XC Voyager Refurbishment

[takno]

I 100% genuinely I don't get the hate with IET seats. Shows how subjective it all is.

Is it down to people wanting to slouch on the seats or something?

I've done Aberdeen-Kings Cross followed by Paddington-Penzance before without the slightest hint of discomfort beyond the sleep deprecation of having roughed it without a bed on the ferry to and from Shetland for the previous two nights. I do lengthy journeys on the TPE units with the same seats too, and also have no issue there. Also, they don't seem to attract nearly as much criticism on TPE (or Hull Trains for that matter) as they did on GWR/LNER for some reason.

I've seen posters on here say they're fine for some people but bigger built people will hate them. I'm not exactly light and have no issues.

I suspect the problem with them is that some people have no issue with them at all, but for people who do have a problem the problem is that they are extraordinarily uncomfortable, and can result in pain which can last for hours afterwards. I think for me it's probably the way that it actively forces my back into a position my back won't normally go. It's entirely in how upright the back is.

Fainsas are very firmly-padded and not-exactly luxurious, but that's also somewhat true of most of the Leans, and to an extent also the refurbished seats on mark 4s. I can travel 5 hours on poor padding, but I just can't travel on LNER standard class anymore.

All beside the point because nobody is threatening to put Fainsas into XC stock.

 

[185143]

I suspect the problem with them is that some people have no issue with them at all, but for people who do have a problem the problem is that they are extraordinarily uncomfortable, and can result in pain which can last for hours afterwards. I think for me it's probably the way that it actively forces my back into a position my back won't normally go. It's entirely in how upright the back is.

Fainsas are very firmly-padded and not-exactly luxurious, but that's also somewhat true of most of the Leans, and to an extent also the refurbished seats on mark 4s. I can travel 5 hours on poor padding, but I just can't travel on LNER standard class anymore.

All beside the point because nobody is threatening to put Fainsas into XC stock.

Interesting, as I find a long journey on a Mk4 to be unpleasant. Not to the extent that I'd pay more to avoid one, but it is noticeable.

Certainly I'd view a swap to an Azuma as an upgrade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting, as I find a long journey on a Mk4 to be unpleasant. Not to the extent that I'd pay more to avoid one, but it is noticeable.

Certainly I'd view a swap to an Azuma as an upgrade.

Mk4s are tatty, old, built down to a price and ride like a cart. But Sophias are horrible. Hobson's choice there, if I didn't dislike Lumo so much for their general approach I guess I'd pick them!

Assuming the legroom isn't poor we may well end up in the position where the Voyagers are the nicest thing on the ECML

 

[185143]

Mk4s are tatty, old, built down to a price and ride like a cart. But Sophias are horrible. Hobson's choice there, if I didn't dislike Lumo so much for their general approach I guess I'd pick them!

Assuming the legroom isn't poor we may well end up in the position where the Voyagers are the nicest thing on the ECML

Which as I've said in another thread is no issue to me at all

I get what you mean about Lumo, but I did Edinburgh-London with them a few weeks back, no complaints at all. Their exclusive booze was pretty good to sample 2 or 6 of on the way down too.

 

[Russel]

Used a couple of the Avanti units that have transferred over to XC recently, they certainly put the native units to shame.

But, it did make me think, is the full refurb really needed, the avanti units with new seat coverings and carpet look clean and fresh...

 

[voyagerdude220]

Used a couple of the Avanti units that have transferred over to XC recently, they certainly put the native units to shame.

But, it did make me think, is the full refurb really needed, the avanti units with new seat coverings and carpet look clean and fresh...

I strongly agree with you. I've always greatly preferred the (now ex) Avanti 221s to the Cross Country 220/221s. Apologies for going off topic, how many additional seats do the XC 5 cars have compared with the Avanti ones with Shops in?

It's a shame they can't just bring the entire XC 220/221 fleet to mirror the ex Avanti 221s, both in terms of nicer seats etc. but also Shop instead of at seat, better First Class food (hot breakfast/all day hot meals which Avanti offered on their 221s) and the extra CCTV cameras dotted around. It would probably cost less than the proposed refurbishment, particularly if the current 220/221s still had the Shops in place.

 

[irish_rail]

Used a couple of the Avanti units that have transferred over to XC recently, they certainly put the native units to shame.

But, it did make me think, is the full refurb really needed, the avanti units with new seat coverings and carpet look clean and fresh...

Where are these sets? I haven't seen a single Avanti set this week on the Plymouth run, and I've worked every day. All I've seen is 4s and 8s, none of the luxury ex avanti stock! Certainly seem to be fewer 5s knocking about in general these days since the TT change, all anecdotal admittedly, but can't help but feel jealous of the lack of avanti sets coming down west!

 

[Energy]

Where are these sets? I haven't seen a single Avanti set this week on the Plymouth run, and I've worked every day. All I've seen is 4s and 8s, none of the luxury ex avanti stock! Certainly seem to be fewer 5s knocking about in general these days since the TT change, all anecdotal admittedly, but can't help but feel jealous of the lack of avanti sets coming down west!

05/06/2025 - 11:27 Plymouth to Glasgow Central Birmingham New St

I was on this service, so I can confirm it was an Avanti set! The interior was in good condition, and no one was standing. The extra car over a 4-car set really helps. Unfortunately, there was a cab issue, so a turnaround at Gloucester, and other technical issues caused it to be cancelled short at Birmingham.

Virgin were planning on making all the class 220s 6-car had they won XC again, makes you wonder what state XC would be in had it not gone to Arriva.

 

[Transilien]

Virgin were planning on making all the class 220s 6-car had they won XC again, makes you wonder what state XC would be in had it not gone to Arriva.

This would have only been the case if the DFT approved it. Given their love affair with savings over all else, Virgin probably wouldn't have got what they wanted.

 

[sprinterguy]

Where are these sets? I haven't seen a single Avanti set this week on the Plymouth run, and I've worked every day. All I've seen is 4s and 8s, none of the luxury ex avanti stock! Certainly seem to be fewer 5s knocking about in general these days since the TT change, all anecdotal admittedly, but can't help but feel jealous of the lack of avanti sets coming down west!

Ex-Avanti sets were on the 06:20 Plymouth - Edinburgh, 09:27 Plymouth - Aberdeen, 11:27 Plymouth - Glasgow and 14:27 Plymouth - Edinburgh today. There were three of the sets on services to/from Plymouth yesterday, and four the day before.

 

[irish_rail]

Ex-Avanti sets were on the 06:20 Plymouth - Edinburgh, 09:27 Plymouth - Aberdeen, 11:27 Plymouth - Glasgow and 14:27 Plymouth - Edinburgh today. There were three of the sets on services to/from Plymouth yesterday, and four the day before.

I must be just avoiding them somehow!

 

[Wyrleybart]

Virgin were planning on making all the class 220s 6-car had they won XC again, makes you wonder what state XC would be in had it not gone to Arriva.

Do you think that would really have happened though - in reality ?
It would have meant Bombardier reactivating the jigs in their Belgian factory where the voyager bodyshells were built, and I believe those jigs were scrapped not long too after the voyagers were brought into service.

I had always hoped Project Thor would have gone ahead using factory floor altered "Aventra" bodyshells, and with the pantograph wells from the AC design.

Obviously with voyagers at 25 years old it is never going to happen, but a huge opportunity lost.

 

[Russel]

I must be just avoiding them somehow!

I know what you mean, it's only over the last couple of weeks that I've finally caught a couple of the ex-Avanti sets, odd when you think the first couple transferred over around 12 months ago!

 

[occone]

Used a couple of the Avanti units that have transferred over to XC recently, they certainly put the native units to shame

I've found the same - what I'd like to know is if this difference mostly due to things above the floor or below the floor.

So while XC native units have lots of panels that rattle and shake a great deal, the refurb should help with this. But the Avanti units seem to be a much smoother ride overall, which makes me think it's something technical and not cosmetic.

 

[Russel]

I've found the same - what I'd like to know is if this difference mostly due to things above the floor or below the floor.

So while XC native units have lots of panels that rattle and shake a great deal, the refurb should help with this. But the Avanti units seem to be a much smoother ride overall, which makes me think it's something technical and not cosmetic.

I'd imagine the XC units have worked a lot harder and put in many more miles than the Avanti units which could explain the smoother ride?

 

[GoneSouth]

I’d love to know how far these units have traveled so far in their lifetimes, how would that compare with an old HST?

Oh Arriva you should look after these trains better, you can’t be trusted to do anything right.

 

[43066]

I'd imagine the XC units have worked a lot harder and put in many more miles than the Avanti units which could explain the smoother ride?

Surely the Avanti units will have done the highest mileages, as they run over a route with higher average speeds than the XC network.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Surely the Avanti units will have done the highest mileages, as they run over a route with higher average speeds than the XC network.

My theory is that the Cross Country ones will have been more heavily used, as they run much longer routes (e.g. Edinburgh to Plymouth) than the Avanti ones did, meaning the Avanti ones will have had more dwell times.

 

[43066]

My theory is that the Cross Country ones will have been more heavily used, as they run much longer routes (e.g. Edinburgh to Plymouth) than the Avanti ones did, meaning the Avanti ones will have had more dwell times.

The length of the XC routes and crowding levels probably mean that the interiors are more worn, irrespective of total mileage.

 

[43055]

Surely the Avanti units will have done the highest mileages, as they run over a route with higher average speeds than the XC network.

The cross country sets are probably more intensely used with longer routes meaning less time stood still. The Avanti units were on routes of around 2 to 4 hours with turnaround times that could be up to 2 hours with the lunch train at Holyhead.

 

[skyhigh]

Surely the Avanti units will have done the highest mileages, as they run over a route with higher average speeds than the XC network.

Just from a quick look - 221101 (Avanti) has a reported lifetime milage of 5302369 miles, 221119 (XC) has a reported 5768412 miles. Others seem to be in a similar area so really a negligible difference.

 

[43066]

My theory is that the Cross Country ones will have been more heavily used, as they run much longer routes (e.g. Edinburgh to Plymouth) than the Avanti ones did, meaning the Avanti ones will have had more dwell times.

The cross country sets are probably more intensely used with longer routes meaning less time stood still. The Avanti units were on routes of around 2 to 4 hours with turnaround times that could be up to 2 hours with the lunch train at Holyhead.

Just from a quick look - 221101 (Avanti) has a reported lifetime milage of 5302369 miles, 221119 (XC) has a reported 5768412 miles. Others seem to be in a similar area so really a negligible difference.

Interesting - thanks all. Longer dwells may well counteract higher speeds - I was forgetting the Avanti units were used on the Holyhead services.

 

[Killingworth]

Just from a quick look - 221101 (Avanti) has a reported lifetime milage of 5302369 miles, 221119 (XC) has a reported 5768412 miles. Others seem to be in a similar area so really a negligible difference.

The mileage alone is a guide but the nature of the respective routes with numbers of stops and passenger loadings also need taking into account - plus maintenence and any refurbishments.

 

[-Colly405-]

That's almost a 9% difference - hardly negligible

 

[AJDesiro]

That's almost a 9% difference - hardly negligible

221101 has been off lease for a few months though. I think one of the main reasons the ex-Avanti sets are in a far better condition is simply down to the fact that Virgin invested more heavily in them, and that they visited Central Rivers far more often than the XC sets.

 

[GoneSouth]

That's almost a 9% difference - hardly negligible

The Avant ones have definitely spent more time in the shed having refurbs than the XC ones, that makes a difference