WSMR: One year on

[SprinterMan]

Try it again I have fixed the link

Much better thanks
I edited in the link in my quote so that works now too.
Thank you :P

How do you do the "Technical" thing?

 

[All Line Rover]

You can check on the advanced mode of websites like Open Train Times what type of train any service is booked to be (listed under "Technical").

Now that is useful! Thanks.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If you looks at the revenue and journey increases for International right through to Salop and beyond (which obviously you cant !) - there are substantial increases in volume and cash. BH Int makes a lot of sense on the northbound as opposed to changing at New Street - choice of seats to begin with ! A suitable extension in my opinion - even Wales and West had a few starters there "back in the day"......

As I said when theirs something on at NEC there packed to the gunnels- but rest of time? Chiltern have extended there via High Wycombe fares to Shrewsbury and a lot of folk are now changing to Moor St rather than pay more for Virgin. My local independent agent Newtown Station travel is encouraging all leisure trips from Mid Wales this way now.

I can remember BR doing the odd INTL start when I was at Cov Poly!

 

[Proud Salopian]

WSMR was a great era in Shropshire railway history, albeit a short-lived one.

It could have succeeded if it weren't for the restrictions placed on it by "the system".

Either we have a proper open private TOC railway system, where everything is open-access (the actual infrastructure can be owned by one company - be it privately owned or nationalised), or we have a single (British Rail) system, be it public or private. Sadly we have an in-between mess which does't allow for excellent truly private set-ups like WSMR.

Shrewsbury and Telford should have a direct service to London. Yes, you can always connect at Wolverhampton blah blah. But the two towns have a combined population of over 200,000 for goodness sake. And they lie on an obvious (and historic) extension of the existing Wolverhampton-London service.

Our only hope is for Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury to be electrified... some hope. If HS2 is built then such an electrification would also allow for a regular semi-fast Shrewsbury-Euston service via the WCML.

Sadly this is all in the quite distant future and as "the system" isn't going to be changed the most Shrewsbury & Telford can hope for is a token direct train in the morning and another in the evening. It's all quite ridiculous. Either a diesel-powered service from Shrewsbury to London should exist, along the lines of what WSMR provided, or Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton should be electrified and a proper inter-city service to London established via the WCML, even prior to HS2.

WSMR didn't do quick, but was excellent for leisure journeys into London. It was quite well used (I say that but often it was packed with people) and was very highly regarded. ATW and Virgin were rightly worried about the service, for it showed what could be done. As for ATW's suggestion of running a 158 to London... FFS. Who the heck would want to sit on a 158 all the way to London?! It's bad enough Shrewsbury-Aber.

 

[frodshamfella]

I loved the service, and although it was a long way round for me to get to London (normally travel from Runcorn) I did it several times, first class was fantastic and the food served was a million miles from what Virgin serve up. I often thought had the service been able to continue onwards from Wrexham to Chester, that would have given a boost to the service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

WSMR was a great era in Shropshire railway history, albeit a short-lived one.

It could have succeeded if it weren't for the restrictions placed on it by "the system".

Either we have a proper open private TOC railway system, where everything is open-access (the actual infrastructure can be owned by one company - be it privately owned or nationalised), or we have a single (British Rail) system, be it public or private. Sadly we have an in-between mess which does't allow for excellent truly private set-ups like WSMR.

Shrewsbury and Telford should have a direct service to London. Yes, you can always connect at Wolverhampton blah blah. But the two towns have a combined population of over 200,000 for goodness sake. And they lie on an obvious (and historic) extension of the existing Wolverhampton-London service.

Our only hope is for Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury to be electrified... some hope. If HS2 is built then such an electrification would also allow for a regular semi-fast Shrewsbury-Euston service via the WCML.

Sadly this is all in the quite distant future and as "the system" isn't going to be changed the most Shrewsbury & Telford can hope for is a token direct train in the morning and another in the evening. It's all quite ridiculous. Either a diesel-powered service from Shrewsbury to London should exist, along the lines of what WSMR provided, or Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton should be electrified and a proper inter-city service to London established via the WCML, even prior to HS2.

WSMR didn't do quick, but was excellent for leisure journeys into London. It was quite well used (I say that but often it was packed with people) and was very highly regarded. ATW and Virgin were rightly worried about the service, for it showed what could be done. As for ATW's suggestion of running a 158 to London... FFS. Who the heck would want to sit on a 158 all the way to London?! It's bad enough Shrewsbury-Aber.

Couldn't put it better myself though refurbed 158's are a step up. Try a 158 doing a Holyhead to Cardiff service as they increasingly are since Whitland crash and WAG 2 has deprived franchise of 2 Class 175's. Though most journeys on these runs are local as overall numbers of through passengers spread across the 9 direct north to south trains a day are relatively small.

 

[merlodlliw]

WSMR was a great era in Shropshire railway history, albeit a short-lived one.

It could have succeeded if it weren't for the restrictions placed on it by "the system".




WSMR didn't do quick, but was excellent for leisure journeys into London. It was quite well used (I say that but often it was packed with people) and was very highly regarded. ATW and Virgin were rightly worried about the service, for it showed what could be done. As for ATW's suggestion of running a 158 to London... FFS. Who the heck would want to sit on a 158 all the way to London?! It's bad enough Shrewsbury-Aber.

I agree with you proud Salopian.

Who indeed would want to sit on a 158 from Aberyswyth to London. it was never going to run, having studied the costing/staff to include travelling fitter on each train/robbing two 158 units off the franchise for open access(ATW are good at this) and finally fudged numbers of passengers, little wonder the ORR said no.

Would ATW have invented this Aberyswyth to London open access idea if W/S were not running, no

Bob

 

[tbtc]

Who indeed would want to sit on a 158 from Aberyswyth to London

Or sit on a 158 from Swansea to Waterloo, as British Rail/ Wales & West used to do?

 

[merlodlliw]

Or sit on a 158 from Swansea to Waterloo, as British Rail/ Wales & West used to do?

Indeed one service, Wales & West ran a 158 service Manchester to Waterloo via Shrewsbury, taking the left fork just before Newport(only called at Newport on the down service). If I recall it took over six hours & often failed, one of the failed units was shown on BBC when the CEO of WAGN if I recall, pointed it out stuck in a bay at one of his stations when he was filmed meeting his staff,
The entire concept of running this 158 out of area was never thought out by Wales & West. I often saw this two coach 158 at Shrewsbury, Im sure no one travelled from Manchester to Waterloo on it except staff.

Another strange idea was WAG funding a two coach 158 Cardiff to Holyhead via Wrexham, WAG paid £ million for the experiment, this service called at every station from Shrewsbury to Holyhead,and actually called at Llandudno Junction twice both up and down, due to its route that included Llandudno.
this Journey lasted over six hours up & down, few used it, years later they down t seem to have learned, WAG EXs come to mind especially WAG2.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed one service, Wales & West ran a 158 service Manchester to Waterloo via Shrewsbury, taking the left fork just before Newport(only called at Newport on the down service). If I recall it took over six hours & often failed, one of the failed units was shown on BBC when the CEO of WAGN if I recall, pointed it out stuck in a bay at one of his stations when he was filmed meeting his staff,
The entire concept of running this 158 out of area was never thought out by Wales & West. I often saw this two coach 158 at Shrewsbury, Im sure no one travelled from Manchester to Waterloo on it except staff.

Agree the diagramming of a non standard DMU miles from its home base was sub optimal but the train was actually used quite well not by through traffic from Manchester to Waterloo but into Bristol from Marches/Abergavenney/Cwmbran as were the Penzance and Portsmouth trains that W&W ran after all that's a real market. A few used it to London as cheap alternative to changing at Newport for FGW fare rip off.

Bristol - flushed away to try and grow North to South Wales traffic. Shrewsbury now has 30 trains a day to CDF if you include the HOW diagram.

 

[WestCoast]

This has nothing to with the proposed service, but I find 158s more comfortable than Voyagers and would be quite happy spending up to 4 hours or so on one!

 

[SprinterMan]

Another strange idea was WAG funding a two coach 158 Cardiff to Holyhead via Wrexham, WAG paid £ million for the experiment, this service called at every station from Shrewsbury to Holyhead,and actually called at Llandudno Junction twice both up and down, due to its route that included Llandudno.
this Journey lasted over six hours up & down, few used it, years later they down t seem to have learned, WAG EXs come to mind especially WAG2.

I have a 2000 national rail timetable and the calling pattern of this service from shrewsbury onwards is: Shrewsbury - Gobowen - Wrexham General - Chester - Flint - Prestatyn - Rhyl - Abergele & Pensarn - Colwyn Bay - Llandudno Junction - Llandudno - Llandudno Junction - Conwy (not x) - Bangor - Holyhead. It was nice to see Conwy with a non request service.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Indeed one service, Wales & West ran a 158 service Manchester to Waterloo via Shrewsbury, taking the left fork just before Newport(only called at Newport on the down service). If I recall it took over six hours & often failed, one of the failed units was shown on BBC when the CEO of WAGN if I recall, pointed it out stuck in a bay at one of his stations when he was filmed meeting his staff,
The entire concept of running this 158 out of area was never thought out by Wales & West. I often saw this two coach 158 at Shrewsbury, Im sure no one travelled from Manchester to Waterloo on it except staff.

Agree the diagramming of a non standard DMU miles from its home base was sub optimal but the train was actually used quite well not by through traffic from Manchester to Waterloo but into Bristol from Marches/Abergavenney/Cwmbran as were the Penzance and Portsmouth trains that W&W ran after all that's a real market. A few used it to London as cheap alternative to changing at Newport for FGW fare rip off.

Bristol - flushed away to try and grow North to South Wales traffic. Shrewsbury now has 30 trains a day to CDF if you include the HOW diagram.

I think the MAN/Waterloo services may have been bought in to assist EuroStar Passengers when they went from WAT. There were a few odd services to WAT then including some IC from the Eastcoast and from South Wales & Penzance too. The only one that remains in a different form is about 3 or 4 Times a day, WAT/BRS T/M that joins/divides from some of the xx20 WAT/EXE S/D trains at Salisbury, & Rtn. I have used that quite often and as I live in SWT surbanland it is more convenient that hvg to go over to Paddington, & I am happy with the little DMU trains SWT use in STD class rather than FGW stock which seems to be very crowded now.

BTW, I did tvl on WSR a couple of times, such a shame they stopped, the rolling stock, catering especially and service was great. Hope their staff have all been re-emplyed. I want to tvl sometime on their coaches on the loco hauled services from MLB to Brum or VV.

 

[tbtc]

Bristol - flushed away to try and grow North to South Wales traffic. Shrewsbury now has 30 trains a day to CDF if you include the HOW diagram.

Aye, what a difference an administrative border makes... Disappointing that the Bristol service was axed, especially as there was potential for something like Bristol - Shrewsbury - Liverpool (due to the cutbacks on services through Birmingham)

 

[merlodlliw]

I have a 2000 national rail timetable and the calling pattern of this service from shrewsbury onwards is: Shrewsbury - Gobowen - Wrexham General - Chester - Flint - Prestatyn - Rhyl - Abergele & Pensarn - Colwyn Bay - Llandudno Junction - Llandudno - Llandudno Junction - Conwy (not x) - Bangor - Holyhead. It was nice to see Conwy with a non request service.

Thanks for that, I forgot about Chirk & Ruabon part of Wrexham County,even 12 years ago WAG were thinking of counties as one stop.

That LLandudno Junction/Llandudno/Llandudno Junction both ways route could only have been dreamed up in Cardiff, in my opinion


Bob

 

[Ivo]

That Llandudno one seems highly odd. I can't imagine a train doing something like London > Colchester - Colchester Town - Colchester > Ipswich etc, or London/Bristol > Exeter St David's - Exeter Central - Exeter St David's > Plymouth etc...

Aye, what a difference an administrative border makes... Disappointing that the Bristol service was axed, especially as there was potential for something like Bristol - Shrewsbury - Liverpool (due to the cutbacks on services through Birmingham)

I seem to recall you proposing that before now...!

I think the MAN/Waterloo services may have been bought in to assist EuroStar Passengers when they went from WAT. There were a few odd services to WAT then including some IC from the Eastcoast and from South Wales & Penzance too. The only one that remains in a different form is about 3 or 4 Times a day, WAT/BRS T/M that joins/divides from some of the xx20 WAT/EXE S/D trains at Salisbury, & Rtn. I have used that quite often and as I live in SWT surbanland it is more convenient that hvg to go over to Paddington, & I am happy with the little DMU trains SWT use in STD class rather than FGW stock which seems to be very crowded now.

BTW, I did tvl on WSR a couple of times, such a shame they stopped, the rolling stock, catering especially and service was great. Hope their staff have all been re-emplyed. I want to tvl sometime on their coaches on the loco hauled services from MLB to Brum or VV.

Please forgive my saying this, bu this post isn't that clear. I assume "tvl" means "travel", and there are several stations with the incorrect code (even ignoring things like "T/M"), but I still can't make perfect sense of it

 

[tbtc]

That Llandudno one seems highly odd. I can't imagine a train doing something like London > Colchester - Colchester Town - Colchester > Ipswich etc, or London/Bristol > Exeter St David's - Exeter Central - Exeter St David's > Plymouth etc...

It looks like a box ticking exercise so that politicians can boast about linking a lot of places whilst only paying for one train.

Then again there have been some odd reversals like that, I am fairly sure that there used to be a cross country service up the WCML which did something like Birmingham/Manchester - Carlisle - Glasgow Central - Edinburgh. Or it may have been Edinburgh then Glasgow. Either way, you passed through Carstairs twice to get to your destination.

I seem to recall you proposing that before now...!

Yup, I am that predictable

It could be such a busy line, through Shrewsbury, the Marches operator could compete with the Cross Country operator for longer distance passengers. But I imagine that the future for the line will involve strings being puled at Cardiff Bay to ensure local trains for local people...

 

[jones_bangor]

Bristol - flushed away to try and grow North to South Wales traffic. Shrewsbury now has 30 trains a day to CDF if you include the HOW diagram.

Clearly you have an issue with this - you give the impression you'd like to turn the devolution clock back - a modern day King Canute?

Nevertheless, a bit of research shows a train from Cardiff Central to Parkway every 20-30 minutes, and to Temple Meads precisely every 30 minutes.

Flushed away?

This has nothing to with the proposed service, but I find 158s more comfortable than Voyagers and would be quite happy spending up to 4 hours or so on one!

lol - I cannot believe anyone would prefer a vibrating, noisy 158 with broken air con to a smooth comfortable Voyager!

 

[Eagle]

This has nothing to with the proposed service, but I find 158s more comfortable than Voyagers and would be quite happy spending up to 4 hours or so on one!

Try VXC's old Portsmouth–Guildford–Reading–Solihull–Birmingham–Crewe–Preston–Blackpool service then; I believe that used 158s.

 

[tbtc]

Clearly you have an issue with this - you give the impression you'd like to turn the devolution clock back - a modern day King Canute?

You admit that the Holyhead - Cardiff service has more to do with politicians than actual demand then?

 

[jones_bangor]

You admit that the Holyhead - Cardiff service has more to do with politicians than actual demand then?

Yes and no. A lot more people need to get North - South since devolution, which was a political move, but a lot of the better paid jobs in Wales are down there now as well.

But I really do disagree with the supposition that the improved North - South connectivity has negatively impacted on other services.

I hope politicians in Wales get a lot more engaged in rail - rather than road.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

That Llandudno one seems highly odd. I can't imagine a train doing something like London > Colchester - Colchester Town - Colchester > Ipswich etc, or London/Bristol > Exeter St David's - Exeter Central - Exeter St David's > Plymouth etc...



I seem to recall you proposing that before now...!



Please forgive my saying this, bu this post isn't that clear. I assume "tvl" means "travel", and there are several stations with the incorrect code (even ignoring things like "T/M"), but I still can't make perfect sense of it

Sorry, I was very tired whe I wrote that posting and being rather lazy, I will write the names in full next time.

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes and no. A lot more people need to get North - South since devolution, which was a political move, but a lot of the better paid jobs in Wales are down there now as well.

But I really do disagree with the supposition that the improved North - South connectivity has negatively impacted on other services.

I hope politicians in Wales get a lot more engaged in rail - rather than road.

Indeed I agree the better paid Welsh Jobs have been put in Cardiff due to Politics, but the majority of people in the North don't commute to Cardiff on a basis to get to work, plus the two 175 sets for WAG2 has impacted on other services, these trains were robbed out of the franchise and would be better placed in the franchise again,other than standing in Cardiff for six hours.

my opinion

Bob

 

[tbtc]

I really do disagree with the supposition that the improved North - South connectivity has negatively impacted on other services

A few years ago (Wales & West days IIRC) there were services on the Marches line to/from Liverpool/ Bristol (and beyond), as well as a daily Holyhead - Cardiff service.

Now the Holyhead - Cardiff service is every couple of hours (plus the peak extra) whilst the links to Liverpool/ Bristol etc have been chopped. Other cuts include Holyhead - Manchester (which used to be fairly busy in FNW days).

There aren't more significantly trains nowadays, so the nine (?) a day from Holyhead to Cardiff have come at the cost of some other services.

 

[Proud Salopian]

There was also the Wales & West train down to Penzance! I remember getting it from Shrewsbury to St Austell.

 

[JamesM]

As a resident who used the service, let me tell you my thought on why it died. It was big at the weekends, people used it to go to Wolverhampton from Wrexham and maybe change to Birmingham, or people from Shrewsbury used it to get to London etc etc. At the weekends, you mind less about the length of time it takes you into London, enjoying the big seats and, eventually, the wifi!

The thing that was the final nail was the engineering works in the months before they closed - they had months and months of disruption and their website suggested that they often had no idea whether they would be running services and when they would be until the very last minute (so for instance I remember looking midweek for services that weekend and nothing could be confirmed - even a couple of days before).

So you couldn't get advance tickets, they couldn't tell you whether certain services would be running and the whole thing, probably through little fault of their own, was shambolic. Communication became complicated and added to the additional time that the engineering work added (and bus services!!) it was just all over for them.

As a typical customer, it just became much easier to drive to Crewe, where I would know that the services were running and if they did have a problem with engineering work, at least I would be able to get home.

Engineering work in the months before the closure killed that service. I felt very sorry for them.

 

[merlodlliw]

Indeed James, a big contributor to the demise,as was the increase in Diesel,but DB decided to kill it off for other use of its stock.

A agree the engineering diversions played a big part, but without the engineering diversions DB would still have switched the stock into Birmingham Moor St.

Bob

 

[steve099]

Indeed James, a big contributor to the demise,as was the increase in Diesel,but DB decided to kill it off for other use of its stock.

A agree the engineering diversions played a big part, but without the engineering diversions DB would still have switched the stock into Birmingham Moor St.

Bob

By extension, I wonder if we could attribute the farcical situation with acquiring new rolling stock in this country to ultimately killing the service.

I must admit, as an otherwise regular user of DMU units, the serenity of WSMR's loco-hauled sets was fantastic. Perhaps we should follow a European push-pull locomotive model for new train orders (on regional intercity routes)?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes and no. A lot more people need to get North - South since devolution, which was a political move, but a lot of the better paid jobs in Wales are down there now as well.

But I really do disagree with the supposition that the improved North - South connectivity has negatively impacted on other services.

I hope politicians in Wales get a lot more engaged in rail - rather than road.

The wales and border franchise received no new rolling stock from what was operating before Dec 03 so the switch in services in Dec 05 had to come from robbing Peter to pay Paul simple.

The angst about north to south trains would be a lost less if those through trains to Bristol/Liverpool had been retained. I would prefer to see half the north to south trains go and replaced by through trains to Bristol from the Marches as this would serve real markets better yes. And the remaining North to south trains be proper expresses rather than cobbled together local trains. I'll have my red shirt on this weekend and will be hauling myself down to South Wales by train regularly over the next few weeks. Having done it for 10 years now I know the market - the gross numbers doing it are relatively small. There's more demand for travel to Manchester from Mid Wales much of it lost to rail due the appalling connections in Shrewsbury yet we have perfect connections to Cardiff that attract a mere handful of passengers.