Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[londonteacher]

By reliable I meant regularly on time and whilst it may be true that the 2tph have not occurred yet (except in late evenings) at least we know it's coming in a few weeks time. TL wouldn't (I hope) announce services that they can't run after last time

What Southeastern need to is look carefully at the demand and meet this. Is 8tph overkill? Most likely. Is 6tph enough? Quite possibly not, but this will change when Crossrail opens. Also the importance of an interchange with the DLR would also not be necessary. if people are travelling to Canary Wharf because of Crossrail at Abbey Wood and Woolwich and the city using existing Cannon Street and Blackfriars services.

A bay platform or another platform on the SE side of Abbey Wood could be added in the new Taxi rank (where the previous temporary building was) and this could be used to allow services to either overtake or terminate.

 

[NorthKent1989]

By reliable I meant regularly on time and whilst it may be true that the 2tph have not occurred yet (except in late evenings) at least we know it's coming in a few weeks time. TL wouldn't (I hope) announce services that they can't run after last time

What Southeastern need to is look carefully at the demand and meet this. Is 8tph overkill? Most likely. Is 6tph enough? Quite possibly not, but this will change when Crossrail opens. Also the importance of an interchange with the DLR would also not be necessary. if people are travelling to Canary Wharf because of Crossrail at Abbey Wood and Woolwich and the city using existing Cannon Street and Blackfriars services.

A bay platform or another platform on the SE side of Abbey Wood could be added in the new Taxi rank (where the previous temporary building was) and this could be used to allow services to either overtake or terminate.

The 2tph was supposed to have started in September we were told it got pushed to December however this is GTR so that’ll probably be pushed to May of next year, I don’t trust Thameslink to deliver on their promises.

Back to South Eastern, 6tph is the average for most Suburban London stations, a train every ten mins (or so) is pretty decent, the Penge East line only gets 4tph so busy stations like Penge East & Beckenham Junction (I’m not including Beckenham Jnc’s 2tph Southern service since it’s rather circuitous) are under served, it’s worse on a Sunday when it’s 2tph with often only four coaches too! It’s draconian.

 

[urpert]

The 2tph was supposed to have started in September we were told it got pushed to December however this is GTR so that’ll probably be pushed to May of next year, I don’t trust Thameslink to deliver on their promises.

Back to South Eastern, 6tph is the average for most Suburban London stations, a train every ten mins (or so) is pretty decent, the Penge East line only gets 4tph so busy stations like Penge East & Beckenham Junction (I’m not including Beckenham Jnc’s 2tph Southern service since it’s rather circuitous) are under served, it’s worse on a Sunday when it’s 2tph with often only four coaches too! It’s draconian.

I would love to have 6tph via Penge East but just don’t see how they would fit, even with much more regular use of the Kent House loops (which would lengthen journey times).

 

[ScotGG]

I don't know the Penge Line to well. Does it have many 1000+ home developments?

 

[urpert]

I don't know the Penge Line to well. Does it have many 1000+ home developments?

There’s a huge new development about to be completed next to Bromley South but otherwise it is mainly long-established suburbia. The Chatham line is about the only reasonably fast transport link in a large part of this area.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't know the Penge Line to well. Does it have many 1000+ home developments?

There has been some development in the Beckenham area in recent years, but it is mostly old suburbia.

One idea I had was that the Ashford/Maidstone fasts makes an additional call at Beckenham Jnc at 2tph and you can have an additional 2tph for the metro service starting back at Kent House, this line must be one of the few lines left in London that is a metro route with only 4tph

 

[cle]

There has been some development in the Beckenham area in recent years, but it is mostly old suburbia.

One idea I had was that the Ashford/Maidstone fasts makes an additional call at Beckenham Jnc at 2tph and you can have an additional 2tph for the metro service starting back at Kent House, this line must be one of the few lines left in London that is a metro route with only 4tph

My view on this is that everything should become more semi-fast. Unpopular probably - but longer distance Kent services should switch to Charing Cross.

And everything out of Victoria should stop at least once between Bromley South and Victoria... it's 2 track so needs smoothing out to increase frequency. More people would benefit I think, for all of Bromley's 2-3 added minutes. And services from Victoria only run as far as Medway, Orpington/Sevenoaks and Maidstone, and become more metro/semi-fast in nature.

Or... there is a 15 min cycle of: fast to Bromley South, one stop following (eg Beckenham) and then Bromley, two stops (eg Herne Hill and Penge East) and then Bromley, and slow towards Bromley. The slow could terminate elsewhere, but I suspect Kent House is better for pathing/overtaking than terminating.

 

[urpert]

These are good suggestions. 10 years ago the slowest Maidstone trains (1tph) used to stop at Beckenham Jn, which was particularly enjoyable when they were still VEPs.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There has been some development in the Beckenham area in recent years, but it is mostly old suburbia.

One idea I had was that the Ashford/Maidstone fasts makes an additional call at Beckenham Jnc at 2tph and you can have an additional 2tph for the metro service starting back at Kent House, this line must be one of the few lines left in London that is a metro route with only 4tph

In reality it depends what sort of service is expected to be provided in future on the Loop / Main Line. All well and good adding stops but if it’s going to cause issues for journey times ‘out to country’ it will be kicked into touch...

 

[NorthKent1989]

My view on this is that everything should become more semi-fast. Unpopular probably - but longer distance Kent services should switch to Charing Cross.

And everything out of Victoria should stop at least once between Bromley South and Victoria... it's 2 track so needs smoothing out to increase frequency. More people would benefit I think, for all of Bromley's 2-3 added minutes. And services from Victoria only run as far as Medway, Orpington/Sevenoaks and Maidstone, and become more metro/semi-fast in nature.

Or... there is a 15 min cycle of: fast to Bromley South, one stop following (eg Beckenham) and then Bromley, two stops (eg Herne Hill and Penge East) and then Bromley, and slow towards Bromley. The slow could terminate elsewhere, but I suspect Kent House is better for pathing/overtaking than terminating

Good ideas

I think the Ashford/Maidstone trains could be slowed down, they can make additional calls at HH, PE & BJnc, so the Ramsgate/Dover trains, could make the additional stop at BJnc.

They sort of do this already in the peaks where some Ramsgate or Dover trains do stop at Penge East which does help

Of course my ideal fantasy would be that
The London, Chatham & Dover lines splits off from SE but that will never happen

 

[NorthKent1989]

These are good suggestions. 10 years ago the slowest Maidstone trains (1tph) used to stop at Beckenham Jn, which was particularly enjoyable when they were still VEPs.

And that was back when the Penge Metro was only 2tph off peak!!

That service was helpful if you had to wait 30 mins for a Penge Metro and the Beckenham fast was due at Victoria, I’d often get the Beckenham fast change at Beckenham for the stopper which would arrive 7 mins later back to Sydenham Hill

 

[ctrh136]

Could they not just extend the Penge East line services to 10 car with a few platform extensions?
The fast services to Vic from Bromley have 3/4 mins pathing allowance these days to allow for Thameslink services go maybe an extra stop at BKJ or HNH could work

 

[ctrh136]

Deleted

 

[yorksrob]

There has been some development in the Beckenham area in recent years, but it is mostly old suburbia.

One idea I had was that the Ashford/Maidstone fasts makes an additional call at Beckenham Jnc at 2tph and you can have an additional 2tph for the metro service starting back at Kent House, this line must be one of the few lines left in London that is a metro route with only 4tph

Twenty years ago, some Ashford stoppers used to call at Pecham Rye and Denmark Hill. I shouldn't think a stop at Beckenham would be too much of an issue to passengers.

 

[ComUtoR]

Could they not just extend the Penge East line services to 10 car with a few platform extensions

Where do you stick it when it gets to Vic?

 

[urpert]

Where do you stick it when it gets to Vic?

Double deck platform 2

 

[cle]

Twenty years ago, some Ashford stoppers used to call at Pecham Rye and Denmark Hill. I shouldn't think a stop at Beckenham would be too much of an issue to passengers.

And the Dover trains do again (Denmark Hill anyway) - plus some Ashford/Maidstones in the AM peak too.

It's needed, as Denmark Hill (and Peckham Rye) usage has rocketed in the past few years - both are well above 7 million a year. Within a year or so, I am sure they will overtake Bromley South's 8.5m - making them the busiest Southeastern network stations other than the London termini and Lewisham.

In addition to becoming 'cool' areas with increased commuting, there is more nightlife/cultural traffic, the hospitals, and interchanges with the Overground and between various South London lines. Plus East Dulwich had terrible service for years during the London Bridge rebuild.

To compare, that usage is more than double Herne Hill or Beckenham Junction - and DH/PR combined is more than every station between Brixton and Shortlands inclusive. Of course, it includes Overground and Lewisham services, but Herne Hill includes Thameslink etc etc - point being, more calls are needed.

 

[yorksrob]

And the Dover trains do again (Denmark Hill anyway) - plus some Ashford/Maidstones in the AM peak too.

It's needed, as Denmark Hill (and Peckham Rye) usage has rocketed in the past few years - both are well above 7 million a year. Within a year or so, I am sure they will overtake Bromley South's 8.5m - making them the busiest Southeastern network stations other than the London termini and Lewisham.

In addition to becoming 'cool' areas with increased commuting, there is more nightlife/cultural traffic, the hospitals, and interchanges with the Overground and between various South London lines. Plus East Dulwich had terrible service for years during the London Bridge rebuild.

To compare, that usage is more than double Herne Hill or Beckenham Junction - and DH/PR combined is more than every station between Brixton and Shortlands inclusive. Of course, it includes Overground and Lewisham services, but Herne Hill includes Thameslink etc etc - point being, more calls are needed.

That's interesting. There never seemed to be many people climb on to my VEP there in the 90's.

 

[NorthKent1989]

That's interesting. There never seemed to be many people climb on to my VEP there in the 90's.

A classic sign that some areas have changed over the last twenty years
Denmark Hill/Camberwell and Peckham have become very trendy areas in recent years.

Personally my ideal service would be similar to what the CX to Gillingham service was, major inner London stations called at close together, then fast runs beyond zone 3/4.

A Vic-HH-PE-BJnc-BS-Swanley then fast to Medway onwards could work

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The key points are as follows:

- a 4tph service from Blackfriars via the Catford Loop is needed; especially at peak time.
- You need a connection from places like Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye to Victoria but soon there will be 4tph from Lewisham to Victoria enabling same-platform interchange at Peckham. There is also heavy traffic from Denmark Hill to Victoria.
- You need a solid 4tph from Bromley South to Victoria, all stops from Shortlands to Brixton. At peak times, you have the additional services from Beckenham to Blackfriars which calls into question whether the Chatham Main Line could in fact be used as a ‘mostly decelerated’ Route.
- Ramsgate & Dover trains will soon have to stop everywhere including Farningham Road and Sole Street. Realistically to suggest they also need calls at places like Beckenham or Herne Hill is somewhat unacceptable.
- Assessing the impact of a possible ‘takeover’ of the Wimbledon to Sutton route by some form of strange tram / guided busway (the former I agree with especially if they have the sense to route it from South Merton to Morden South via Morden LUL on Road; and also add a stop at Reigate Avenue and, after Sutton town centre, go down to the Royal Marsden and assume the formation of the route to Epsom Downs), you must suggest a future Wimbledon - Tooting - Thameslink service would be of such low demand it wouldn’t warrant a through service to St Albans.

Therefore my opinion is the following:
- Open the Wimbledon - Sutton - Epsom Downs route as a Tram.
- With Crossrail 2 likely to further chip away at demand, offer up a quarter-hourly service Victoria - Brixton - Herne Hill - Tulse Hill - Streatham - Tooting - Haydons Road - Wimbledon operated by the South Central franchisee.
- Turn over the Victoria - Orpington all stopper via Beckenham to Thameslink. The cross-platform interchange at Herne Hill would mean overall convenience would not be affected.
- Operate the Thameslink > Gillingham / Rainham service via Elephant & Herne; stopping at Elephant, Herne, Beckenham Jn, Bromley South and stops to Medway.
- Operate the additional 4tph Orpington via Catford 700s calling at all stops.
- Operate the Thameslink > Ashford service via Denmark Hill with a call at Denmark Hill and then Bromley South.
- Operate the 2tph to Ramsgate & Dover via the Main Line; flighted to have a good path fast to Bromley South.
- Operate an additional 2tph as Victoria - Sevenoaks to cover off Eynsford with stops at Brixton, Herne Hill, Penge East, Beckenham Junction, Shortlands and Bromley South then stops to Sevenoaks.
- If capacity for 8tph doesn’t exist to Orpington, cut one Thameslink > Herne > Orpington short at Beckenham with the Victoria to Sevenoaks behind it for quick connections to Shortlands and Bromley.
- Have the ability to run an additional 2tph via the Main or Loop at peak time to Ashford from Victoria if needed.
- Offer a half-hourly service from Cannon Street to Broadstairs via Chatham as now at peak times.
- Have the ability to extend 1tph Thameslink > Gillingham / Rainham (via Longfield) down to Canterbury East to give through journeys and also to serve Newington and Teynham; accelerating services from Victoria to Thanet and Dover.

 

[yorksrob]

A classic sign that some areas have changed over the last twenty years
Denmark Hill/Camberwell and Peckham have become very trendy areas in recent years.

What would the Trotters think !

(actually, Del would be pleased)

 

[NorthKent1989]

What would the Trotters think !

(actually, Del would be pleased)

Del Boy would indeed be a millionaire! Selling his Filofax to ironic hipster types, Peckham springs would be sold along side Perrier at hipster coffee shops.

 

[yorksrob]

Del Boy would indeed be a millionaire! Selling his Filofax to ironic hipster types, Peckham springs would be sold along side Perrier at hipster coffee shops.

No conference worth the name should be seen without several bottles of Peckham Spring on every table

 

[ScotGG]

The big freight terminal planned at Slade Green is to be decided in spring 2019. I can't see how they can find paths being so close to Abbey Wood and increased passenger trains to link in with Crossrail.

How has that impacted upon this new SE franchise plan?

 

[ctrh136]

Where do you stick it when it gets to Vic?

Would something similar to what they did at Waterloo platforms 1-4 recently be feasible? How many of the low-numbered platforms would need doing? I think 1,2 and 7 are 12-car, 3-6 being 8 car only?

 

[ComUtoR]

Not a clue what happened with Waterloo as I'm based Kent Side.

Vic would need some extensive work to make each platform 12 Cars. Not just in terms of pure length, the layout of and direction of each platform is part of the problem. It would also need a complete re-signalling too.

The greater you increase train length the more you lose flexibility. Not forgetting that 12 Car (networkers) are also limited to using platforms 1-3 at Charing Cross so stock not only needs to compatible at Vic it also needs to be compatible across the network.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Would something similar to what they did at Waterloo platforms 1-4 recently be feasible? How many of the low-numbered platforms would need doing? I think 1,2 and 7 are 12-car, 3-6 being 8 car only?

Pretty certain platform one is 8 car only

 

[NorthKent1989]

No conference worth the name should be seen without several bottles of Peckham Spring on every table

I think I need to rewatch only fools and horses for the 500th time

But in all seriousness Peckham Rye needs a facelift since it’s a major inner London station and a massive interchange

 

[brad465]

If the proposals to slow down Victoria services lead to more commuters wanting to travel fast into London Bridge/Cannon Street/St Pancras than already do so, would capacity improvements have to be made, in the event they choose to do so? Currently the core Medway towns get the dream of Victoria, STP and LBG/CST all being 30-45 mins away in the peaks, so commuters can be flexible on work places. If Victoria services had to be slowed down (as I agree could be necessary), with more stops anywhere in between Rochester and Victoria being added, more commuters may opt for the other termini which could retain their relatively speedy journey times. There is probably no space for more services, so somehow rolling stock would have to be available I think to make more, if not all, of the non-12 car services of that length, where almost all (or even all) HS services are 6, which is already not enough, while some CST trains are 8 car I believe.

 

[yorksrob]

I think I need to rewatch only fools and horses for the 500th time

But in all seriousness Peckham Rye needs a facelift since it’s a major inner London station and a massive interchange

Whenever I go past, there seems to be plenty of evidence of Exmouth Junction's concrete works !