Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[N/100]

Interesting that Petts Wood never had a fast service to/from London reinstated.

IIRC it was the same time that the metro service went from 2tph to 4tph.

 

[Starmill]

*To St Pancras. If the final destination is in the south such London Bride Waterloo East, Charing Cross, Cannon Street, Blackfriars or Victoria then the incredibly fast journey becomes slower and more costly as the underground and Thamelink are not free

Yes they are. Transfer by Thameslink services from St Pancras to City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, Elephant and Castle is included with the cost of Plus High Speed tickets.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes I know that it is much quicker via HS1* but not on the mainline which it could be, that is what I was pointing out. The mainline was never intended as the slow route from Ashford at all - it was made into the slower route.

I am glad we both agree on the fare though. The £15.25 ticket I quoted isn't even for the high speed fare which is a lot more!

Yes I agree with you about the fare. It seems somewhat scandalous that the faster services to not only Ashford but to much of Kent were used as an excuse to increase fares, meaning that many people were suddenly faced with a choice between higher fares and a substantially slower/less frequent journey. in my view that was wrong.

However I can't agree with the outrage over making the classic line a slow-line. Once HS1 was in place, the classic line was never going to be able to compete on speed, so it doesn't make sense to try. Far better to focus services on what it could do well at - continuing to link towns that are not served by HS1 (I'm pretty sure you'll see the same thing happening on the WCML once HS2 is built: Services on that line will be slowed down by calling at more places). Further, there was an acute shortage of rolling stock on the SouthEastern routes, and it makes sense to send that rolling stock to the places where it's most in demand. Since common sense tells you that demand for Ashford-London on conventional lines would decrease once HS1 was running, there seems to be a good case for reallocating that stock to places that hadn't just benefitted from having a new high speed line built. As a result, for example, Tunbridge Wells went to 4tph, and some places in London saw better frequencies. It seems astonishing now to remember that before HS1, some stations on the Greenwich line for example only had 4tph - on an extremely heavily used metro route in London!

Because of that, frequencies went down between Ashford and Tonbridge - and while I appreciate that's not good for the people who specifically required that service, it doesn't seem unreasonable to say that there were other places on the SouthEastern network that needed those trains more. From that point of view, the decision to reduce the conventional service to Ashford looks quite sensible. Of course, in 2022 that line will get its 4tph back, which is good news. (I'm not sure how stock allocation makes that possible - I'm guessing perhaps it has something to do with stock being freed up because of Thameslink effectively taking over (roughly) the current CHX-Gillingham service?)

*To St Pancras. If the final destination is in the south such London Bride Waterloo East, Charing Cross, Cannon Street, Blackfriars or Victoria then the incredibly fast journey becomes slower and more costly as the underground and Thamelink are not free

Realistically if you live in Milton Keynes, your commute also takes longer if your destination is in South London. Many towns outside London have trains to only one London terminus.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

On a different but linked topic, had HS1 been constructed to south London instead of its roundabout route up through North Kent, under the Thames and through Essex, I wonder what the journey time would have been. My guess is 20 minutes, what do others think?

The HS1 route looks reasonably direct to me - allowing for that you're never going to get a perfectly straight route unless you tunnel the whole way. You'd probably have saved a couple of miles by routing it to a South London terminus - and you could perhaps put up a good argument for saying that should have been the preferred option on grounds of respecting people's established journey patterns. But at 140mph a couple of miles is hardly going to make much difference in time. I would hazard a guess that the main thing that stops the journeys being faster than they are (and 38 minutes is already pretty good for such a long distance) is the two intermediate stops at Ebbsfleet and Stratford International.

 

[yorksrob]

However I can't agree with the outrage over making the classic line a slow-line. Once HS1 was in place, the classic line was never going to be able to compete on speed, so it doesn't make sense to try. Far better to focus services on what it could do well at - continuing to link towns that are not served by HS1 (I'm pretty sure you'll see the same thing happening on the WCML once HS2 is built: Services on that line will be slowed down by calling at more places).

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.

As a user of train services to Ashford for the past thirty-five years, I never asked for my main line to be slowed down, certainly not in favour of some extortionately priced new route. It has been a source of irritation that even our semi-fast services were sacrificed to 'encourage' people to cough up an extra tenner to arrive in the opposite side of London.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.

As a user of train services to Ashford for the past thirty-five years, I never asked for my main line to be slowed down, certainly not in favour of some extortionately priced new route. It has been a source of irritation that even our semi-fast services were sacrificed to 'encourage' people to cough up an extra tenner to arrive in the opposite side of London.

Is that an objection to the removal of the Ashford-Tonbridge fasts per se, or an objection to the fact that it was done in conjunction with charging higher fares on HS1 (which I've already said I disagree with). Would you still object if the HS1 fares to London had been the same as the classic fares?

And of course, another way of looking at it is... if you wanted to retain the Ashford-Tonbridge fasts just after HS1 was built, which other route on SouthEastern would you have taken the rolling stock from? Which other route do you think should have been given a worse service[*] so that Ashford could get HS1 AND 4tph of classic trains to London?

[*] Or at least, denied service improvements

 

[yorksrob]

Is that an objection to the removal of the Ashford-Tonbridge fasts per se, or an objection to the fact that it was done in conjunction with charging higher fares on HS1 (which I've already said I disagree with). Would you still object if the HS1 fares to London had been the same as the classic fares?

And of course, another way of looking at it is... if you wanted to retain the Ashford-Tonbridge fasts just after HS1 was built, which other route on SouthEastern would you have taken the rolling stock from? Which other route do you think should have been given a worse service[*] so that Ashford could get HS1 AND 4tph of classic trains to London?

[*] Or at least, denied service improvements

Actually, I object to both. Yes, the rather underhand way in which the large premium has been added via HS1 is a nuisance, however, it is primarily the loss of a swift service to Charing Cross in the heart of the West End, not to mention Waterloo and it's excellent connections westward that I object to.

Also, the additional trains now proposed are being done so without any corresponding reduction in the service towards Tunbridge Wells, so the idea that other routes have to suffer has been shown to be tosh.

I for one will rejoice when we get our faster trains to Charing Cross back (and if they could just bring back the buffet trolley as well that would be ideal).

 

[Barn]

It seems astonishing now to remember that before HS1, some stations on the Greenwich line for example only had 4tph - on an extremely heavily used metro route in London!

I think Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith are only specified at 4tph from 2022.

 

[JamesRowden]

Actually, I object to both. Yes, the rather underhand way in which the large premium has been added via HS1 is a nuisance, however, it is primarily the loss of a swift service to Charing Cross in the heart of the West End, not to mention Waterloo and it's excellent connections westward that I object to.

Also, the additional trains now proposed are being done so without any corresponding reduction in the service towards Tunbridge Wells, so the idea that other routes have to suffer has been shown to be tosh.

I for one will rejoice when we get our faster trains to Charing Cross back (and if they could just bring back the buffet trolley as well that would be ideal).

The peak SEML service via Tonbridge is specified to increase from 10tph to 12tph.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Also, the additional trains now proposed are being done so without any corresponding reduction in the service towards Tunbridge Wells, so the idea that other routes have to suffer has been shown to be tosh.

I don't think your logic works there. Remember that Thameslink are taking over trains to Gillingham via Woolwich Arsenal, and I think they are taking over some Maidstone East trains too - so there are going to be a fair few SouthEastern trains available in 2022 for fast trains to Ashford that weren't available in 2009.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith are only specified at 4tph from 2022.

They'll have 6tph. The franchise document only shows 4tph for these stations, but that's because 2tph will be run by Thameslink as all-stoppers from (I think) Luton via London Bridge to Rainham.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Am I the only one who sees 4tph as okay for a suburban line or am I missing something entirely?

Having lived on the Penge East line for a number of years, we had to put up with 2tph until 2007 and now its 4tph, but while I was still there, the carriages were often 8 cars in length, sometimes 10 in the high peaks, but always 8, but occasionally 6 in the quieter parts of the day I recall an option years ago when the MP wanted 6tph but most of us were happy with 4 as it meant longer carriages and the Penge East line is or was always busy for a suburban route that never left the London boundary.

4tph can work if the carriages are there, but its hardly awful, suburban trains should not be ran like a deep level tube line.

Do we even know if the Rainham Thameslink service will last beyond 2022?
Alot seems to be riding on this but alot can happen in five years.

As for HS1 I feel that its about time that it was separated from SE Trains, and fly solo it never made sense that it was attached to SE Trains in the first place.

An old thread a while back suggested running HS1's into Victoria via Bromley, could this work?

 

[BluePenguin]

An old thread a while back suggested running HS1's into Victoria via Bromley, could this work?

Theoretically using Fawkham junction yes it could work! I doubt the services would be very fast but I am all for the trains in the south as are many commuters.

 

[Antman]

Am I the only one who sees 4tph as okay for a suburban line or am I missing something entirely?

Having lived on the Penge East line for a number of years, we had to put up with 2tph until 2007 and now its 4tph, but while I was still there, the carriages were often 8 cars in length, sometimes 10 in the high peaks, but always 8, but occasionally 6 in the quieter parts of the day I recall an option years ago when the MP wanted 6tph but most of us were happy with 4 as it meant longer carriages and the Penge East line is or was always busy for a suburban route that never left the London boundary.

4tph can work if the carriages are there, but its hardly awful, suburban trains should not be ran like a deep level tube line.

Do we even know if the Rainham Thameslink service will last beyond 2022?
Alot seems to be riding on this but alot can happen in five years.

As for HS1 I feel that its about time that it was separated from SE Trains, and fly solo it never made sense that it was attached to SE Trains in the first place.

An old thread a while back suggested running HS1's into Victoria via Bromley, could this work?

I think 4tph on the Victoria to Orpington via Penge East service is as good as it's going to get with fast trains to be accommodated as well. It's still 2tph on Sundays though trains can get rather packed.

I agree HS1 should be separated from Southeastern.

I can't really see any case for running HS1's to Victoria.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think your logic works there. Remember that Thameslink are taking over trains to Gillingham via Woolwich Arsenal, and I think they are taking over some Maidstone East trains too - so there are going to be a fair few SouthEastern trains available in 2022 for fast trains to Ashford that weren't available in 2009.

Are you talking about rolling stock availability or track capacity ?

As far as I'm aware, the lack of faster trains on the Tonbridge route has never been due to a lack of rolling stock, but has been cited as being due to lack of track capacity between Tonbridge and Orpington since the paths were taken up by additional services to Tunbridge Wells. This is now shown to be untrue as an additional two trains will use that route.

In terms of the Maidstone East route, I have a great fondness for it, but it has traditionally been the slower alternative. I don't see how switching some of it's services to Thameslink is going to change this situation much for passengers from Ashford or points East. In fact, the only time the route achieved premier status was when NSE used to run a fast Ashford-Bearstead-Maidstone East-London Bridge service in the 90's. Again, I wouldn't object to one of the additional Ashford trains going this way as it always struck me as providing good connectivity between East Kent and Maidstone, as well as a reasonably fast service to London. However, I would happily accept the enhanced service completely via Tonbridge as an alternative.

 

[drdan888]

They'll have 6tph. The franchise document only shows 4tph for these stations, but that's because 2tph will be run by Thameslink as all-stoppers from (I think) Luton via London Bridge to Rainham.

If you check the Thameslink consultation Woolwich dockyard, Belvedere and Erith will be skipped by the Thameslink trains...

 

[Barn]

They'll have 6tph. The franchise document only shows 4tph for these stations, but that's because 2tph will be run by Thameslink as all-stoppers from (I think) Luton via London Bridge to Rainham.

I'm not sure that's correct, unless the new Thameslink franchise will specify differently in the future. The current plans have those stations as Southeastern only.

Thameslink will, however, keep Deptford, Greenwich, Maze Hill and Westcombe Park at 6tph.

 

[ScotGG]

Yep that's correct about Thameslink planning to skip some stations meaning a reduction from 6tph now to 4tph. Pretty odd considering that even by missing out three stations the Thameslink via Woolwich is timetabled SLOWER that a SE Metro train that currently stops at all station, then you add in all the new homes going up now in Erith let alone the 15k planned and wonder what world they're on. Oh, and about £10 million to be spent shortly better linking Erith station to the town centre. And Bexley Council are planning a shopping centre in Belvedere:

http://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk...just-one-idea-in-bexleys-new-growth-strategy/

EDIT: Just read that Woolwich Dockyard will be close to a lot of housing now coming under the Charlton Riverside Masterplan - about 7,000 homes.

4tph with all that in London? Nope.

 

[Barn]

The timetabling is frustratingly slow. I presume it is because it is absolutely vital that it hits the busy Thameslink Core in sequence?

 

[Barn]

Southeastern's proposed 2018 timetable looks pretty decent:

4tph Cannon Street rounders, all stations
2tph Charing Cross to Dartford, all stations
2tph Thameslink, selected stations

This keeps every station on at least their current 6tph or 8tph frequency, upgrades Plumstead and Slade Green to 8tph, and provides a choice of London destination.

It will be a hard sell in 2022 to downgrade from this.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If you check the Thameslink consultation Woolwich dockyard, Belvedere and Erith will be skipped by the Thameslink trains...

I'm not sure that's correct, unless the new Thameslink franchise will specify differently in the future. The current plans have those stations as Southeastern only.
Thameslink will, however, keep Deptford, Greenwich, Maze Hill and Westcombe Park at 6tph.

Yes, my mistake, sorry. That's going to be a very unpopular move - basically a downgrade in services without (unlike Ashford in 2009) a new line to compensate (In 2022 Crossrail will be ancient history so doesn't count ) Even worse - to add to the reasons ScottGG gave, it's very likely that Crossrail will cause an increase in demand at Belvedere and Erith because of the new journey opportunities opened up by changing to Crossrail at Abbey Wood. Downgrading those stations to 4tph makes no sense as far as I can see.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Well seeing as the Hayes, Sidcup & Bexleyheath trains will be CX/Victoria only lines from 2022 and North Kent & Greenwich will be CS, will this not free up capacity at CS to restore 6tph on the Greenwich line to that terminal?

I for one am still skeptical about the GTR Rainham service for a number of reasons which I wont go into, but as capacity could be freed up at CS would this not make sense to restore 6tph to the Greenwich line, have 4tph as rounders to CX via Bexleyheath line and Sidcup line so as to keep an ad hoc CX connection (or maybe have the Sidcup rounder as a CS-Greenwich-Slade Green-Sidcup-Lewisham-Victoria service? Again for an ad hoc connection to Kings College Hospital) and run if GTR ditch the Rainham service, SE trains could pick it up and run this via Lewisham into Cannon Street.

As for HS1 running to Victoria, it could be done at peaks for Ashford and Maidstone commuters, I think Victoria is a diversion station for HS1 if there is a serious problem as for at least three winters between 2009-2011 during heavy snowfall I did HS1 trains at Victoria.

The Ashford-Maidstone-LB service you talk about wad the Network Express not sure where it started irs journey from though, probably Dover.

I've noticed this weird trend with towns in Kent, Surrey and Sussex where in the London area its limited stops then virtually all stops to a major town in one of those counties, its weird.

 

[Barn]

Well seeing as the Hayes, Sidcup & Bexleyheath trains will be CX/Victoria only lines from 2022 and North Kent & Greenwich will be CS, will this not free up capacity at CS to restore 6tph on the Greenwich line to that terminal?

There are 6tph to Cannon Street - it's just that only 4tph are specified to call at Erith, Belvedere and Woolwich Dockyard.

 

[NorthKent1989]

There are 6tph to Cannon Street - it's just that only 4tph are specified to call at Erith, Belvedere and Woolwich Dockyard.

From 2022? This can't be right? This is why If Thameslink are going to run services into South Eastern territory they should work together on their consultations, unless I'm reading this wrong.

 

[Barn]

One possibility is that the DfT plans to specify calls at those stations in its procurement for the next Thameslink franchise when the TSGN contract ends (although Woolwich Dockyard will not be able to accept full length class 700s).

Another possibility is that South Eastern bidders voluntarily bid 6tph at those stations anyway. The 4tph at Belvedere and Erith is a minimum, not a maximum.

 

[ScotGG]

A lot of what-ifs. Why not make it mandatory now in the plans?

And surely it's not beyond the wit of mankind to sort out SDO with 700s at one station in five years time. Replacing 10/12-car Networkers or 10 car 376s with 8 car 700s is barely any increase in capacity.

Apprently the Dartford lines couldn't go to TfL due to conflicts with Kent (which was rubbish really) and yet this happens.

 

[NorthKent1989]

A lot of what-ifs. Why not make it mandatory now in the plans?

And surely it's not beyond the wit of mankind to sort out SDO with 700s at one station in five years time. Replacing 10/12-car Networkers or 10 car 376s with 8 car 700s is barely any increase in capacity.

Apprently the Dartford lines couldn't go to TfL due to conflicts with Kent (which was rubbish really) and yet this happens.

I thought it was Grayling being an idiot?

Kent I thought was okay with The Dartford terminators and Rounders would go to TfL while Gillingham trains would remain SE trains along with Gravesend via Sidcup services.

 

[Class465fan]

If you check the Thameslink consultation Woolwich dockyard, Belvedere and Erith will be skipped by the Thameslink trains...

That's no good then is it? I am quite disappointed that we're going to lose the semi-fast Gillingham in a few months time. Why not use the Thameslink via Sidcup instead or isn't that possible?

 

[NorthKent1989]

That's no good then is it? I am quite disappointed that we're going to lose the semi-fast Gillingham in a few months time. Why not use the Thameslink via Sidcup instead or isn't that possible?

Apparently its not possible, yet GTR say it's easier for Thameslink to cross the NK Junction to the Greenwich line, even though, it kinda defeats the object in ironing out the junctions and lines east of London Bridge by segregating them thereby allowing Thameslink to have its own tracks, this was the reason why the Greenwich line lost Charing Cross in the first place only for the GTR Rainham trains to effectively fo a similar maneuver.

Its also because GTR aspire to run 24tph in the peaks and Windmill Junction near East Croydon wasn't able to handle the level of Thameslink trains so 4tph had to come from somewhere else, namely Rainham via Greenwich and Maidstone East via Swanley into London Bridge.

I'm also disappointed in the loss of semi fast Gillingham trains, it makes no sense for GTR to essentially run all stops, except Erith, Belvedere & Woolwich Dockyard, yet South Eastern are going to run a fast service via Sidcup from Gravesend, the existing fast service works because there's a lengthy fast run between Gravesend and Abbey Wood calling only at Greenhithe and Dartford, then the inner London stations are called at more closely, the new Sidcup fasts will defeat the purpose as it run fast from New Eltham to London Bridge, plus the fact that the North Kent line has far superior TfL connections that is in demand for Medway.

 

[Bromley boy]

Apparently its not possible, yet GTR say it's easier for Thameslink to cross the NK Junction to the Greenwich line, even though, it kinda defeats the object in ironing out the junctions and lines east of London Bridge by segregating them thereby allowing Thameslink to have its own tracks, this was the reason why the Greenwich line lost Charing Cross in the first place only for the GTR Rainham trains to effectively fo a similar maneuver.

The main reason for removing the Ch+ - Greenwich trains was to prevent the conflicting movement with the segregated thameslink lines. There will be a conflict between down Cannon St trains bound for new cross and up thameslinks coming off the Greenwich line, as you say.

This is one of the ways the benefits of the programme are weighted more towards TL passengers.

The historic conflicting move between thameslinks coming from East Croydon heading to Blackfriars crossing the Ch+ lines has has been removed which is the main benefit for SE.

I'm also disappointed in the loss of semi fast Gillingham trains, it makes no sense for GTR to essentially run all stops, except Erith, Belvedere & Woolwich Dockyard, yet South Eastern are going to run a fast service via Sidcup from Gravesend,

Agreed. Although, at a pinch, this may free up networker stock for more intensive use in the metro area and train lengthening, etc.