Your views, shoud local branding be widespread on trains?

[GrimsbyPacer]

I noticed some Northern Rail trains have a logo which says "Travel South Yorkshire". Why isn't a special South Yorkshire livery used on these trains?
Northern ran trains in Merseyrail colours on routes out of Liverpool. And they run red trains on some electric routes in full Metro branding.

My idea is that trains which usually run on specific routes or areas should be branded as a local metro to encourage rail use.
For example what about:
Special Robin Hood line livery since the trains rarely leave the line, it may help attract tourists to use the train?
Teesside Metro livery on current trains which already use the line, it may fool some into thinking the network got better?
Devon Coast livery on FGW Pacers may encourage more usage?

What are your throughts on this everyone?
I know a special livery exists on the Flying Scotsman and it looks to work.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In the past, many of what is now Northern's fleet had PTE liveries, including before privatisation. In Northern Spirit days local services were even announced at Leeds as "Metrotrain Services" some of the PTEs had their liveries used quite widely- WYPTE red and cream was applied to ALL 141s, 144s, 155s, the 10 WYPTE 158s, all bar one of the NL 307s (the remaining one stayed in NSE), all the NL 308s, and the three 321s. Tyne and Wear PTE livery was only applied to a handful of 142s and 143s. SYPTE only ever applied its own livery to one 1st gen DMU, and since then had no branding up until their logo was applied to the 144s and some Northern 153s. I think this might have been part of the deal where SYPTE funded the 4th 333 cars, to avoid the 321/322 sets being removed from Leeds to Doncaster services.
I personally am not in favour of local branding, simply because it isn't easy to keep the units on the routes where the branding is appropriate. Northern's diagrams are so complex in order to make the best use of stock, that units can often end up finishing the day many miles from where they started.

 

[40129]

I well remember a few years ago travelling on a Merseyrail liveried pacer from Huddersfield to Halifax, which the CIS announced as Liverpool Lime Street.

IIRC all LM 170s and 323s carry Network West Midlands logos

 

[LBSCR Times]

Local branding might work in some areas, but the more you restrict units to a specific area, the harder it becomes to diagram them operationally, especially at some of the bigger depots.
I remember many years ago the '1066' 4Cep units that were branded for the Hastings - London route. Because they worked to and from Ramsgate for exams, the South Eastern Control would issue variations when they wandered off the booked route / diagrams.
Even in later days, Southern's 377/2's had diagrammed work off the WCML.

 

[pemma]

I personally am not in favour of local branding, simply because it isn't easy to keep the units on the routes where the branding is appropriate.

Indeed. The 08:17 Manchester-Chester is worked by a 156 which finished the previous day at Preston C.S. which usually hasn't been cleaned since the previous day and it's common to find used newspapers/tickets which suggest it was used on Barrow services the previous day. The unit that works the 08:17 Manchester-Chester, is part of a diagram which includes a Wigan-Hazel Grove service, an Ellesmere Port-Warrington Bank Quay service and a Lime Street-Oxford Rd service. What ever branding that 156 has it would look very off-route at some point!

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Indeed. The 08:17 Manchester-Chester is worked by a 156 which finished the previous day at Preston C.S. which usually hasn't been cleaned since the previous day and it's common to find used newspapers/tickets which suggest it was used on Barrow services the previous day. The unit that works the 08:17 Manchester-Chester, is part of a diagram which includes a Wigan-Hazel Grove service, an Ellesmere Port-Warrington Bank Quay service and a Lime Street-Oxford Rd service. What ever branding that 156 has it would look very off-route at some point!

Northwest Express as a regional livery maybe?
I know they go out of region as I saw the logo for South Yorks on the train to Barton which doesn't go there. I just assume a livery would be no worse than a logo (or newspaper in your case) but had other benefits in making trains look better for locals.

 

[dosxuk]

I just assume a livery would be no worse than a logo (or newspaper in your case) but had other benefits in making trains look better for locals.

When I catch the train in South Yorkshire, I couldn't care less if the outside was painted to advertise the wonders of Barnsley, the delights of Sunderland or the grand approaches to Liverpool. I'm much more bothered by the fact the inside of the train doesn't look like it was cleaned since regional railways days.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

On seeing the thread title, I wondered if this was perhaps going to be a suggestion of an extreme measure to be taken against known troublemakers from a particular area. The thought had occurred to me before when sharing trains with drunken louts after football matches up here.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Northern have some 158s done up in liveries advertising a collection of towns: I'm sure Huddersfield station features on one. I've had a 153 with SYTPE annotation on a Manchester-Clitheroe peak service before, so they certainly get around! There's a 150 that was done up for the Colne Blues festival a few years back and that still exists today, with a route map of Preston-Colne and a couple of photos. Not seen it on the East Lancs in a while mind.

In Northern's defence they were once very eager promoting the places they served: they did line guide for Southport, Calderdale and one or two others, but I've not seen them about for years. One of the (arguably very few) things Northern deserve all the credit in the world for is their tireless avocation of local communities and local rail. Probably the best UK TOC along with FGW in that regard.

 

[gazthomas]

I would rather have cheaper fares, clean trains and on time services over branding or liveries any day

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Northern have some 158s done up in liveries advertising a collection of towns: I'm sure Huddersfield station features on one. I've had a 153 with SYTPE annotation on a Manchester-Clitheroe peak service before, so they certainly get around! There's a 150 that was done up for the Colne Blues festival a few years back and that still exists today, with a route map of Preston-Colne and a couple of photos. Not seen it on the East Lancs in a while mind.

In Northern's defence they were once very eager promoting the places they served: they did line guide for Southport, Calderdale and one or two others, but I've not seen them about for years. One of the (arguably very few) things Northern deserve all the credit in the world for is their tireless avocation of local communities and local rail. Probably the best UK TOC along with FGW in that regard.

The 158s with Huddersfield station on them are 901-910, the formerly Metro units. The 7 155s have the same branding, showing scenes from each of the metropolitan council areas that make up West Yorkshire. The main problem with this is that (a) it's a RAILWAY station, not a train station, and (b) I'm also not keen on the suggestion that the railway station (fine though it is) is the best attraction my hometown has to offer.
"Huddersfield Train Station, Kirklees" is stupid, because nobody from outside the area knows where Kirklees is (for the record, Kirklees Hall is actually in Calderdale!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I quite like the idea of line branding provided it's operationally convenient, particularly on things like single-unit regional lines. I also particularly like "partnership" logos on things, as it highlights an ideal I really quite like - authorities and companies working together to compete with the car by delivery of quality public transport rather than competing with each other over less than 10% of journeys nationally.

Neil

 

[tbtc]

How local is local? Specific to one service, one political council area, one depot?

As an example, the main bus company in Sheffield went from having its buses branded "Mainline" (South Yorkshire wide) to being branded "First South Yorkshire" (after very briefly being "First Sheffield") to being "First" (i.e. national)...

...to having huge "SHEFFIELD" branding and a sticker boasting of which local depot looks after the vehicle, with only a much smaller "First" on the side. Has it made any difference to passenger numbers though?

I think that more important is the way that different services are identifiable - e.g. the way that Stagecoach have different versions of the same colours so that you can quickly tell whether the train is the wrong one (e.g. you're waiting for a "fast" service, so you know you want a predominantly white one rather than a predominantly red or blue one).

Maybe, if the OP wants to focus on Northern, they could have one version for EMUs, one version for faster/long distance DMUs (158s) and one version for "local" DMUs, to give passengers more of a clue about which train at the station to look for.

(awaits comments about how Northern randomly stick any unit on any service and they put Pacers on everything etc etc)

The only other thing would be that branding could work where a TOC has a fleet specifically only for one service - e.g. the Moorgate 313s, the "Southside" 314s.

However, whilst branding might work on a bus (bus routes can have big enough PVRs to keep the same vehicle on them all day/week long, buses can clearly advertise their frequency to pedestrians/motorists stuck in traffic - so that non-bus users can read the tagline that it serves the local Hospital every fifteen minutes)...

...non-train users aren't going to notice branding on a train (trains are generally hidden away in cuttings/on embankments, trains go too fast to read many words on their sides etc), so I don't think it'd practically attract many new passengers who weren't already stood on a platform in the first place.

I noticed some Northern Rail trains have a logo which says "Travel South Yorkshire". Why isn't a special South Yorkshire livery used on these trains?

What services would you put "Travel South Yorkshire" branding on then?

There's maybe fifty (?) services an hour in South Yorkshire. Of these, only one is wholly contained to South Yorkshire's boundaries (Adwick to Sheffield, only that that direction - the Sheffield to Adwick service commences in Lincoln, and interworks with the Scunthorpe service) so you could only use the branded unit on one train an hour in one direction only. Non starter, sorry.

Plus, the units working Adwick to Sheffield are the 142s from Heaton that share a pool with those running to Carlisle/ Morpeth/ Middlesbrough/ Saltburn/ Bishop Auckland etc.

Local branding might work in some areas, but the more you restrict units to a specific area, the harder it becomes to diagram them operationally, especially at some of the bigger depots

Agreed. We generally don't have enough units as it is - restricting their use further (and stopping interworking) would be a waste.

Much bigger problems to worry about!

When I catch the train in South Yorkshire, I couldn't care less if the outside was painted to advertise the wonders of Barnsley, the delights of Sunderland or the grand approaches to Liverpool. I'm much more bothered by the fact the inside of the train doesn't look like it was cleaned since regional railways days.

Fair points

Northern have some 158s done up in liveries advertising a collection of towns: I'm sure Huddersfield station features on one. I've had a 153 with SYTPE annotation on a Manchester-Clitheroe peak service before, so they certainly get around! There's a 150 that was done up for the Colne Blues festival a few years back and that still exists today, with a route map of Preston-Colne and a couple of photos. Not seen it on the East Lancs in a while mind

I like the way that they've put pictures on their units - the 158s with images of Sheffield and Leeds - which I see more as "advertising places" than "branding the unit and restricting it to just one service". Tricky balance though

In Northern's defence they were once very eager promoting the places they served: they did line guide for Southport, Calderdale and one or two others, but I've not seen them about for years. One of the (arguably very few) things Northern deserve all the credit in the world for is their tireless avocation of local communities and local rail. Probably the best UK TOC along with FGW in that regard.

They do do some good, despite the relentless complaints on here about them - even when they do something positive it manages to get people upset (e.g. the WiFi at Bolton station thread).

Maybe it'll only be if/when Arriva/ GoAhead take over that people'll appreciate some of these little details (e.g. the new TOC not being fussed about all of the local user groups and all that)

You'll probably get moderated for using a reasonable phrase like "In Northern's defence" though

 

[Rapidash]

The FGW ones arnt too bad - has locations from across all of the South West, so they can go wherever they desire

 

[RichmondCommu]

In all honesty I think rail users pay very little attention to the appearance of trains, whether they are travelling on them or not. In fact I suspect most travelers could not tell you the colour of the trains that they use on a regular basis.

 

[47802]

Thursday this week

Train 1 Northern 155, floor filthy looked as if it had just come out of a bog, seats not too bad, panelling around the roof and windows looked though never been cleaned or painted since these trains introduced.

Train 2. Merseyrail 142, not much you can say about these really, except terrible seats, and generally dirty, smelly and disgusting.

Train 3. Northern 155, similar to Train 1.

Point is don't give a monkey's what the exterior colour scheme is like more concerned what the interior is like on a Northern train. plus of course Northern's random unit generator means most units are likely to end up anywhere.

 

[HSTEd]

Ideally we would have numerous local LO/Merseyrail style brands.
But that would require local railway trains to be operated as intensive networks rather than the hodgepodge we get today outside of certain limited areas.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think that PTA specific liveries are a very good idea. It suggests that the local government authority "cares" for its public transport and it does no harm if a specifically branded unit strays from its home turf. More importantly I would like to see far greater passenger transport authority involvement and support reintroduced to local rail services across the board, and a specific livery helps to make this involvement more visible.

Speaking as an enthusiast, the railways across the North of England were a far more colourful place during the nineties and early 2000s as a result of Regional Railways' predilection for local PTE liveries.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I noticed some Northern Rail trains have a logo which says "Travel South Yorkshire".....

I saw one of those logos last week, on a 153. It was on the Cumbrian Coast line. (Does the last part answer why I think it not a good idea?)

 

[Abpj17]

Some of the SE stock on loan to Thameslink has/had advertising for Switzerland on Far preferable to a local advert!

 

[RobShipway]

I think it would be better to have advertisements on trains for local companies, not just one's that are within the UK but are also local to the lines the train is serving.

With regards to local PTE branded trains is that in theory it is a good idea, in practice it has been shown in the past that the PTE that has had their colours on the train has not liked any of the trains being used outside of their PTE area. So agreement from the TOC, Leasing company and PTE would need to be sorted to get approvals to make this happen. Good luck with that part as I do not see it happening other than where it already exists!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I saw one of those logos last week, on a 153. It was on the Cumbrian Coast line. (Does the last part answer why I think it not a good idea?)

I'd agree it's not a good idea if you can't keep the units on-diagram. Same as bus route branding (though it is alleged that the reason they branded the routes in MK was not to keep the right buses on them, but to allow the old MK Metro livery to be sneaked away in favour of Arriva colours, which they now use mostly without branding). However, it looks downright unprofessional if stuff gets mixed up.

As others have said, if it isn't possible to keep units on one service, I like the "decorating" of units like Northern have themed around places on their network without being branded to run in particular locations.

Neil

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I saw one of those logos last week, on a 153. It was on the Cumbrian Coast line. (Does the last part answer why I think it not a good idea?)

I saw it in Grimsby on another 153 service which doesn't go to South Yorks.
But would a special livery be any worse than a logo which is seen anyway?

 

[pne]

I personally am not in favour of local branding, simply because it isn't easy to keep the units on the routes where the branding is appropriate. Northern's diagrams are so complex in order to make the best use of stock, that units can often end up finishing the day many miles from where they started.

Hm, so what we do is apply huge LED panels to the outside of trains and then the branding can be changed at a second's notice.

Also makes it a piece of cake to re-brand if the franchise owner ever changes; no need to re-paing the thing, just download a new skin file to the LED controller.

On seeing the thread title, I wondered if this was perhaps going to be a suggestion of an extreme measure to be taken against known troublemakers from a particular area. The thought had occurred to me before when sharing trains with drunken louts after football matches up here.

"Regional branding" as in "brand them on their nether regions"?

 

[me123]

I'd agree it's not a good idea if you can't keep the units on-diagram. Same as bus route branding (though it is alleged that the reason they branded the routes in MK was not to keep the right buses on them, but to allow the old MK Metro livery to be sneaked away in favour of Arriva colours, which they now use mostly without branding). However, it looks downright unprofessional if stuff gets mixed up.

That's pretty much what I think about things as well. It can be confusing up here in Aberdeen where First Bus brand most of their buses - a number 3 bus comes along, decorated with advertising for the number 23 (for example). The same issue happened in Glasgow, although that's now mostly been withdrawn AFAIK.

I think it's the same for trains, too, on the whole. If the advertising isn't done right, it just looks like the train's on the wrong route, and at worst could cause some confusion for passengers (for example, getting on a train at Leeds going to Harrogate, with Scarborough advertising livery). If you are going to do it, it needs to be slightly understated to overcome this issue - ensure the train looks like it's advertising the destination, and not necessarily going to it!

 

[3141]

"Huddersfield Train Station, Kirklees" is stupid, because nobody from outside the area knows where Kirklees is (for the record, Kirklees Hall is actually in Calderdale!).

I suspect not many know where Calderdale is, either. I do know it's Halifax. (That sentence is designed to enrage residents of Brighouse, Elland, Sowerby Bridge, Todmorden, and the other constituent places I've missed out.)

Thameside and Thamesdown strike me as more examples of names no-one should be proud of having dreamed up.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I suspect not many know where Calderdale is, either. I do know it's Halifax. (That sentence is designed to enrage residents of Brighouse, Elland, Sowerby Bridge, Todmorden, and the other constituent places I've missed out.)

Thameside and Thamesdown strike me as more examples of names no-one should be proud of having dreamed up.

I've never heard of Thamesdown. The other one I hear often as Essex Thameside to avoid confusion.
Hyndburn which is where Accrington is has caused confusion too.

 

[davyp]

I have always assumed that the regular/daily 150/156 units with various versions of the "Visit Yorkshire" branding on the Buxton line were to entice us across the Pennines. With scenery in abundance on the journey up the hill from Hazel Grove to Buxton why go to Yorkshire .... ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suspect not many know where Calderdale is, either. I do know it's Halifax. (That sentence is designed to enrage residents of Brighouse, Elland, Sowerby Bridge, Todmorden, and the other constituent places I've missed out.)

Thameside and Thamesdown strike me as more examples of names no-one should be proud of having dreamed up.

At least Calderdale has some geographic reference to the area, as I presume those other two do. Quite a few of the post-1974 local authority areas have names seemingly designed to not offend those not living in the main centre of population. Kirklees particularly grates because it has no connection with anywhere within its boundaries. Calling it Huddersfield, or Colne Valley Council would apparently disenfranchise residents of Dewsbury, Batley, Heckmondwike and Holmfirth (as a native of Huddersfield, I wouldn't have an issue).

Getting back on topic, regional advertising makes sense more than for example branding a unit as "the Penistone flyer" and confining it to that route. If passengers at Hebden Bridge boarding a 158 with a Settle and Carlisle wrap decide to spend their Saturday walking around the Dales having got there by train, then that can only be a good thing. Whether such things actually work is another thing altogether.
Timing is also key: there was mention upthread about a Northern 150 still carrying branding for an event from at least three years ago, and likewise 185108 looks a bit absurd with the Capital of Culture branding in 2015. Northern's yellow Tour de France 158 was a brilliant idea, but the branding only appeared a week or so before the event. Ideally it'd have spent the previous six weeks or more visiting Blackpool, Nottingham, Manchester and Hull/Scarborough.

 

[pemma]

I have always assumed that the regular/daily 150/156 units with various versions of the "Visit Yorkshire" branding on the Buxton line were to entice us across the Pennines. With scenery in abundance on the journey up the hill from Hazel Grove to Buxton why go to Yorkshire .... ?

I recall when Richard Wilson was doing a Dispatches program he got a 150/2 which hadn't been refurbished on a Calder Vale service with "Welcome to Yorkshire" vinyls and the interior lights had failed in one carriage - not a good advert for Yorkshire but he did at least point out the service was punctual.