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Your ideas for future uses of Class 91s and Mk4 coaches

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sleeper fan

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Will they get future use?

I know 4 or 5 are due to go to GNWR at some point but what about the others?

Extra Westcoast services, Run as short forms like the HSTs?
 
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59CosG95

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Fair I know 4 or 5 are due to go to GNWR at some point but what about the others? Extra Westcoast services, Run as short forms like the HSTs?
It's not certain that 91s will be the allocated traction for GNWR's services; I've seen rumours of 90s hauling them, and I've seen rumours of 91s hauling them. What's certain is that Mk4 sets are due to go (in a 2+7 formation IIRC) to GNWR.
 

59CosG95

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Export to Bulgaria to work alongside or replace 86s and 87s maybe?
Chance would be a fine thing! The Bulgarian exports are all 110mph mixed-traffic locos, while the 91s were designed for 140mph passenger work. When it comes to freight, a 91 couldn't pull the skin off custard compared to an 86 - it's just not geared for it.
 

cactustwirly

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Export to Bulgaria to work alongside or replace 86s and 87s maybe?

I doubt it, the 91s aren't suited to freight services.
Bulgarian railways are way more likely to lease some Siemens Vectrons, or something mid life from Germany (such as a 1st gen Traxx, or a BR143, BR155 etc)
 

Class 466

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It's not certain that 91s will be the allocated traction for GNWR's services; I've seen rumours of 90s hauling them, and I've seen rumours of 91s hauling them. What's certain is that Mk4 sets are due to go (in a 2+7 formation IIRC) to GNWR.
Track access is for 91s and the 90s ex GA are off to Freightliner I believe.
 

bastien

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Export to Bulgaria to work alongside or replace 86s and 87s maybe?
How about top-and-tailing a MK4 set with two 91s and running an open access service along the GWML to Bristol Parkway & Cardiff. Plenty of power to keep up with the 800s, and resilience too... You could even stop short of Paddington once Crossrail is running, if platform space there is a problem.
 

Darandio

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How about top-and-tailing a MK4 set with two 91s and running an open access service along the GWML to Bristol Parkway & Cardiff. Plenty of power to keep up with the 800s, and resilience too... You could even stop short of Paddington once Crossrail is running, if platform space there is a problem.

Why? Is the service to Bristol Parkway and Cardiff not sufficient?

I'm pretty sure this has been suggested before and shot down, prepare for it to happen again.
 

_toommm_

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How about top-and-tailing a MK4 set with two 91s and running an open access service along the GWML to Bristol Parkway & Cardiff. Plenty of power to keep up with the 800s, and resilience too... You could even stop short of Paddington once Crossrail is running, if platform space there is a problem.

13,000HP seems excessive! Would the OHLE be able to give that much power with both locos on full whack?
 

swt_passenger

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What’s the latest on the earlier plans from a few years ago to retain a few short 91/Mk4 sets for certain services? (Was just mentioned in passing in the LNER 800/801 thread.)

Seems to have had little recent discussion, with the very latest track access approvals is it now assumed to be definitely not happening?
 

delt1c

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Export to Bulgaria to work alongside or replace 86s and 87s maybe?
91 and Mk4's on Sofiia top Varna, nah give me the skodas and ex DB stock with 1st class compartments anyday
v
 

Rhydgaled

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What’s the latest on the earlier plans from a few years ago to retain a few short 91/Mk4 sets for certain services? (Was just mentioned in passing in the LNER 800/801 thread.)

Seems to have had little recent discussion, with the very latest track access approvals is it now assumed to be definitely not happening?
I'm not sure but my understanding of what I've read on other topics is that some of the additional services Virgin Trains East Coast planned (which would have required more sets than the 800/801 fleet, hence the plan to retain a small number of IC225s) have been delayed to 2021 at the earliest due to Network Rail needing to complete some upgrades first. The choice of rolling stock for those services, assuming they all happen, now seems to be up in the air, the reduced-length IC225s might still happen or more Hitachi units might be ordered.
 

Sandy2

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It's not certain that 91s will be the allocated traction for GNWR's services; I've seen rumours of 90s hauling them, and I've seen rumours of 91s hauling them. What's certain is that Mk4 sets are due to go (in a 2+7 formation IIRC) to GNWR.

Track access is for 91s and the 90s ex GA are off to Freightliner I believe.

Do we think that 90/91s would perform similarly enough for either to run in the same paths?
 

angryskipfan

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They would indeed perform similarly for GNWR if the non tilt max speed is still 110 mph for the proposed Blackpool services. It will be down to lease costs and availability.
 

cjmillsnun

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They would indeed perform similarly for GNWR if the non tilt max speed is still 110 mph for the proposed Blackpool services. It will be down to lease costs and availability.

Would they? The Skodas accelerate quicker than the 91s
 

CosherB

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I'm sure DBC and Freightliner (if/when they get their hands on the GA examples) would be happy to supply 90s to the TOCs to operate with the Mk4s.
 

Rob F

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The 91s would have no issues at all maintaining linespeed on the GWML, and their schedules on the ECML were, I believe, faster than those allowed for HSTs. Over 6000hp is hardly underpowered!
 

cactustwirly

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The 91s would have no issues at all maintaining linespeed on the GWML, and their schedules on the ECML were, I believe, faster than those allowed for HSTs. Over 6000hp is hardly underpowered!

But the December timetable change, re-writes everything using 800 times, which are quite a lot faster than HSTs and 91s
 

bastien

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But the December timetable change, re-writes everything using 800 times, which are quite a lot faster than HSTs and 91s
Top and tail 'em, a 91 at either end ;)

More seriously, buy some class 397s (and have them built at Newport for extra brownie points). That risks embarrassing the dft, GWR & Hitachi though...
 
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jagardner1984

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It makes me wonder, given the relatively high number available, and with them being in the rare position of being PRM compliant, whether there would be work for Mk4s as Replacement trains / Rescue trains.

A few of the recent discussions on here about bustitution, the situation with Caledonian Sleeper in the middle of the week and several coaches running hundreds of miles up the M6, and presumably the phenomenal costs involved in doing so at a moments notice, combined with large scale closures planned on the ECML, MML and presumably WCML once HS2 integration work really kicks in, made me wonder whether they might just be a market for an operator with a few Mk4 sets and 91s/67s/DVTs strategically placed, and drivers being trained on diversionary routes, or route conducted on main routes by the main driver in the case of a rescue, might just be financially viable. Given the atrocious bad press associated with each case of putting hundreds of people on dozens of elderly buses, might a train that can vacuum up 400 of them in quick order actually be viable ....? Particularly given any solution that doesn’t involve old buses is invariably more popular with the public ?

*Caveat - I appreciate this is complex - I just wonder if there has ever been a time when so much hauled stock was coming off lease simultaneously, with no obvious immediate future and presumably relatively low leasing costs.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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If they transferred to Virgin Trains and shortened to say 6 coaches because of their acceleration, they could replace the 5-car Voyagers on any Scotland services currently worked by them - could any stations between Crewe and Holyhead take a 10-car Voyager? 10 coaches to and from Crewe and London I'm sure will be welcome, however!
 

Aictos

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If they transferred to Virgin Trains and shortened to say 6 coaches because of their acceleration, they could replace the 5-car Voyagers on any Scotland services currently worked by them - could any stations between Crewe and Holyhead take a 10-car Voyager? 10 coaches to and from Crewe and London I'm sure will be welcome, however!

Why shorten them? Especially when I'm sure you can get a mix of either 9 or 11 car Class 390s on the London to Edinburgh via Birmingham services so better off keeping them in their East Coast formations which means you get a massive increase in seating over the Voyagers plus no diesels under the wires on those services so restricting the Voyagers to North Wales services meaning a few could be cascaded over to XC.
 

Grannyjoans

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Track access is for 91s and the 90s ex GA are off to Freightliner I believe.

Well that's the end of the 86's then!
I always thought they were going to get replaced by 90s at some point.
 

krus_aragon

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If they transferred to Virgin Trains and shortened to say 6 coaches because of their acceleration, they could replace the 5-car Voyagers on any Scotland services currently worked by them - could any stations between Crewe and Holyhead take a 10-car Voyager? 10 coaches to and from Crewe and London I'm sure will be welcome, however!
North Wales currently sees a 10-car Voyager every weekday lunchtime, ostensibly for ferry traffic. It misses out Flint and Prestatyn, but the fact that it serves Chester, Rhyl, Colwyn, Junction, Bangor and Holyhead indicates that they're long enough.

(You could just run 10-car as far as Chester, with a single unit continuing to Holyhead, if you wanted to keep serving Prestatyn and Flint.)
 

hexagon789

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The 91s would have no issues at all maintaining linespeed on the GWML, and their schedules on the ECML were, I believe, faster than those allowed for HSTs. Over 6000hp is hardly underpowered!

90s have a far higher short-term output though - 7,860hp against 6,300hp.
 

hexagon789

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If they transferred to Virgin Trains and shortened to say 6 coaches because of their acceleration, they could replace the 5-car Voyagers on any Scotland services currently worked by them - could any stations between Crewe and Holyhead take a 10-car Voyager? 10 coaches to and from Crewe and London I'm sure will be welcome, however!

And what about the extended journey times due to the 110mph non-tilt ceiling and inability to use EPS speeds at present?
 
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