Your thoughts about ERTMS

[ryan125hst]

I've just been having a look at ERTMS (European Rail Traffic Management System) and have noticed that they are planning to install it on the southern part of the East Coast Main Line, between London Kings Cross and Doncaster, by the end of the decade. This will see the removal of colour light signals from the line, with movements controlled over GSM-R and Eurobalises.

Like my opinions with the abolition of semaphore signalling and old signal boxes across the country, a massive on-going project at the minute, I sit on the fence with how I feel about it. On one hand, i'll be sad to see the old colour light signals go as I've grown up with them. Only last weekend, I was stood on platform 1 at Retford looking at Union of South Africa, and kept glancing around to check the signal, knowing that if it was on red for the platform line, and showing a proceed aspect for the up fast, 60009 wasn't going anywhere! It will be strange when they are removed.

On the other hand, I am into technology: smartphones, 3DTV's, high spec computers etc., and am aware that a new signalling system will increase capacity on the very busy ECML, and could allow for 140mph trains on the route. The current colour lights must date from the 70's (around Retford at least) when the area was resignalled and control went to Doncaster Power Signal Box, so they will need replacing anyway I would have though.

So, I was wondering how everyone else feels about the implementation of ERTMS. For some of you, your local lines will be signalled by it within the next five or ten years. For others, you might have to wait another 50! Are you looking forward to it? Will you be sad to see the old colour lights go? Are you "on the fence" like me".

Ryan

 

[The Planner]

Seeing how the introduction of it was dealt with on the Cambrian, I am still to be convinced by it, especially it terms of the promised increase in capacity. It is still effectively a "block" section separated by block markers, so a train still cant enter the following section if a train is occupying it as we are a long way from moving blocks. Unless the block markers are spaced closer than the current signalling sections (which they may well be) I don't see where it is coming from.

 

[43074]

I'm all for ERTMS - it's time to move on and we have been behind other European countries in this field for a while now - in-cab has been the norm in certain parts of Europe for a few years now.

... and am aware that a new signalling system will increase capacity on the very busy ECML, and could allow for 140mph trains on the route. The current colour lights must date from the 70's (around Retford at least) when the area was resignalled and control went to Doncaster Power Signal Box, so they will need replacing anyway I would have though.

My bold - a contradiction in terms. When the MML was in the planning stages for 125mph running (implemented today), the Freight companies were a tad unsatisfied with the proposal because it meant that actually there was less capacity for them to provide services for their customers at the same speed - only EMT 222s run at the higher speed and thus freight trains limited to 60/75mph are being ''squeezed off'' or shunted into sidings for longer periods of time than was the case previously so EMT can run their faster services.

So, there will have to be a compromise between capacity and 140mph: if the trains run at 140mph then the freight will have to go elsewhere (in terms of the ECML in your area that means the Doncaster to Peterborough via Lincoln line), but to increase capacity trains will have to run at the same speed as present. It isn't so much of a problem on a predominantly 4-tracked railway, but the 2 track sections could be problematic if 140mph ever happens - there were plans for it in the 1990s but look where we are now :roll:

 

[dysonsphere]

I thought the main problem was crossing routes going in and out of an ETRMS zone have they fixed that problem them

 

[PeterY]

I'll miss the signals. They tell their own story of what is happening on the railway at any particular location.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Question is will they let steam trains on? That is all that really matters?

 

[IKBrunel]

Kettles will need an ERTMS loco in the formation.

 

[Llanigraham]

Kettles will need an ERTMS unit in the formation.

Corrected that for you.
I have been told that if and when a portable unit is developed it would be possible to run a kettle under ERTMS.
I was doubtful about it at first, but having spent some time at Machy I can see it's future.

 

[DarloRich]

Llanigraham is correct - they will need (and shall receive) the required kit to enable them to run under ertms.

 

[The Planner]

Interesting to see how they will deal with the kettles, seeing as each one has unique characteristics. Unless they go down the route of assuming it is a single class like a 66 etc....expensive otherwise.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sorry i was being slightly cheeky but thank you for answering my question.

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting to see how they will deal with the kettles, seeing as each one has unique characteristics. Unless they go down the route of assuming it is a single class like a 66 etc....expensive otherwise.

i think miniaturisation, portability and commonality of display equipment will be the key - the wibble in journals about wardrobe sized units is frankly laughable!

 

[The Planner]

It is how they deal with the performance aspects is what Im thinking about, each class is treated differently as part of their braking curves. 97s are dealt with differently to 158s irespective of the linespeed issues.

 

[DarloRich]

It is how they deal with the performance aspects is what Im thinking about, each class is treated differently as part of their braking curves. 97s are dealt with differently to 158s irespective of the linespeed issues.

I know - they will need to be treated as individual classes/units. The capturing of the data will be the hard part, the operation should (!) just be a software matter

 

[Harbon 1]

personally i am going to miss signals if ERTMS takes off

i take a lot of my railway interest from signalling so if theres nothing to be interested in I'll probably end up moving on to something else

 

[The Planner]

No if about it, it is coming.

 

[Eagle]

i take a lot of my railway interest from signalling so if theres nothing to be interested in I'll probably end up moving on to something else

There will still be signals, it's just that you won't be able to see them (unless you lean in the driver's cab while the train is stopped).

 

[455driver]

I thought Cornwall was going to have ERTMS installed next but it has been put off indefinitely because it doesnt work very well?

 

[marcouk2]

I'll miss the signals. They tell their own story of what is happening on the railway at any particular location.

You never know Network Rail might open data the ERTMS info, so you can have RTS (Real Time Signals) on your phone when you're on the platform

 

[DJL]

You never know Network Rail might open data the ERTMS info, so you can have RTS (Real Time Signals) on your phone when you're on the platform

I hope so!
The ability to look a few signals ahead ans see what goin on will be great!

 

[The Planner]

How would that work? all you would see is if the train had a movement authority, I doubt very much they would transmit the speed profile ERTMS had set!

 

[dysonsphere]

And what happens if the train unit fails does the whole system stop because it has lost a train. I would guess the unit in question would have to stop straight away and await rescue. If that is the case there will be a lot more failure points than now.

 

[rebmcr]

And what happens if the train unit fails does the whole system stop because it has lost a train.

Yes. There was a bit of concern about LTE (aka 4G) transmissions causing this to happen, as they're in the neighbouring spectrum to GSM-R.

 

[notadriver]

There will still be signals, it's just that you won't be able to see them (unless you lean in the driver's cab while the train is stopped).

Maybe they should have a tv screen in each coach for passengers showing ERTMS information such as actual speed, permitted speed, movement authority and brake / power controller position. There would be also be a cctv image of the driver for passengers piece of mind with a button to give the driver an electric shock if passengers think he's falling asleep!

 

[Tomnick]

And what happens if the train unit fails does the whole system stop because it has lost a train. I would guess the unit in question would have to stop straight away and await rescue. If that is the case there will be a lot more failure points than now.

Surely the whole lot wouldn't come to a stand just because one train's ERTMS kit expired? Train detection is still by track circuit or axle counters, and I can't see that changing until they get moving block working (not for a while yet?), so the system still knows where the train is. As for the train itself, isn't there provision for authority to be given verbally if a movement authority can't be gained in the normal way - just like talking past a signal at danger?

 

[Ty'n'wtre nr 2]

Yes drivers can be given a movement authority by means of a written order dictated to the driver by the signaller.

It's much more problematical if there is an issue with the fixed lineside equipment, eg, balises, or the radio transmissions.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought Cornwall was going to have ERTMS installed next but it has been put off indefinitely because it doesnt work very well?

Great Western line to Bristol during electrification and then the southern East Coast as far as I know, then followed by bits of Thameslink and Crossrail. ERTMS is being trialled on several lines of varying specification throughout Europe, the UK was chosen to trial a implementation on a rural line. Main ongoing issue with ERTMS as far as I know however is congestion of the signals in busy major terminal stations. Not sure if they solved that yet but were talking about increasing the available spectrum.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/signalling/british-ertms-programme-moves-to-the-next-level.html