Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[yorksrob]

Not a great performance at all. Whilst I sat at Ashford inside a 375 watching the orange men work on the track, a Eurostar sped past on the flyover. I couldn't help but wonder why they didn't just run the HS services over it by joining HS1 just beyond the tunnel near Folkestone instead

They could have done. But as I was joining at Ashford, it would have been of little use to me.

 

[BluePenguin]

This was actually covering for a lack of HS services rather than the MDE Line.

Yes and I took one of these services. It was nice not to stop at Sandling, Westernhanger and Pluckley. We stopped everywhere else though including Orpington where hoards of non smiling people crammed into each other.

I had planned to get on one of the services that ran fast between Ashford and Tonbridge but would have had 50 minutes either side waiting for my connecting train so ended up not getting one.

 

[BluePenguin]

Prior to HS in 2009, Southeastern ran an hourly fast from Ashford to Charing Cross calling only at Tonbridge and Waterloo East. Journey time was 58 mins up and 56 mins down from memory. Was a great service.

It most certainly was. I wonder whether they will bring back this service in the December 2018 timetable. Realistically today I am sure stops at Sevenoaks and London Bridge would be mandatory stops even though every single mainline service already stop there!

 

[BluePenguin]

South Eastern were running a non-stop train from Asford to Tonbridge yesterday on account of engineering works near Borough Green. I timed it and it took 22 minutes even with a slow approach to Tonbridge.

22 minutes!!!? That is the fastest run I have ever heard of. It just shows how much potential to be fast the mainline really has and how much of an underunsed waste it is today.

 

[yorksrob]

22 minutes!!!? That is the fastest run I have ever heard of. It just shows how much potential to be fast the mainline really has and how much of an underunsed waste it is today.

I timed it on my mobile phone and its confirmed on real time trains as leaving Ashford at 10:51 and arriving in Tonbridge at 11:13.

I agree - its a very underused asset and the sooner its made proper use of the better.

 

[island]

It most certainly was. I wonder whether they will bring back this service in the December 2018 timetable. Realistically today I am sure stops at Sevenoaks and London Bridge would be mandatory stops even though every single mainline service already stop there!

The only reason London Bridge was bypassed by peak up trains historically was to use the avoiding line between platforms 6 and 8 pre-rebuild. There’s no advantage any more in skipping London Bridge.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure why they wouldn't skip Sevenoaks on such a service. It's not a particularly major hub.

 

[BluePenguin]

The only reason London Bridge was bypassed by peak up trains historically was to use the avoiding line between platforms 6 and 8 pre-rebuild. There’s no advantage any more in skipping London Bridge.

Yes there is - to make the service faster!

Plus it was not just peak time trains it used to be ALL trains. On my trips to London when I was younger I never remember us stopping at London Beidge at all.

In fairness, London Bridge is a much more useful stop to have rather than Sevenoaks as it has connections to Sussex, Gatwick Airport and Thameslink services.

 

[BluePenguin]

I'm not sure why they wouldn't skip Sevenoaks on such a service. It's not a particularly major hub.

Me neither although nearly every single mainline service seems to stop there. The only services I know of which don't are the few from Hastings which are non stop from Tonbridge.

I guess Southeastern like to stop at Sevenoaks as hoards of commuters get on there. I agree it is not a major hub and is a very unimportant station. If it was up to me I would remove the stop and force them onto metro trains which trundle through Petts Wood, Chislehurst and Elmstead Woods

 

[yorksrob]

Me neither although nearly every single mainline service seems to stop there. The only services I know of which don't are the few from Hastings which are non stop from Tonbridge.

I guess Southeastern like to stop at Sevenoaks as hoards of commuters get on there. I agree it is not a major hub and is a very unimportant station. If it was up to me I would remove the stop and force them onto metro trains which trundle through Petts Wood, Chislehurst and Elmstead Woods

I'd be more generous and still stop the Ashford stoppers there !

 

[BluePenguin]

I'd be more generous and still stop the Ashford stoppers there !

Yes so would I actually. I would bring back the Ashford stoppers and have them stop at Hildenborough, Sevenoakds and Orpington as they used to which the Hastings trains so today.

 

[KingJ]

Me neither although nearly every single mainline service seems to stop there. The only services I know of which don't are the few from Hastings which are non stop from Tonbridge.

I guess Southeastern like to stop at Sevenoaks as hoards of commuters get on there. I agree it is not a major hub and is a very unimportant station. If it was up to me I would remove the stop and force them onto metro trains which trundle through Petts Wood, Chislehurst and Elmstead Woods

Most of the peak Hastings fasts are non-stop from High Brooms, skipping both Tonbridge and Sevenoaks. There's a handful that are fast from Tonbridge (the 08:26 departure from Tonbridge for example). From the service requirement in the ITT though, this increases to;

• Standard SX and SO: 2 TPH fast from Tonbridge to London Bridge.
• SX Peak: 3 TPH fast from Tonbridge to London Bridge.
• SuO / SX non-standard hours: 2 TPH fast from tonbridge to London Bridge.

Additionally, bidders have the option of running some of the Ashford services as fast or selectively stopping. The ITT mandates only a minimum of 2 out of 4 TPH during Standard SX and SO, 4 out of 6 during SX Peak and 2 out of 2 during SuO / SX non-standard hours (although bidders can run additional services, but at a minimum there must be 2 TPH between Tonbridge and Ashford, and 2 TPH at all intermediate stations).

Definitely worth having a read of the ITT timetable if you've not already. Page 3 covers Southeastern Mainline services between London and Hastings/Ashford via Tonbridge.

Sevenoaks has a large commuting population. No point having them take up a significant amount of capacity on a metro train before it actually gets to the metro - those trains are heavily loaded already even just starting from Orpington.

 

[BluePenguin]

I have had a read of that document and it looks like bidders have a lot of freedom when it comes to choice of stopping patterns. Hopefully they will bring back some order to the timetable which has been missing for the last 10 years.

Yes, Sevenoaks has a large commuter population although this is only because the station has such a frequent train service which attracts even more people to the area. In the days before so many services stopped there, Sevenoaks was no more important than Hildenborough. If service was reduced then they would disperse elsewhere to Orpington or Tonbridge. Mainline services are mainline services for a reason. I don't see why passengers travelling from further afield who spend over an hour on the train, should have endure increased journey times due to stopping at stations so close to their destination terminus for no other reason than so commuters can wake up whenever they want and still get to work early. They also take up 80% of the sets in the evening peak. Half the train empties out at Sevenoaks and the train is nearly empty by Paddock Wood. If the fast service is there, it will always be more popular that the stopper.

In the opppsite direction, commuters shove their way onto already packed trains making them unbearable. This happened at the weekend when trains stopped at Orping during engineering works.

To put into this into context how annoying this is for people who don't live in Kent: How would you feel if on the way down/up from Glasglow the train stopped no hundreds boasted at Tring or Harrow? Of if coming from York, having to stop at Peterborough and Finsbury Park? Those 2 hour journey times would quickly become much closer to 3 hours.

Turning the stoppers round at Orpington and running a seperate peak express shuttle service to Sevenoaks and Tonbridge would free up seats for passengers wanting to travel to stations towards East Kent. What do people think of this? I hope a timetable planner sees this

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes, Sevenoaks has a large commuter population although this is only because the station has such a frequent train service which attracts even more people to the area. In the days before so many services stopped there, Sevenoaks was no more important than Hildenborough. If service was reduced then they would disperse elsewhere to Orpington or Tonbridge. Mainline services are mainline services for a reason. I don't see why passengers travelling from further afield who spend over an hour on the train, should have endure increased journey times due to stopping at stations so close to their destination terminus for no other reason than so commuters can wake up whenever they want and still get to work early.

Sevenoakes is certainly one of the most important stations on the SEML. I’m not sure why you seem to think it isn’t!? From a quick look at useage stats more passengers use it than Ashford International or Tunbridge Wells and it isn’t far behind Tonbridge. Given the demographics of the surrounding area (which is a large catchment area) these commuters will in many cases be well off and influential season ticket holders.

There are also good operational reasons for stopping fasts here rather than Orpington - sevenoakes is situated on a two track section which is at capacity in the peaks, and starting more metros from here would result in congestion on the mainline (and would hold up the fasts, in fact).

On the other hand, as has been said above, there are plenty of metro services starting from Orpington and the slow lines are segregated from the fasts, it does make sense for mainliners to skip it. This is why many peak direction mainliners will skip Orpington but call at sevenoakes.

It’s a commuter railway at the end of the day and it will always (rightly) be operated to favour the London commuter belt!

 

[KingJ]

I have had a read of that document and it looks like bidders have a lot of freedom when it comes to choice of stopping patterns. Hopefully they will bring back some order to the timetable which has been missing for the last 10 years.

Yes Sevenoaks has large commuter population although this is only because the station has such a frequent train service. In the days before so many services stopped there, Sevenoaks was no more important than Hildenborough. If service was reduced then they would disperse elsewhere to Orpington or Tonbridge. Mainline services are mainline services for a reason. I don't see why passengers travelling from further afield who spend over an hour on the train, should have endure increased journey times due to stopping at stations so close to their destination terminus for no other reason than so commuters can wake up whenever they want and still get to work early.

To put into this into context how annoying this is for people who don't live in Kent: How would you feel if on the way down/upfrom Glasglow the train stopped at Tring or Harrow? Of if coming from York, having to stop at Peterborough and Finsbury Park? Those 2 hour journey times would quickly become much closer to 3 hours.

Indeed, mainline services are mainline for a reason - and Sevenoaks is part of that mainline. If you look at the main lines in to London, many fast services stop at major stations just outside of London - e.g. Woking, Maidenhead, Slough, Shenfield etc. That's not to say every service stops there - and indeed that is reflected in the current service and even moreso in the ITT timetable. Getting everyone who walks to Sevenoaks, or drives a short distance, to drive instead to Orpington or Tonbridge for a fast service isn't exactly feasible - road and car parking capacity at both locations aren't exactly plentiful.

I use the line daily. Would I like it if all trains skipped Sevenoaks? Yeah, it'd be nice. But is a time saving of 2/3 minutes worth it for me compared to folks from Sevenoaks spending another 25/30 minutes travelling and putting severe strain on Metro capacity? I don't think so. Let them keep fast services, and let some fast services from further afield skip.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I can't quite believe someone has just compared a Kent mainline service stopping at Sevenoaks to a West Coast Euston to Glasgow calling at Tring. It isn't some rural backwater with no catchment area and no demand beyond the two towns either side of it. Certainly a good move for Kent to get those non-stop Tonbridge-London Bridges in as standard but it is illogical to remove Sevenoaks from the 'Kent Mainline' concept altogether and treat it as though it is no different to Elmstead Woods or something.

 

[Busaholic]

22 minutes!!!? That is the fastest run I have ever heard of. It just shows how much potential to be fast the mainline really has and how much of an underunsed waste it is today.

For a period around 1980 I used to wait on Paddock Wood station for a train, almost always alone at the time I was travelling, and look down that dead straight line to Ashford and fantasise about how it must have been built by the Romans, and how great it would be to have 150 mph electric expresses all the way from London to Paris and beyond (the Channel Tunnel being no more than an idea at the time). Certainly when fast trains went through you could see the potential if it wasn't for pesky commuters like me, from places like Paddock Wood and Hildenborough.

 

[BluePenguin]

Sevenoakes is certainly one of the most important stations on the SEML. I’m not sure why you seem to think it isn’t!? From a quick look at useage stats more passengers use it than Ashford International or Tunbridge Wells and it isn’t far behind Tonbridge. Given the demographics of the surrounding area (which is a large catchment area) these commuters will in many cases be well off and influential.

On the other hand, as has been said above, there are plenty of metro services starting from Orpington and the slow lines are segregated from the fasts, it does make sense for mainliners to skip it. This is why many peak direction mainliners will skip Orpington but call at sevenoakes.

It’s a commuter railway at the end of the day and it will always (rightly) be operated to favour the London commuter belt!

The Southeastern mainline should be used as such though. Yes the figures speak for themselves in terms of passenger numbers. It is only important as many people use it for the express services. However my point still stands that had Sevenoaks not been added as a stop on the majority of mainline services then the figures today would look very different. The same goes for all stations between Ashford and Tonbridge which have had number soar since services were improved.

I agree a commuter railway should serve the commuter belt, but with semi fast regional and stopping metro services rather than long distance mainline services which are designed serve coastal locations. Services on the Dartford lines this is managed very well. Otherwise why not stop trains from Brighton and Southampton at the likes of Balham, Selhurst and Battersea Park, which already have good service?

 

[BluePenguin]

Half the train empties out at Sevenoaks and the train is nearly empty by Paddock Wood. If the fast service is there, it will always be more popular that the stopper.

In the opppsite direction, commuters shove their way onto already packed trains making them unbearable. This happened at the weekend when trains stopped at Orpington during engineering works.

Has anyone else experience this?

 

[theageofthetra]

Sevenoakes is certainly one of the most important stations on the SEML. I’m not sure why you seem to think it isn’t!? From a quick look at useage stats more passengers use it than Ashford International or Tunbridge Wells and it isn’t far behind Tonbridge. Given the demographics of the surrounding area (which is a large catchment area) these commuters will in many cases be well off and influential season ticket holders.

There are also good operational reasons for stopping fasts here rather than Orpington - sevenoakes is situated on a two track section which is at capacity in the peaks, and starting more metros from here would result in congestion on the mainline (and would hold up the fasts, in fact).

On the other hand, as has been said above, there are plenty of metro services starting from Orpington and the slow lines are segregated from the fasts, it does make sense for mainliners to skip it. This is why many peak direction mainliners will skip Orpington but call at sevenoakes.

It’s a commuter railway at the end of the day and it will always (rightly) be operated to favour the London commuter belt!

That's because until recently you could find places to park for free near the station.

 

[Bromley boy]

The Southeastern mainline should be used as such though. Yes the figures speak for themselves in terms of passenger numbers. However my point still stands that had Sevenoaks not been added as a stop on the majority of mainline services then the figures today would look very different. The same goes for all stations between Ashford and Tonbridge which have had number soar since services were improved.

Sevenoakes depends on the SE fasts. You do realise the GTR and SE metro trains that originate there depart almost empty? There’s also a good reason why the SE metro services are only half hourly. Laying on more all-shacks services from sevenoakes would simply delay the fasts anyway - as I explained above.

Are 4.2 million commuters (ok 4.2 million journeys not individual people) in sevenoakes to be told they are losing their 30 minute commute to London and have to move house or drive to Orpington or Tonbridge simply because people want to lay on “fast services” to save (far fewer) coastal commuters 2/3 minutes?

Sorry but it’s a bonkers suggestion.

I agree a commuter railway should serve the commuter belt, but with semi fast regional and stopping metro services rather than long distance mainline services which are designed serve coastal locations. Services on the Dartford lines this is managed very well. Otherwise why not stop trains from Brighton and Southampton at the likes of Balham, Selhurst and Battersea Park, which already have good service?

Yes but a commuter railway isn’t an intercity railway. It’s bizarre to compare SE mainliners (which are really all outer suburban semi fasts) with the WCML.

It’s also very odd to compare places line Balham and Battersea Park to Sevenoakes. These are central London locations with multiple transport options. Last time I checked Sevenoakes wasn’t on the tube!

I think the point you perhaps don’t appreciate is that sevenoakes doesn’t really have a “good” service apart from the SE mainliners. Aside from these it makes do with the half hourly SE metro which takes almost an hour to get to Charing + and a half hourly GTR service which takes even longer to reach useful destinations.

 

[Bromley boy]

That's because until recently you could find places to park for free near the station.

Do you mean Orpington or Sevenoaks?

The sevenoakes carpark is quite extensive (and usually contains some rather nice motors!).

Many commuters will drive to the station from the surrounding villages. For example Westerham, a substantial settlement with no rail links of its own, is a source of many Sevenoakes commuters.

 

[BluePenguin]

Are 4.2 million commuters (ok 4.2 million journeys not individual people) in sevenoakes to be told they are losing their 30 minute commute to London and have to move house or drive to Orpington or Tonbridge simply because people want to lay on “fast services” to save (far fewer) coastal commuters 2/3 minutes?

Sorry but it’s a bonkers suggestion.

Yes, I don't see why not considering they live close enough to London and have good frequencies and journey times already. It is a shame you disagree but if you live in Bromley then I would not expect you to know or understand how agonising it feels to sit through a journey of over 2 hours every day covering less than 100 miles whilst you enjoy non stop services to Victoria

Yes but a commuter railway isn’t an intercity railway. It’s bizarre to compare SE mainliners (which are really all outer suburban semi fasts) with the WCML.

I agree, but that does not mean all commuter railways must be slow. Neither does it make it fair that only those who live near the terminus enjoy journey times relative to the length of the route. Call the services what you will but it was a mainline until not long ago for a reason.

I think the point you perhaps don’t appreciate is that sevenoakes doesn’t really have a “good” service apart from the SE mainliners. Aside from these it makes do with the half hourly SE metro which takes almost an hour to get to Charing + and a half hourly GTR service which takes even longer to reach useful destinations.

Well what is wrong with that?

It has amazing service! With so many services, routes and journey opportunities to all over London they are split for choice. People who live near London should not expect speedy services really. If people from Dover, Ashford or Margate must put up with 2 hour journey times to Charing Cross or Victoria then I am sure the good people of Sevenoaks can survive 1 hour 20 minutes to Blackfriars or St Pancras. Enjoying 30 minute non stop journeys is a real luxaey. Surely the 50 minute all stop metro services to Charing Criss do not kill anyone. If the mainline services are the only "good" services available then I dread to think how anyone coped when the mainline was Tonbridge - Waterloo East and the only option was an all stops metro or service fast only from Orpington.

I honestly believe my suggestion of an express shuttle would be a fair compromise which would keep the metros from getting full too soon and prevent overcrowding on mainline services.

It’s also very odd to compare places line Balham and Battersea Park to Sevenoakes. These are central London locations with multiple transport options. Last time I checked Sevenoakes wasn’t on the tube!

Come on, neither Balham or Battersea Park are central London are they? As for the tube, it could have been. Had less suburban rail and more of the underground been built south of the Thames, I would assume that one of the lines would have run as far as Sevenoaks - I mean they built the metropolitan line all the way out to Watford in Hertfordshire and Amersham in Buckinghamshire so it is not a crazy idea.

 

[yorksrob]

From my point of view, Sevenoaks always has a reasonable number of people getting on and off, and I've no objection to semi-fasts stopping there as (as they always did in the days when we had such a thing as a semi fast), however I do think an express from the Kent coast should go fast from Tonbridge to London.

 

[yorksrob]

Most of the peak Hastings fasts are non-stop from High Brooms, skipping both Tonbridge and Sevenoaks. There's a handful that are fast from Tonbridge (the 08:26 departure from Tonbridge for example). From the service requirement in the ITT though, this increases to;

• Standard SX and SO: 2 TPH fast from Tonbridge to London Bridge.
• SX Peak: 3 TPH fast from Tonbridge to London Bridge.
• SuO / SX non-standard hours: 2 TPH fast from tonbridge to London Bridge.

Additionally, bidders have the option of running some of the Ashford services as fast or selectively stopping. The ITT mandates only a minimum of 2 out of 4 TPH during Standard SX and SO, 4 out of 6 during SX Peak and 2 out of 2 during SuO / SX non-standard hours (although bidders can run additional services, but at a minimum there must be 2 TPH between Tonbridge and Ashford, and 2 TPH at all intermediate stations).

Definitely worth having a read of the ITT timetable if you've not already. Page 3 covers Southeastern Mainline services between London and Hastings/Ashford via Tonbridge.

Sevenoaks has a large commuting population. No point having them take up a significant amount of capacity on a metro train before it actually gets to the metro - those trains are heavily loaded already even just starting from Orpington.

I must admit I'd thought that the new franchise specified more than two trains an hour between Ashford and Tonbridge. If it doesn't, it seems we're back to square one.

 

[island]

Yes there is - to make the service faster!

There are no paths to do that – platforms 8 and 9 at London Bridge feed into a single line over Borough Market and the service works because trains can alternate through, one from each side. If a train has just left platform 8, a train coming fast through platform 9 would still need to wait at the platform starting signal for the line to clear ahead of it, by which time it might as well call there.

I’m taking a neutral position on Sevenoaks but it’s got several similarities with Reading, not least that both have a high volume of Conservative voters who will have strong opinions on any diminution to their service.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes, I don't see why not considering they live close enough to London and have good frequencies and journey times already. It is a shame you disagree but if you live in Bromley then I would not expect you to know or understand how agonising it feels to sit through a journey of over 2 hours every day covering less than 100 miles whilst you enjoy non stop services to Victoria

Well now that you mention it Bromley South is somewhat similar to Sevenoaks in that it’s a major station in the outer London commuter belt which serves a large number of passenger, but with most peak time passengers using fast services - it’s in the top 20 stations in the U.K. by passenger numbers, in fact.

I don’t live there any more .

I agree, but that does not mean all commuter railways must be slow. Neither does it make it fair that only those who live near the terminus enjoy journey times relative to the length of the route. Call the services what you will but it was a mainline until not long ago for a reason.

No, but it isn’t about fairness, it’s about most efficient use of capacity to serve the greatest number of passengers.

I think the reason the classic lines expresses were removed was capcity + the introduction of HS1, which means commuters from Ashford can get to StP in around 45 minutes via HS1, and even Dover and Priory are only 1:30 or so from London, via HS1 aren’t they? I would say 1:30 to do 70 miles of so from Ramsgate compares pretty favourably to 30 mins to do 21 miles from Sevenoaks! 1/3the time to cover less than 1/3 the distance.

In terms of £ per mile I bet you’ll find inner and outer suburban travellers pay more £ per mile than this coming up from the coast.

It has amazing service! With so many services, routes and journey opportunities to all over London they are split for choice. People who live near London should not expect speedy services really. If people from Dover, Ashford or Margate must put up with 2 hour journey times to Charing Cross or Victoria then I am sure the good people of Sevenoaks can survive 1 hour 20 minutes to Blackfriars or St Pancras. Enjoying 30 minute non stop journeys is a real luxaey. Surely the 50 minute all stop metro services to Charing Criss do not kill anyone. If the mainline services are the only "good" services available then I dread to think how anyone coped when the mainline was Tonbridge - Waterloo East and the only option was an all stops metro or service fast only from Orpington.

No, once again I think you misunderstand the services at sevenoaks. Sevenoaks is a convenient starting point for the SE metro service and the GTR services. Neither these really “serve” sevenoakes at all, both arrive and depart almost empty, and are intended to respectively serve the intermediate stations between Sevenoaks - Orpington / the stations via the Bat and Ball line/Swanley etc.

Sorry but it really is preposterous to suggest that Sevenoaks provision should be reduced, and that a significant number of commuters who enjoy an excellent 30minute commute into central London should be offered 2 metro services an hour taking an hour+ , just so that the network fits into your definition of “main line” v “metro”.

In fact, from your bold comment, I think you might misunderstand the concept commuting altogether. The general idea is that the closer one lives to central London the shorter the journey becomes. The trade off for this is (generally) higher house prices, and a shorter but less comfortable journey. How much do houses cost in Sevenoaks versus Thanet?!

Pays your money, takes your choice.

I honestly believe my suggestion of an express shuttle would be a fair compromise which would keep the metros from getting full too soon and prevent overcrowding on mainline services.

This wouldn’t work from a stock/pathing perspective. The issue isn’t metro services from sevenoakes being too full, as I’ve explained above, it’s use of limited capacity on the SEML.*

This is why it is right and sensible that more peak trains will stop at sevenoaks and skip Orpington than will call at neither or both. As far as I’m aware this has always been the case. It’s also sensible that a few services skip both Sevenoaks and Orpington, such as the Amber Rudd expresses from Hastings, and some services from Ashford and beyond.

That position is remaining the same from 2022 onwards.

Come on, neither Balham or Battersea Park are central London are they? As for the tube, it could have been. Had less suburban rail and more of the underground been built south of the Thames, I would assume that one of the lines would have run as far as Sevenoaks - I mean they built the metropolitan line all the way out to Watford in Hertfordshire and Amersham in Buckinghamshire so it is not a crazy idea.

Balham is zone 3 on the Northern line, Battersea Park is zone 1 so definitely “central”! Neither has anything in common with Sevenoaks which is a large commuter town in a semi rural location outside the M25.

No indeed, but the fact remains the tube wasn’t built that far out, so stations in the south east are far more reliant on a good rail service.

*when the line beyond Sevenoaks is blocked for weekend engineering there is usually a half hourly “express” shuttle service (Sevenoaks - Orpington - LB, WE, Ch+) and a half hourly all shacks service.

 

[LLivery]

I've used the Southeastern service from Orpington to Hastings a few times. I would find it bizarre if most fasts didn't stop in Sevenoaks (and Orpington).

The Southeastern mainline should be used as such though. Yes the figures speak for themselves in terms of passenger numbers. It is only important as many people use it for the express services. However my point still stands that had Sevenoaks not been added as a stop on the majority of mainline services then the figures today would look very different. The same goes for all stations between Ashford and Tonbridge which have had number soar since services were improved.

I agree a commuter railway should serve the commuter belt, but with semi fast regional and stopping metro services rather than long distance mainline services which are designed serve coastal locations. Services on the Dartford lines this is managed very well. Otherwise why not stop trains from Brighton and Southampton at the likes of Balham, Selhurst and Battersea Park, which already have good service?

Yes, passenger numbers at Sevenoaks would be less, I can't see why on earth that would be a good thing.

It has amazing service! With so many services, routes and journey opportunities to all over London they are split for choice. People who live near London should not expect speedy services really. If people from Dover, Ashford or Margate must put up with 2 hour journey times to Charing Cross or Victoria then I am sure the good people of Sevenoaks can survive 1 hour 20 minutes to Blackfriars or St Pancras. Enjoying 30 minute non stop journeys is a real luxaey. Surely the 50 minute all stop metro services to Charing Criss do not kill anyone. If the mainline services are the only "good" services available then I dread to think how anyone coped when the mainline was Tonbridge - Waterloo East and the only option was an all stops metro or service fast only from Orpington.

Come on, neither Balham or Battersea Park are central London are they? As for the tube, it could have been. Had less suburban rail and more of the underground been built south of the Thames, I would assume that one of the lines would have run as far as Sevenoaks - I mean they built the metropolitan line all the way out to Watford in Hertfordshire and Amersham in Buckinghamshire so it is not a crazy idea.

People from Sevenoaks also travel south. 1 hour 20 into Central London for a major commuter town on the edge of London and on a main line is ridiculous and cause even more crowding in inner London.

One problem with that underground argument. Amersham, Chalfont, Chorleywood and Rickmansworth all have fast Chiltern services and in the peaks, fast Met line services. Watford, of course, has Watford Junction whose usage is roughly 6-7x Watford tube. Suburban services from Balham, Selhurst and Battersea between 4 and 30 mins into London Victoria from these stations. Sevenoaks to Charing Cross suburbans takes almost an hour! The comparison makes no sense. If you're going to compare it to somewhere at least have it be just outside London: Shenfield, Woking, Welwyn - all of which have fast services.

Finally, there's one major thing you're missing here. Dover, Ashford and Margate have a choice of HS1 or slow. Just like Sevenoaks have a choice of suburban or fast. Like the suburban services, I'd argue the mainline services aren't designed for London to the end destination, but for the towns and villages on the way.

 

[KingJ]

I must admit I'd thought that the new franchise specified more than two trains an hour between Ashford and Tonbridge. If it doesn't, it seems we're back to square one.

Unless i'm reading it wrongly, during normal SX and SO hours (i.e. Mon-Sat Non-Peak) bidders must run 4TPH between Ashford and Tonbridge, of which 2TPH must stop at the intermediate stations. So bidders could theoretically run 2 TPH all stops, 2 TPH fast (or for example, 2 TPH all stops, 1 TPH semi-fast stopping Paddock Wood, 1 TPH fast non-stop).

It's only on Sundays and Monday - Saturday early morning/evenings that bidders are only required to run 2 TPH between Ashford and Tonbridge, and those 2 TPH must stop all stations. However, bidders can run additional services on top of this if they would like (e.g. they could run the mandatory 2 TPH all stops, and another 1 TPH fast)

 

[Bromley boy]

Unless i'm reading it wrongly, during normal SX and SO hours (i.e. Mon-Sat Non-Peak) bidders must run 4TPH between Ashford and Tonbridge, of which 2TPH must stop at the intermediate stations. So bidders could theoretically run 2 TPH all stops, 2 TPH fast (or for example, 2 TPH all stops, 1 TPH semi-fast stopping Paddock Wood, 1 TPH fast non-stop).

It's only on Sundays and Monday - Saturday early morning/evenings that bidders are only required to run 2 TPH between Ashford and Tonbridge, and those 2 TPH must stop all stations. However, bidders can run additional services on top of this if they would like (e.g. they could run the mandatory 2 TPH all stops, and another 1 TPH fast)

I think this was discussed earlier and the conclusion was that it is an improvement. New “fasts” are being introduced (that’ll please @BluePenguin and no reduction to the existing 2tph service for the stations between Ashford - Tonbridge.

I wonder if it is in reaction to the planned GTR services operating from Ashford - via Maidstone East.