Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[KingJ]

I wonder if it is in reaction to the planned GTR services operating from Ashford - via Maidstone East.

Potentially? Although that feels like a more commercial/competitive decision, so i'd have expected the bidder to come up with that as opposed to the DfT. Other than that though, the only reasons I can think would be either recognition of Ashford as increasingly being a regional hub, or a way to try and relieve high peak loadings on HS1 by offering a cheaper but still not tremendously long journey times (£134.40 vs £161.30 weekly season and a ~70 minute journey instead of 40 minutes? (based off an existing 43 minute journey on a Tonbridge to Charing Cross service and an estimate of ~25 minutes between Ashford and Tonbridge if running fast)).

 

[Cletus]

Was at Ashford this morning and a non-stop Ashford to Dover Priory service (due to late running) came through.

Would like to see more of those, lol

 

[John Bray]

While its long been a frustration that fasts don't stop at Orpington in high peak (and enable transfer to the Victoria line), its understandable as they'd be swamped, SouthEastern have been stopping fasts in the shoulder peak at 7.15 and 8.45, where there is capacity.

Sevenoaks needs 4tph of fasts, not sure it needs 6tph though.

With the ITT requirement for limited Hasting services and the need to maintain 4tph fast at Orpington leading to extra Ashford trains, you could of the 8tph on the SEML off-peak have 2tph fast from Tunbridge Wells to London, 2 tph fast from Tonbridge, and 2tph of stoppers on each branch, fast from Orpington. Then Orpington and Sevenoaks would get 4tph, and those further out faster journeys.

 

[ScotGG]

I had reason to use Southeastern on various Metro lines last week. I passed through 14 stations. Only 1 had barriers manned and in operation. Around 8 had barriers wide open. No wonder TfL felt they could make more money off metro routes. It's a free railway for 90% of stations and DOO. I doubt much will change.

 

[BluePenguin]

Well it is not entirelly free because the majority of the people from these stations are either travelling to and from London terminals where there almost certainly will be barriers in operation. You have a point about intermediate stations though

 

[Mikey C]

I had reason to use Southeastern on various Metro lines last week. I passed through 14 stations. Only 1 had barriers manned and in operation. Around 8 had barriers wide open. No wonder TfL felt they could make more money off metro routes. It's a free railway for 90% of stations and DOO. I doubt much will change.

Not a Metro station, but went to Tunbridge Wells last Friday and the station had the barriers open

On the way back, there was a ticket inspection though on the train

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Interesting speculation regarding the reason for the entry to the ITT of the 'fast' Main Line services. One thing that is becoming clearer is that a 57 minute Ashford - London Bridge with stops only at Tonbridge and Sevenoaks is entirely possible and therefore people going from Ashford to the 'City' could definitely trump the 39 minutes on High Speed when you then have to get on the Tube / Thameslink and therefore be no better off for time. Add in the fares saved and it is clear that a few peak 'Express' trains with 12 coaches will definitely shake things up and create the impetus for more folk to go back to 375s from 395s.

Thameslink's peak Ashford services will most certainly not attract anybody who needs to go to the likes of Blackfriars or St Pancras as they A) will take too long and B) will not be able to compete even as a 'direct' journey to getting on a quick train to St Pan or London Bridge and connecting onto TL from there.

 

[Bromley boy]

I had reason to use Southeastern on various Metro lines last week. I passed through 14 stations. Only 1 had barriers manned and in operation. Around 8 had barriers wide open. No wonder TfL felt they could make more money off metro routes. It's a free railway for 90% of stations and DOO. I doubt much will change.

Well it is not entirelly free because the majority of the people from these stations are either travelling to and from London terminals where there almost certainly will be barriers in operation. You have a point about intermediate stations though

Indeed. Many SE metro stations still don’t have barriers.

As @BluePenguin says the theory is probably that most users are heading into central London so will end up paying max oyster fare anyway if they don’t “touch in”.

There are also revenue blocks at key barrierless stations which collar quite a few people.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

There are also revenue blocks at key barrierless stations which collar quite a few people.

Revenue officers also seem to frequent Bromley South, despite the fact there are ticket barriers that are working 99.5% of the time.

They'd have a lot more fun catching people at Grove Park, where they've threatened to install barriers for years but have never done so.

Edit: I'd like to apologise for my poor choice of words - no offence was intended to anyone, least of all not to RPOs.

 

[Bromley boy]

Revenue officers also seem to frequent Bromley South, despite the fact there are ticket barriers that are working 99.5% of the time.

They'd have a lot more fun catching people at Grove Park, where they've threatened to install barriers for years but have never done so.

Yep that’s a strange one.

From observation Hither Green and Ladywell get quite a few blocks (no doubt because both are barrierless and the first zone 3 station on the 2/3 boundary, so people with a 1/2 travel card might chance their arm).

So does Sydenham hill - mostly for the school kids!

 

[BluePenguin]

Interesting speculation regarding the reason for the entry to the ITT of the 'fast' Main Line services. One thing that is becoming clearer is that a 57 minute Ashford - London Bridge with stops only at Tonbridge and Sevenoaks is entirely possible and therefore people going from Ashford to the 'City' could definitely trump the 39 minutes on High Speed when you then have to get on the Tube / Thameslink and therefore be no better off for time.

Thameslink's peak Ashford services will most certainly not attract anybody who needs to go to the likes of Blackfriars or St Pancras as they A) will take too long and B) will not be able to compete even as a 'direct' journey to getting on a quick train to St Pan or London Bridge and connecting onto TL from there.

It will be wonderful! It has been a severely missed service over the last decade. It is will certainly be interesting to see how many people switch back to using the mainline and whether the amount of passengers on peak high speed services plumet or not, freeing up lots of capacity.

However I would say that 57 minutes is unlikely although would be very good. For some strange reason, Paddock Wood and Sevenoaks appears to be a mandatory stop so not entirelly as fast as before but a huge difference compared to now. My guess is that the journey time will be 58 minutes if only stopping at Tonbridge and 1 hour 10 if calling at Paddock Wood, Sevenoaks and London Bridge too.

As for the Thamelink services, I doubt they will be any more popular than the services to Victoria are now. They are not meant to be used for travelling end to end to and from the likes lof Ashford and Canterbury West who use faster services, but for people living further alone the line.

 

[BluePenguin]

I think this was discussed earlier and the conclusion was that it is an improvement. New “fasts” are being introduced (that’ll please @BluePenguin and no reduction to the existing 2tph service for the stations between Ashford - Tonbridge.

I wonder if it is in reaction to the planned GTR services operating from Ashford - via Maidstone East.

Oh yes I will certainly be very pleased! It might be the single biggest positive change the new timetable brings.

I would not be surprised if the re-introduction of these services has anything to do with competition. However why anyone would choose the GTR service is beyond me

 

[HH]

Rumour of big announcement to be made soon. Hold the front page.

 

[BluePenguin]

Rumour of big announcement to be made soon. Hold the front page.

I wonder what this means...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It will be wonderful! It has been a severely missed service over the last decade. It is will certainly be interesting to see how many people switch back to using the mainline and whether the amount of passengers on peak high speed services plumet or not, freeing up lots of capacity.

However I would say that 57 minutes is unlikely although would be very good. For some strange reason, Paddock Wood and Sevenoaks appears to be a mandatory stop so not entirelly as fast as before but a huge difference compared to now. My guess is that the journey time will be 58 minutes if only stopping at Tonbridge and 1 hour 10 if calling at Paddock Wood, Sevenoaks and London Bridge too.

As for the Thamelink services, I doubt they will be any more popular than the services to Victoria are now. They are not meant to be used for travelling end to end to and from the likes lof Ashford and Canterbury West who use faster services, but for people living further alone the line.

Ashford station to Chart Leacon is 90mph, Chart Leacon to Postern is 100mph, Postern to Tonbridge is 90mph. The bulk of that is Chart Leacon to Postern at 25 miles so a simple calculation with a 'small margin for error' would suggest it possible to complete that section in 17 minutes so Ashford to Tonbridge could be done in less than 21 minutes. Add in a Paddock Wood call and it's probably only 25-26 minutes even with a 1 minute dwell time.

I calculate something along the lines of:
Ashford dep 07:00
Paddock Wood arr 07:18
Paddock Wood dep 07:19
Tonbridge arr 07:25
Tonbridge dep 07:26
Sevenoaks arr 07:34
Sevenoaks dep 07:35
Orpington pass 07:43
London Bridge arr 07:58

However if we get into 'Clean Path Land' and use the ITT to its full advantage and go Ashford > Paddock Wood > Sevenoaks > London Bridge stops, it looks more like:
Ashford dep 07:00
Paddock Wood arr 07:18
Paddock Wood dep 07:19
Tonbridge pass 07:22 1/2
Sevenoaks arr 07:29
Sevenoaks dep 07:30
Orpington pass 07:38
London Bridge arr 07:53

Although there's probably an opportunity to 'tighten up' those timings yet further...

 

[Bromley boy]

Ashford to Tonbridge could be done in less than 21 minutes.

Definitely achievable from a rolling start in a 375, or even quicker, not sure about from a standing start.

(As a trainee under instruction) I’ve done it in much less than that the other way, we were ECS from Ch+ - Ramsgate via Ashford depot. IIRC, 40mph around the curve on the approach to Tonbridge (via the “fast” avoiding line through the station), then nailed it to the 100mph line speed for the long straight across Kent...

It’s only 20 miles or so as the crow flies - a little over 10 minutes later we were being checked down on approach to Ashford in order to enter the depot and reverse into the wash road.

Good times indeed .

 

[Antman]

Not a Metro station, but went to Tunbridge Wells last Friday and the station had the barriers open

On the way back, there was a ticket inspection though on the train

Certainly not uncommon at Tunbridge Wells where there are two sets of barriers to staff.

 

[jon0844]

The gestapo also seem to frequent Bromley South, despite the fact there are ticket barriers that are working 99.5% of the time.

They'd have a lot more fun catching people at Grove Park, where they've threatened to install barriers for years but have never done so.

Even with gatelines, there are often people with the wrong ticket (no railcard, child etc) and doubling up, so if there's a known issue then it isn't uncommon to do additional checks at barriered stations.

 

[island]

And moreover, most of the suburban gatelines that do operate don’t have a ticket seller so the attendant’s only real option is to let ticketless passengers out to go to the booking office, at which point they promptly abscond.

 

[ScotGG]

Rumour of big announcement to be made soon. Hold the front page.

Hortons coming back leading the new franchise winner.

 

[urpert]

Rumour of big announcement to be made soon. Hold the front page.

Let's hope it's "Govia out".

 

[Class465fan]

They really shouldn't have the right to run for this new SE franchise or other franchises.

 

[hwl]

Rumour of big announcement to be made soon. Hold the front page.

Wasn't it meant to be August? Or is Grayling going to bin the Govia and Stagecoach bids???

 

[urpert]

Wasn't it meant to be August? Or is Grayling going to bin the Govia bid???

Last I heard was November for a 1 April 2019 start. But an early announcement would be very welcome!

 

[bionic]

The platform oyster readers at Brixton and Nunhead are very popular with passengers from further down the line who position themselves by the doors and nip out quick to touch in and then jump back on the same train. When they have a revenue block at Brixton in the mornings it's pure comedy gold.

 

[Class465fan]

Last I heard was November for a 1 April 2019 start. But an early announcement would be very welcome!

Wasn't the new franchise originally suppose to commence sometime this June??

 

[KashmireHawker]

Is this the major announcement, of 40,000 additional passengers by 2022 with a mass new load of rolling stock??

Or is it me getting a bit too carried away, knowing the link below is from a Rail Delivery Group tweet which was uploaded many moons ago??

https://www.britainrunsonrail.co.uk/my-area/selondonkent.html

Improvements being made in south east London & Kent

• More modern, high capacity, metro services on suburban routes as part of the new South Eastern franchise, including space for at least 40,000 additional passengers by 2022
• Providing additional services between London, Tonbridge and Ashford, as part of the new South Eastern franchise
• Creating smoother, more reliable services by renewing 650km of track and replacing 754 sets of points on the busiest routes
• Deploying Customer Ambassadors at the busiest stations

[...]

 

[Antman]

The platform oyster readers at Brixton and Nunhead are very popular with passengers from further down the line who position themselves by the doors and nip out quick to touch in and then jump back on the same train. When they have a revenue block at Brixton in the mornings it's pure comedy gold.

How often are there revenue blocks at Brixton?

There is no facility for cash paying passengers to purchase a ticket there when the the ticket office is closed as it often is.

 

[ScotGG]

It says a lot that a busy inner London station like Brixton isn't staffed all day and has no barriers. tfL would start the process on day one, and along with better signage and advertising, reap the rewards.

DfT let franchises are hopeless for this sort of thing in the main.

For Brixton also see Charlton, Deptford, Hither Green, Blackheath, Plumstead, Mottingham, Greenwich, Nunhead and many, many more.

Actually, the more I think the more it does seem 90% of London stations are not staffed enough or lack barriers.

 

[urpert]

Wasn't the new franchise originally suppose to commence sometime this June??

It's been put back numerous times, first to December, then to early 2019. Latest Modern Railways confirms a 1 April 2019 start date.