Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[DynamicSpirit]

Ashford International to Charing Cross is only 53 minutes via HS1/Victoria/Bakerloo. You're not going to match that via Tonbridge. Might as well provide South East London (areas with metro services to Orpington) with a better service to East Kent instead. An Orpington call only adds two minutes to an Ashford-Tonbridge-London service.

From my travels on the tube, I find that a highly optimistic timing. I don't know who came up with it, however I rarely find negotiating the tube that Quick.
I understand that Orpington is an important population centre, but I don't understand why it needs four trains an hour to Ashford ?

Haven't done that exact route, but Ashford-STP is usually 38 minutes. According to TfL, you're looking at 4 minutes Kings Cross-Oxford Circus (Victoria line) then 3 minutes Oxford Circus-Charing Cross. If memory serves me correctly, it's a cross platform interchange at Oxford Circus: Next to no walking. So maybe 3 minutes max to wait for a tube at Oxford Circus (on average, less). 1 minute to get out from the tube to ground level at Charing Cross (you'll end up at Trafalgar Square rather than Charing Cross station itself if you take the quickest exit). That all adds up to 49 minutes plus however long it takes to get between HS1 and the tube at Kings Cross. It's a bit of a walk so even for a a fittish person you're probably looking at 5-6 minutes. That adds up to 54-55 minutes. So I agree with Yorksrob that 53 minutes does seem to be pushing it a bit, but only by a couple of minutes. Ashford-Charing Cross will still be quicker via HS1, although obviously less convenient. And obviously, that's for someone who doesn't need to walk somewhere once they reach Charing Cross.

I think the thing with Orpington is that that's where a large number of metro services run to, so calling mainline trains at Orpington opens up a fair bit of SouthEast London - most obviously, including Bromley (although to be fair, the via Maidstone trains will take you from Ashford directly to Bromley South anyway). That'll be why so many trains stop there. Orpington station itself is a bit in the sticks, quite a fair distance from Orpington town centre, so perhaps not really so good as an end destination in its own right.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I was thinking about connections at Orpington, but you made me realise that Bromley South and Swanley serve a significant amount of that demand with services via Maidstone East and Chatham. So therefore there isn't as much of a benefit to stopping more East Kent services at Orpington as I initially thought.

It explains why the Hastings services presently stop at Orpington and the East Kent services don't.

That’s purely operational convenience than any particular commuter or leisure flow.

 

[John Bray]

Orpington has about 5.1m entry/exits and 1.1m interchanges. While its 10min from its High Street, its has solid housing for a mile around, though very limited commercial stuff. It has its own bus terminal and is on 17 bus routes. With Victoria, Thameslink and Hither Green slows its a good point to switch to metro services. 2tph towards Ashford and 2tph towards Tunbridge Wells seems sensible. It seems odd that the desire to get the Hastings services faster means running fast from Tonbridge and missing the interchange opportunities, but I can see why only in preference you get the slows to stop.

Orpington seems a more useful stop than Sevenoaks, as the Otford line can't be a great draw, so you could switch the former to 6tph, and the latter to 4tph. and leave times intact.

When you start interleaving fasts and slows the worry is always that the spacings become 10/20. Running 7.5 minute departures from London Bridge, stopping every other one at Orpington would keep the spacing smooth to Sevenoaks, but how could you interleave the Ashford/TW services to give a good pattern from Tonbridge.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Apparently it is going to be branded South Eastern Railway (rather than Southeastern).

 

[yorksrob]

Apparently it is going to be branded South Eastern Railway (rather than Southeastern).

James Staats Forbes of the London, Chatham and Dover Railway will be spinning in his grave then.

 

[Barn]

Apparently it is going to be branded South Eastern Railway (rather than Southeastern).

Interesting. Is that a clue to the winner, or is that the name that any bidder will be told to use?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Interesting. Is that a clue to the winner, or is that the name that any bidder will be told to use?

That’s the name of any bidder to my knowledge.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Interesting. Is that a clue to the winner, or is that the name that any bidder will be told to use?

DfT now specify a name and a brand (or close to) and the private company just puts little logos (First, Govia etc) on the doors. Easily transferable etc.

 

[adrock1976]

James Staats Forbes of the London, Chatham and Dover Railway will be spinning in his grave then.

Although I am not to familiar with railway history south of the mighty Thames, were the London, Chatham, & Dover Railway and the South Eastern Railway one of these strange situations that they did not totally amalgamate with each other but due to financial reasons were happy to tolerate each others' presence?

 

[ScotGG]

If no announcement this week then Feb looking likely?

 

[yorksrob]

Although I am not to familiar with railway history south of the mighty Thames, were the London, Chatham, & Dover Railway and the South Eastern Railway one of these strange situations that they did not totally amalgamate with each other but due to financial reasons were happy to tolerate each others' presence?

As I understand it, they were deadly rivals who competed to the point of bankruptcy (due to folly's such as the Chatham Central branch) and who ended up having to be jointly run by the South Eastern & Chatham Railway's Managing Committee from 1899.

It's a shame they can't call the new TOC the "South Eastern & Chatham Railway" as a nod towards its historical origins (although as a native of Ashford, I should probably be pleased that the South Eastern seems to have won in the end !).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The South Eastern was, in effect, the one that went from Charing Cross / Cannon Street / London Bridge down to the likes of Tonbridge, Ashford and Tunbridge Wells (and via Redhill). The LCDR was the one that went from Victoria and Blackfriars via the likes of Bromley South and Swanley to Medway and such.

 

[Barn]

Confirmed by the Rail Minister in a Westminster Hall debate that the award announcement will be in the "New Year" now.

 

[Andy25]

Anyone have confirmation of potential rolling stock suppliers?

Alstom are partnered with Stagecoach, and I though others were using Hitachi. But rumour now suggests it's Siemens?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Confirmed by the Rail Minister in a Westminster Hall debate that the award announcement will be in the "New Year" now.

Which new year? Because at this rate we’re looking at New Years 2024 ;-D

Though I can’t gelp but wonder if the delays are occurring are due the fact that major changes are taking place that we as of yet don’t know about?

 

[Japan0913]

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[Andy25]

"Hitachi Rail" is expelled from Britain?

It is tough...

Just not chosen for SouthEastern as far as I can see.

Still in a JV with Bombardier for HS2 and I'm sure looking at other fleets.

 

[Japan0913]

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[Jorge Da Silva]

OK!
Class395 is transferred to the other franchises?

As far as I am aware they are staying. I know that if a Eastbourne (or Hastings) Service starts it will require new trains but I am not aware of any replacement of the 395’s

 

[Mikey C]

Anyone have confirmation of potential rolling stock suppliers?

Alstom are partnered with Stagecoach, and I though others were using Hitachi. But rumour now suggests it's Siemens?

Is that definitely the case, seeing that the other 2 bidders were Govia (who seem quite close to Hitachi with the 395s and retractioned 465s) and a consortium which includes Japanese investors?

 

[Javelin700]

OK!
Class395 is transferred to the other franchises?

The class 395's have to stay as they are covered by a section 54 agreement the doesn't expire until 2026.

 

[Andy25]

Is that definitely the case, seeing that the other 2 bidders were Govia (who seem quite close to Hitachi with the 395s and retractioned 465s) and a consortium which includes Japanese investors?

It was a view of colleagues who have some involvement so would tend to trust their knowledge but seemed odd as goes against what I'd heard before and the Japanese links mentioned above.

 

[markyl]

Rail Minister Andrew Jones ...

Questions have been asked about the timing of the award of the franchise. It will be made not this week, but in the new year. I will keep all colleagues who are served by the franchise posted on the timing. The reason for the delay is that the evaluation of the agreement for the next franchise has taken longer than anticipated because we wanted to ensure that passengers get the best deal possible.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...ribution-89B388D9-B801-4B9E-AD6C-DAD3B5BD5821

 

[Mikey C]

The class 395's have to stay as they are covered by a section 54 agreement the doesn't expire until 2026.

Yes, the only issue with the 395s is that there aren't enough of them!

 

[Japan0913]

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[uxm]

Is the new HS1 service to Hastings a brand new line or an existing line which will be upgraded?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the new HS1 service to Hastings a brand new line or an existing line which will be upgraded?

If it happens, (I’m not at all convinced myself), it will by HS1 from London to Ashford, then over the Ashford Hastings line.

 

[Meerkat]

If HS1 to Hastings happens it will be a frankly outrageous use of public funds!

 

[ScotGG]

It'll never happen. Barely anything will with this franchise coming now and under Grayling.

Even the very busy metro routes amonsgt huge housebuilding will barely see any improvements.

 

[Javelin700]

Update: The current southeastern franchise has been extended to 22nd June 2019 due to the continued delayed announcement of the new southeastern franchise operator.