York 3rd Line Works

[59CosG95]

A lot of incremental changes to the OLE (Overhead Line Equipment) are currently being made in the York area - mainly from Holgate up to about Skelton Jn, but also increasingly from Holgate towards the station itself, and now inside the station proper!
On the two-track section immediately north of the station, numerous Twin Track Cantilevers (TTCs) (all on the Up side) have been installed, but have only registered the OLE on the Down side; As I understand it this allows the Down side Single Track Cantilever (STC) masts etc. to be removed before the new line goes in.
Inside the station itself (between Platforms 3 & 5), and south of the station (on the west side, opposite York Rail Operating Centre (ROC)), new masts/TTCs have gone in for switching/sectioning purposes. (A post on LinkedIn regarding the works has confirmed that this is to allow the short part between York Feeder Station & the northern throat (plus the western platforms) to be isolated for midweek works.)

This LinkedIn post (which I alluded to above) shows the switching elements being installed. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/paul...uo?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop
(edited to provide clarity of terms and minimise jargon)

 

[Scotrail88]

Sorry for missing this previously but what is the actual changes happening in and around York.

Thanks

 

[59CosG95]

Sorry for missing this previously but what is the actual changes happening in and around York.

Thanks

As far as I'm aware, the p-way changes include putting in an additional line between York & Holgate (i.e. past the TPE depot), adapting one of the lines in the sidings (the one next to the Down Fast) beyond Holgate for use as the "3rd line", and (possibly) introducing a double lead junction at Skelton Jn to add resilience for Harrogate trains. This is, however, mainly guesswork informed almost solely from my eyeballs through taking the train past York twice a week or so for the past year and a quarter!

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this the relatively unknown small project that I mentioned in the ECML Dec 2024 timetable thread? I think it was one of the 6 listed improvements that were the known or expected pre-requisites, it’s been referred to as “York Station North Throat” from all the way back in the 2016 ECML 6.5 tph track access application:

East Coast Timetable Dec 24

Poorly loaded? I’ve rarely seen a York - Leeds train, stopping or not that wasn’t busy. Same with the Harrogate extensions; lightly loaded Azumas, busy (but much shorter) Northern sets. But we are talking about full length LNER Azumas. They would not be a good use of resources. Indeed. If...

www.railforums.co.uk

I don’t think it was ever explained exactly what it included and what that should achieved, but @59CosG95 has made it somewhat clearer.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The Harrogate trains cause lots of congestion on the north now they are half hourly. So it effectively gives them their own line to reduce conflicts (not remove). It's gone under radar especially with everything else in York going on.

 

[Seehof]

So what exactly is going to happen at Christmas/New Year? As a former driver of the Harrogate branch - hoorah for the third line!

 

[800001]

So what exactly is going to happen at Christmas/New Year? As a former driver of the Harrogate branch - hoorah for the third line!

I believe Xmas works will Involve something to do with the new road bridge which is currently where all the ground work is just north of the station.

 

[DJ_K666]

So what exactly is going to happen at Christmas/New Year? As a former driver of the Harrogate branch - hoorah for the third line!

I used to travel on that line to see my grandparents. Often trains would have to wait before entering York station. This was in the days of the class 141s

 

[zwk500]

Is this the relatively unknown small project that I mentioned in the ECML Dec 2024 timetable thread? I think it was one of the 6 listed improvements that were the known or expected pre-requisites, it’s been referred to as “York Station North Throat” from all the way back in the 2016 ECML 6.5 tph track access application:

East Coast Timetable Dec 24

Poorly loaded? I’ve rarely seen a York - Leeds train, stopping or not that wasn’t busy. Same with the Harrogate extensions; lightly loaded Azumas, busy (but much shorter) Northern sets. But we are talking about full length LNER Azumas. They would not be a good use of resources. Indeed. If...

www.railforums.co.uk

I don’t think it was ever explained exactly what it included and what that should achieved, but @59CosG95 has made it somewhat clearer.

I believe the changes being made will look something (but not exactly) like those shown above (From https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...Fenton to Newcastle Strategic Advice 2020.pdf)
I'm not sure exactly which crossovers are in and out of the final plans, and I'm very confident no extra platforms form part of the current work.

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe the changes being made will look something (but not exactly) like those shown above (From https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/regional-long-term-planning/Eastern/Church Fenton to Newcastle Strategic Advice 2020.pdf)
I'm not sure exactly which crossovers are in and out of the final plans, and I'm very confident no extra platforms form part of the current work.

Ah yes, I’d forgotten about that document, thanks for reminding us…

 

[IanXC]

I was reading a document relating to these third line works which tied itself in knots over the timetable interventions.

Seems the third line overall improves station capacity, allowing for Harrogate services to be retimed so they can use the same platform, rather than having to alternate, except that the 3rd line won't give access to platform 8....

 

[Northern158170]

I imagine it would still be tight. I assume the stop times each end are dictated by the single line workings and the trains currently pass each other very close to the station

 

[greyman42]

Are they going to widen the rail bridge over Leeman Road to accommodate the new Harrogate line?

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Are they going to widen the rail bridge over Leeman Road to accommodate the new Harrogate line?

A new deck on new abutments on the Siemens depot side of the road. It's a bit tight!

I was reading a document relating to these third line works which tied itself in knots over the timetable interventions.

Seems the third line overall improves station capacity, allowing for Harrogate services to be retimed so they can use the same platform, rather than having to alternate, except that the 3rd line won't give access to platform 8....

Access will be provided for Platform 8. The P8 link to the York Down Fast line is currently proposed to be removed, but there are a few options for the link to be retained with a new alignment.

View attachment 162699

I believe the changes being made will look something (but not exactly) like those shown above (From https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/regional-long-term-planning/Eastern/Church Fenton to Newcastle Strategic Advice 2020.pdf)
I'm not sure exactly which crossovers are in and out of the final plans, and I'm very confident no extra platforms form part of the current work.

 

[greyman42]

A new deck on new abutments on the Siemens depot side of the road. It's a bit tight!

Yes, I didn't think there was a lot of room.

 

[Spartacus]

Access will be provided for Platform 8. The P8 link to the York Down Fast line is currently proposed to be removed, but there are a few options for the link to be retained with a new alignment.

I'm not surprised there's options in to leave the link in. I'm not in favour of keeping links just for the sake of it but given the possible moves involving 9, 10 & 11 and the depot my first impressions are it feels a touch too restrictive to remove it.

 

[geordieblue]

View attachment 167477

Is the Harrogate junction staying single lead then?

 

[zwk500]

A new deck on new abutments on the Siemens depot side of the road. It's a bit tight!


Access will be provided for Platform 8. The P8 link to the York Down Fast line is currently proposed to be removed, but there are a few options for the link to be retained with a new alignment.


View attachment 167477

Much appreciated. It looks tight between 806a and 809 pts, will that allow a parallel departure from 10/11 while a train is arriving into 9/10 from the Fast?

 

[civ-eng-jim]

I'm not surprised there's options in to leave the link in. I'm not in favour of keeping links just for the sake of it but given the possible moves involving 9, 10 & 11 and the depot my first impressions are it feels a touch too restrictive to remove it.

TOCs like the operational flexibility but Network Rail doesn't like the capital cost and ongoing maintenance liability of an extra pair of points in a tight spot.

One principal aim was to remove the need for the Leeds via Harrogate service to run on the ECML Up & Down lines.

Is the Harrogate junction staying single lead then?

Yeah - Anything in black is existing (and to remain) and all the red is new kit.

Is the Harrogate junction staying single lead then?

Yep - It would be a big undertaking to double it as there's a lot of point work in that area. I'd also be unsure where trains on the Up Harrogate would go without cluttering up the ECML. Does the single lead cause reliability issues at present?

Much appreciated. It looks tight between 806a and 809 pts, will that allow a parallel departure from 10/11 while a train is arriving into 9/10 from the Fast?

The line diagram is a bit misleading as it's not a consistent scale longitudinally. It's a bit of a squeeze between the proposed Relief line and the P8/9/10 road towards 806A with Leeman road being a pinch point. The idea is a dual departure from any combination of Platforms 9/10/11 can take place. 803A/B points were flipped round from the original proposal to facilitate this,

 

[zwk500]

The line diagram is a bit misleading as it's not a consistent scale longitudinally. It's a bit of a squeeze between the proposed Relief line and the P8/9/10 road towards 806A with Leeman road being a pinch point. The idea is a dual departure from any combination of Platforms 9/10/11 can take place. 803A/B points were flipped round from the original proposal to facilitate this,

Thanks for this. The dual departure/arrival from 9/10/11 is a long overdue facility!

 

[greyman42]

There are no trains in or out of the north end of York station on the 2nd November. Has this got anything to do with this?
Edit: There appears to be no LNER trains but Cross Country and TPE are still showing as running to plan?

 

[dodecahedron67]

There are no trains in or out of the north end of York station on the 2nd November. Has this got anything to do with this?

There very much are trains in/out of York North on 2nd Nov

 

[greyman42]

There very much are trains in/out of York North on 2nd Nov

Yes i had jumped the gun a bit there but i see that LNER services are not calling at York?

 

[800001]

Yes i had jumped the gun a bit there but i see that LNER services are not calling at York?

LNER are calling at York, however seems a very limited service

 

[CommuterPigeon]

Originally yes, that weekend was being used for the York Third Line scheme. I gather a couple of weeks ago the DfT instructed Network Rail to pause work on the scheme due to budget challenges. It meant Operators had to quickly put their timetable back which most managed, but LNER chose to leave calls at York limited to the trains that were planned to call there in the amended timetable, not sure why (perhaps to do with the reservation system?).

Not clear what the fate of the project will be.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Originally yes, that weekend was being used for the York Third Line scheme. I gather a couple of weeks ago the DfT instructed Network Rail to pause work on the scheme due to budget challenges. It meant Operators had to quickly put their timetable back which most managed, but LNER chose to leave calls at York limited to the trains that were planned to call there in the amended timetable, not sure why (perhaps to do with the reservation system?).

Not clear what the fate of the project will be.

Efficient way of delivering work. Those contractors stood down at last minute will recoup their losses somewhere!

 

[800001]

Originally yes, that weekend was being used for the York Third Line scheme. I gather a couple of weeks ago the DfT instructed Network Rail to pause work on the scheme due to budget challenges. It meant Operators had to quickly put their timetable back which most managed, but LNER chose to leave calls at York limited to the trains that were planned to call there in the amended timetable, not sure why (perhaps to do with the reservation system?).

Not clear what the fate of the project will be.

Sounds like lazy incompetence!

 

[greyman42]

LNER are calling at York, however seems a very limited service

The emergency timetable from LNER seems to be in conflict with the timetable on their own website.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Yeah - Anything in black is existing (and to remain) and all the red is new kit.

Whats the green ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Whats the green ?

The normal convention used is that ‘green goes’.