XC Voyager Refurbishment

[AlterEgo]

Horrible seats in first class; understand these are the same as the ones in the Evero trains. Ghastly, uncomfortable, narrow.

 

[The_Train]

Horrible seats in first class; understand these are the same as the ones in the Evero trains. Ghastly, uncomfortable, narrow.

Sad really that 1st class is no longer a premium area, it's pretty much now just there to guarantee a seat (and even that fails sometimes). How have we managed to from the comfort of 1st class layouts like the GWR HSTs and other Mk3 examples, to this in the space of 10 years?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sad really that 1st class is no longer a premium area, it's pretty much now just there to guarantee a seat (and even that fails sometimes). How have we managed to from the comfort of 1st class layouts like the GWR HSTs and other Mk3 examples, to this in the space of 10 years?

It's no longer a premium business offering as businesses won't pay for it, so as a leisure/self upgrade product it has to be a bit cheaper.

 

[Trainman40083]

If anyone can sit in those rancid toilets for the entirety of their journey, they deserve to travel for free

I so agree with you. Saw it happen on a HST back from Bristol..Some passengers seemed ready to kick the door down, such was their need.. Sorry , you only need so many someone for the loo...

 

[Halish Railway]

It's no longer a premium business offering as businesses won't pay for it, so as a leisure/self upgrade product it has to be a bit cheaper.

But with only 26 or 52 seats per train that could quickly sell out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But with only 26 or 52 seats per train that could quickly sell out.

I'm not suggesting they are going to make it any cheaper, just that it isn't now as expensive as it could have been if business still paid for it.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Sad really that 1st class is no longer a premium area, it's pretty much now just there to guarantee a seat (and even that fails sometimes). How have we managed to from the comfort of 1st class layouts like the GWR HSTs and other Mk3 examples, to this in the space of 10 years?

Particularly considering how much of a premium Cross Country charges for First Class on their trains.

 

[RailWonderer]

Particularly considering how much of a premium Cross Country charges for First Class on their trains.

I think they know some will pay a large premium just to get a seat for a potentially long distance journey with a faint chance of a free bacon roll and tea or whatever it is the XC trolley offers these days.

First is often at least double the price of standard in the UK unlike Europe where it's 10-20% more, but we always justified it with a larger lower density seat, complimentary food and lounges. Now these are being eroded the TOCs are ruining their value case, besides XC who knows then can because they are chronically overcrowded.

 

[GoneSouth]

Particularly considering how much of a premium Cross Country charges for First Class on their trains.

They do a pretty good job at charging a premium for standard class too

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with a faint chance of a free bacon roll and tea or whatever it is the XC trolley offers these days.

Generally they offer nothing because they can’t be bothered to offer the service.

If first class includes free food and drink why do they make first class passengers walk the length of the train to get it as the trolley is generally parked at the back of coach F. Maybe positioning it there will cost them less in free food as not many bother to walk the length (all 3 coaches) of the train to collect it.

 

[Trainman40083]

They do a pretty good job at charging a premium for standard class too

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Generally they offer nothing because they can’t be bothered to offer the service.

If first class includes free food and drink why do they make first class passengers walk the length of the train to get it as the trolley is generally parked at the back of coach F. Maybe positioning it there will cost them less in free food as not many bother to walk the length (all 3 coaches) of the train to collect it.

I remember someone asking XC about the first class offering on the Derby to Cardiff service. They got told they got a wider seat. Food and drink? Doubtful, there may not be a trolley. WiFi, probably not. So why bother?

 

[GoneSouth]

I remember someone asking XC about the first class offering on the Derby to Cardiff service. They got told they got a wider seat. Food and drink? Doubtful, there may not be a trolley. WiFi, probably not. So why bother?

There won’t even be a train at the moment given their timetable changes last week

 

[Jimini]

To be fair, my journey with XC in first today was great. Very attentive and cheery staff. Had two brews, a rather nice chicken, bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich, two packets of crisps and a cake, all washed down with a tin of Coke.

Granted, it can be hit and miss (I’ve been vocal on this topic numerous times before), but credit where credit’s due to today’s crew (Reading to Manchester).

 

[Trainman40083]

There won’t even be a train at the moment given their timetable changes last week

I'll think about using Cross Country again, if they ever go back to a full service...I have to say half hourly on key flows was attractive.. A packed hourly service, even if two units (on a good day) less so..

 

[GoneSouth]

I'll think about using Cross Country again, if they ever go back to a full service...I have to say half hourly on key flows was attractive.. A packed hourly service, even if two units (on a good day) less so..

Sadly some of us don’t have any choice, which was the huge lie at privatisation in the first place

 

[Thunderer]

Those proposed 1st class seats look thin, hard and potentially uncomfortable for long journeys. Its hardly a premium product is it? Yet XC always charge a very “premium” price for 1st Class. I’ve stopped using XC completely for our summer trips to/from Devon since they canned the HST’s almost a year ago. We used to go 1st class on the XC HST between Bristol and Devon, but with a Voyager, you can’t even guarantee a 1st class seat by the time it gets to Bristol from the North. We now catch the GWR IET from South Wales to Devon instead, which ensures we get a seat (The lesser of two evils). Voyagers are simply no good for long distance services and they never really were. Giving them a new, hideous paint job where nothing matches at all and a drab “office style” grey interior with thin, hard seats is just the same as polishing a t*rd. This, coupled with their eye-watering ticket prices will surely see even more people take to the road. The rail passenger is now seen as a cash cow to fleece and to treat with contempt.

 

[D365]

So is Derby's gain Widnes's loss?

Is Widnes short on work post-Pendolino?

 

[Trainman40083]

Is Widnes short on work post-Pendolino?

Are they still doing work on the 458 EMUs?

 

[vuzzeho]

Those proposed 1st class seats look thin, hard and potentially uncomfortable for long journeys. Its hardly a premium product is it? Yet XC always charge a very “premium” price for 1st Class. I’ve stopped using XC completely for our summer trips to/from Devon since they canned the HST’s almost a year ago. We used to go 1st class on the XC HST between Bristol and Devon, but with a Voyager, you can’t even guarantee a 1st class seat by the time it gets to Bristol from the North. We now catch the GWR IET from South Wales to Devon instead, which ensures we get a seat (The lesser of two evils). Voyagers are simply no good for long distance services and they never really were. Giving them a new, hideous paint job where nothing matches at all and a drab “office style” grey interior with thin, hard seats is just the same as polishing a t*rd. This, coupled with their eye-watering ticket prices will surely see even more people take to the road. The rail passenger is now seen as a cash cow to fleece and to treat with contempt.

Maybe it's worth waiting until the seats are in service before making such a judgement on them...

 

[Carntyne]

Those proposed 1st class seats look thin, hard and potentially uncomfortable for long journeys.

It's an artists impression of a seat - how can you tell how hard or uncomfortable it'll be?

 

[Davester50]

Giving them a new, hideous paint job where nothing matches at all and a drab “office style” grey interior

The paint is nasty. It's a bit Fischer-Price, but at least you don't have to see it when you're on board.
I quite like the grey. Much fresher than the turn of the century era colours anyway.

 

[Trainman40083]

The paint is nasty. It's a bit Fischer-Price, but at least you don't have to see it when you're on board.
I quite like the grey. Much fresher than the turn of the century era colours anyway.

If all trains had the same grey interiors, they could swap between operators and no-one would notice

 

[GoneSouth]

Maybe it's worth waiting until the seats are in service before making such a judgement on them...

And last time I looked GWR had a very similar drab office grey inferior, hard seats but with the added advantage of blindingly bright not fit for purpose lighting.

Price is possibly the only factor in their favour,

 

[Mollman]

Are they still doing work on the 458 EMUs?

Yes but I expect that to be coming to an end before the Voyager work does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's an artists impression of a seat - how can you tell how hard or uncomfortable it'll be?

Because one can sit on the seat in Avanti 80x and GA FLIRTs.

 

[childwallblues]

Are they still doing work on the 458 EMUs?

They are still doing 458s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Because one can sit on the seat in Avanti 80x and GA FLIRTs.

The Fisa LEAN seats used in the refurbished 458/4s are incredibly comfortable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Fisa LEAN seats used in the refurbished 458/4s are incredibly comfortable.

They're not the worst seat, but the poor design of the back means you get poor legroom. Similar to the originals to be fair, though much, much harder.

For optimal legroom you want "niches" at the sides, not in the middle, as per the new seat used by Avanti. This is because most tall people are men, and most men have relatively narrow pelvises and sit comfortably with legs slightly apart (plus that diagonal means more legroom than straight forward).

However, all that said, they're an extremely poor First Class product - they're just an average Standard seat, and just adding a second armrest between the two seats doesn't turn it into a First Class seat as comfortable as the excellent originals.

 

[Thunderer]

It's an artists impression of a seat - how can you tell how hard or uncomfortable it'll be?

The answer to that is nearly all modern trains are using the same variant of these thin, hard seats. Do you think XC will be any different with this refresh? Remember, capacity is limited on these trains, so any space gained by using thinner seats would potentially mean more seats or luggage space on board. Ether way, they’ll be more than happy to sacrifice passenger comfort for more space.

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Maybe it's worth waiting until the seats are in service before making such a judgement on them...

Or, put it another way then, do you think the new seats are likely to be thinner and less comfortable than the ones they will replace…or, do you think they will actually make them even more comfortable? Option 1 is far more likely to be the eventual reality, as thinner seats will free up space for more seats and/or luggage space…something that would be a bonus for the operator, taking into consideration the limited space and seats a single XC 220/221 currently provides for long distance operation.

 

[fgwrich]

They're not the worst seat, but the poor design of the back means you get poor legroom. Similar to the originals to be fair, though much, much harder.

For optimal legroom you want "niches" at the sides, not in the middle, as per the new seat used by Avanti. This is because most tall people are men, and most men have relatively narrow pelvises and sit comfortably with legs slightly apart (plus that diagonal means more legroom than straight forward).

However, all that said, they're an extremely poor First Class product - they're just an average Standard seat, and just adding a second armrest between the two seats doesn't turn it into a First Class seat as comfortable as the excellent originals.

No version of it can be as bad as the version on SWR's 444 First Class though. A huge downgrade there, hard upright and disappointing.

 

[TheGuy77]

I've a lot of things to say:

1. Will this solve overcrowding?
2. There will still be no USB sockets in First Class, compared to standard.
3. Will we see the end of 4-car operations on Edinburgh-Plymouth?
4. Will there be automated announcements?
5. Would it be better to get brand new trains in addition or in lieu of the refurbished voyagers?