Zones 1-4 One Day Travelcard

[LS-Colin]

I just wanted to add my opinion about the withdrawal of the Zones 1-4 (Off-Peak) Travelcard from the January fares increase. Myself and most other people usually have no reason to go beyond Zones 1 and 2 when visiting central London. TfL withdrew the Zones 1-2 Off-Peak Travelcard some time ago, forcing passengers to then pay for Zones 3 and 4 they don't want. And now they've substantially increased the price of this ticket further with the withdrawal of the Off-Peak version.

To the best of my knowledge TfL holds the un-enviable title of being the most expensive and unfair public transport system in the world.

The fares system has become so complex to the point where many passengers are probably paying far more than they need to for their journeys (a cunning ploy by TfL no doubt). The Zone system has deteriorated to the point where it is almost meaningless with all the numerous exceptions, stations outside the original Zoned areas and variable fares within a Zone depending whether you're on a bus, tube or train!

Short distance travel has been deterred and virtually killed off as there are no longer any bus fare stages - you have to pay to travel to the end of the route whether you want to or not. How have the incompetent powers that be enabled the fares structure to deteriorate into this appalling mess.

It would no doubt be far simpler (and fairer) to return to the old point to point ticketing system. At least we'd be able to understand it and only pay for what we want.

 

[Mojo]

If you don't want to buy a Travelcard when why don't you use Oyster or a CPC, where you can still get unlimited travel for zones 1-2 for £6.40 per day?

Not sure that the zone system is meaningless at all, nor that you are being penalised for making short journeys. Off Peak the TfL rate for any journey within zones 2-6 is £1.50 (or £1 with a Railcard). In my opinion this is exceptional value given the journey possibilities you could make.

Similarly on the buses; £1.50 is exceptional value given how far you could travel. Take a look at bus fares in other British cities, the minimum fare in Birmingham for example is £1.90, and that will get you not very far at all. Bristol has a £1 flat fare that will get you three stops (what's the point?) but any more than that and you are paying £1.50 minimum fare. It's commonplace all over the world to have a flat-fare structure on buses. Not sure that it's a mess at all. The Dickensian idea of fare stages named after pubs that probably shut down a decade ago is one system that is a bit of a mess however!

PS: Moved thread to the correct forum.

 

[yorkie]

appalling mess.

It would no doubt be far simpler (and fairer) to return to the old point to point ticketing system. At least we'd be able to understand it and only pay for what we want.

While I agree with your concerns about the price of Travelcards, you don't have to get one at all. You can simply use a contactless bank card (or Oyster card) to pay for point-to-point journeys. If you make a lot of journeys, then the relevant cap will apply.

 

[paul1609]

I just wanted to add my opinion about the withdrawal of the Zones 1-4 (Off-Peak) Travelcard from the January fares increase. Myself and most other people usually have no reason to go beyond Zones 1 and 2 when visiting central London. TfL withdrew the Zones 1-2 Off-Peak Travelcard some time ago, forcing passengers to then pay for Zones 3 and 4 they don't want. And now they've substantially increased the price of this ticket further with the withdrawal of the Off-Peak version.

To the best of my knowledge TfL holds the un-enviable title of being the most expensive and unfair public transport system in the world.

The fares system has become so complex to the point where many passengers are probably paying far more than they need to for their journeys (a cunning ploy by TfL no doubt). The Zone system has deteriorated to the point where it is almost meaningless with all the numerous exceptions, stations outside the original Zoned areas and variable fares within a Zone depending whether you're on a bus, tube or train!

Short distance travel has been deterred and virtually killed off as there are no longer any bus fare stages - you have to pay to travel to the end of the route whether you want to or not. How have the incompetent powers that be enabled the fares structure to deteriorate into this appalling mess.

It would no doubt be far simpler (and fairer) to return to the old point to point ticketing system. At least we'd be able to understand it and only pay for what we want.

If you want a paper ticket you've got to pay for it. I reckon they will be gone in london and the SE within 10 years.

 

[island]

A substantial minority of passengers do not trust Oyster cards as they are distrustful of the system, have been overcharged or given maximum cash fares in the past, or are "not very good with technology".

Incidentally, the zone 1-4 off peak Travelcard was withdrawn in early 2014.

 

[Flamingo]

TfL Must LOVE Oyster cards. They have a few hundred million pounds sitting in their bank - sorry, sitting on "dormant" (i.e. lost) Oystercards, and more money for nothing rolling in every day in interest free permanent loans. No wonder they are trying to get everybody to use them! Plus, the more of them there are, the more staff they can cut. Win - Win in their book.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-is-stuck-on-unused-oyster-cards-8678423.html

 

[causton]

I am issuing sometimes 10 or more new Oyster cards a day to people, many with contactless cards - I inform them they can use their cards and none of them want to "Ooh no, I don't trust it" or similar. Ponder that thought... perhaps TfL aren't quite winning people to Contactless...

 

[bb21]

There may still be a psychological barrier in some people's minds, given that the loss on an Oyster card is limited, whereas if your bank card is a victim of fraud for whatever reason, the loss can be huge. (True or not matters not, only what people perceive as being the truth.)

 

[jon0844]

If I didn't have the Gold Card on my Oyster I think I'd have switched to contact less now.

But I suspect that a lot of people hearing the announcements about card clash and contactless may not actually realise what it is taking about and that they can just use one of their bank cards (most likely enabled in most cases) to travel. I bet some of these people who might not have Oyster may even use their card to buy a paper ticket!

 

[causton]

I bet some of these people who might not have Oyster may even use their card to buy a paper ticket!

Some? A lot! I used to start telling people, but nobody wants to use them if they're not already... Mainly people on expenses though, so they would rather a paper ticket and a receipt they can send off easily than use their card and have to send in statements or logs or whatever...

 

[Fiyero]

If I didn't have the Gold Card on my Oyster I think I'd have switched to contact less now.

I would in a heartbeat if my gold card discount could be linked, I have a Barclaycard bPay wristband which would work beautifully!

 

[LS-Colin]

I am with many other members on here whom have a strong distrusted view of the Oyster Card and Contactless Payment systems. The formidable amount of money TfL has acuminated in their Oyster bank through passengers being confused, overcharged or system errors is obscene to say the least. It certainly casts doubt over whether Oyster is in the passengers or TfL's best favour. It's only popular because their is little alternative. We must also remember that because something is modern and new doesn't mean that it is better than what it is supposed to replace. Too many people seem to just roll over and accept whatever is offered to them because it's new and 'cool'.

 

[erk]

many other members on here whom have a strong distrusted view of the Oyster Card

Before Oyster I used to take care to arrive at Euston with the exact fare in coins for Zone 1-2 single, so as to be able to quickly use any ticket machine in the scrum (even the one demanding coins only, no change given). Now I just touch in and I'm on my way. When it's getting low I top up on line (and I could use auto top up). And I get a railcard discount.

What's not to like?

 

[PermitToTravel]

The tracking and civil liberties implications seem to scare a few people.

Plenty more have just been overcharged once and stick to paper tickets which it's far harder to go wrong with.

 

[jon0844]

I am with many other members on here whom have a strong distrusted view of the Oyster Card and Contactless Payment systems. The formidable amount of money TfL has acuminated in their Oyster bank through passengers being confused, overcharged or system errors is obscene to say the least. It certainly casts doubt over whether Oyster is in the passengers or TfL's best favour. It's only popular because their is little alternative. We must also remember that because something is modern and new doesn't mean that it is better than what it is supposed to replace. Too many people seem to just roll over and accept whatever is offered to them because it's new and 'cool'.

I am not sure it matters that much how much TfL has accumulated, as it's a tiny amount per person. And people can cash in their card if they so wish. If a card is lost that wasn't registered, well why not register it?!

The benefits of Oyster to me are huge, which is why I got one at the earliest possible opportunity. It saves me a lot over paper tickets on some National Rail trips, and is so quick and easy. Turn up at a station and tap in, or jump on a bus and tap in.

No worries about what the fare is, or if I have the right money. No queuing to buy a ticket and no problems if my travel plans change. Travel more than I expected and there's no need to buy an extension or a new ticket, or realise that my single trip is now actually a return as my lift home was cancelled - and if I'd known it would have cost 5 or 10p more, but now it's a whole new ticket.

You get the idea?

Oyster has probably saved people a fortune, so I doubt anyone is out of pocket. Let TfL earn some interest on that money they have, to re-invest in the service.

(But I do agree that not everything new is always good - except this isn't such an example).

 

[bicbasher]

I don't have a contactless card currently as my bank won't give them to people with the basic current account (Metro Bank and some minor banks do), yet if given the choice, I'd only use it if I had no credit on my Oyster card. I have a 7 day bus and tram pass and PAYG for rail on it as I don't commute using rail more than three times a week.

Using a paper travelcard is going to be a rare option for me now it's £12.

 

[Abpj17]

TfL Must LOVE Oyster cards. They have a few hundred million pounds sitting in their bank - sorry, sitting on "dormant" (i.e. lost) Oystercards, and more money for nothing rolling in every day in interest free permanent loans. No wonder they are trying to get everybody to use them! Plus, the more of them there are, the more staff they can cut. Win - Win in their book.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-is-stuck-on-unused-oyster-cards-8678423.html

slight exaggeration? how did £100mn become 'a few hundred million'?

contactless cards have the potential to remove the very significant sum that is currently held as deposits and contactless won't see excess balances being held.

TfL has always had huge amounts of cash going across its books - contactless adds to that, but it was always thus.

Much of the tracking/privacy stuff applies weakly in London. London and TfL property/services are heavily covered by CCTV. Cards might make it easier, but tracking can be done via CCTV too (which is arguably essential given timeless security risks)

 

[FenMan]

If you want a paper ticket you've got to pay for it. I reckon they will be gone in london and the SE within 10 years.

Wouldn't that be contingent on all the TOCs (1) moving to electronic ticketing and (2) withdrawing paper alternatives in that time?

TfL would have have problems moving to 100% paperless ticketing while paper tickets are still needed for cross-London transfers and out-boundary Travelcards.

 

[MikeWh]

Oyster has probably saved people a fortune,

Agreed wholeheartedly,

so I doubt anyone is out of pocket.

Stongly disagree. As a percentage of users it will be very small, but there definitely will be people who sadly have fallen foul of the system. When it is used properly, including registration, then people won't be out of pocket even if things go wrong (eg emergency evacuation, sports event). But the issues of anonimity, civil liberties, tracking or just pure laziness mean that there will always be some who can't be refunded an error.

In the not too distant future Oyster will have to move to the same back office system as contactless currently uses, and that will have the effect of reducing overcharges still further, even if the user desires to remain anonymous.

 

[island]

There may still be a psychological barrier in some people's minds, given that the loss on an Oyster card is limited, whereas if your bank card is a victim of fraud for whatever reason, the loss can be huge. (True or not matters not, only what people perceive as being the truth.)

Indeed. The reality is that a lost unregistered/unprotected Oyster card is equivalent to losing cash, whereas your bank will refund unauthorised transactions (including contactless).

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I am issuing sometimes 10 or more new Oyster cards a day to people, many with contactless cards - I inform them they can use their cards and none of them want to "Ooh no, I don't trust it" or similar. Ponder that thought... perhaps TfL aren't quite winning people to Contactless...

I tried switching to a contactless bank card but have gone back to Oyster, because the contactless card was so unreliable. It often refused to work the gate, or it would let you in but not let you out at the other end. Maybe it is an issue with my specific bank card - it's quite old and worn.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I do have a Gold Card but choose to use Contactless for the rare occasions I end up out at the far end of the Metropolitan Line. I find the convenience of not having to have £5 or £10 of my money tied up on a card I use once in a blue moon worth the extra 50p fare (compared to Oyster with discount loaded).

Paper travelcards are really now only the most sensible option for people who are either spending a long time on stations or doing a large number of circular journeys (so trainspotters, basically). For everyone else Oyster or CPC is the best option, even tourists- foreign CPCs will work on TfL just as well as UK ones.

 

[MikeWh]

I tried switching to a contactless bank card but have gone back to Oyster, because the contactless card was so unreliable. It often refused to work the gate, or it would let you in but not let you out at the other end. Maybe it is an issue with my specific bank card - it's quite old and worn.

I find that the most reliable way to touch my CPC is to hold it at a slight angle rather than flat against the reader. A fingertip under one side is enough to ensure acceptance. This tip was thanks to a very helpful member of staff at a tube station.

even tourists- foreign CPCs will work on TfL just as well as UK ones.

They will in most cases, though the transaction charges can seriously inflate the fares paid, even when consolidated to one charge a day.

 

[maniacmartin]

I tried using CPC for a while. I have a few CPC cards, and often (1/3 of the time) the card would error on the reader and I'd have to resort to Oyster. There is no indication of what the problem is, and gateline are unable to help. Coupled with inability to load railcard discounts, CPC on TfL just isn't reliable or cheap enough for me to rely on.

Regarding Oyster, I'm sure the majority of RUK users can manage it, but my parents who visit London only occasionally always mess it up and incur maximum journey charges. They forget to touch in if an assistant is holding the gate open, walk past the post readers without touching, and carry on walking if there is a double beep. That's why I always advise paper for them. What may seem intuitive to us is confusing to a significant minority (especially non-Londoners) in a way a paper ticket isn't.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The reliability of UK cards has improved a lot since the introduction of the scheme, but a friend still had all of his Dutch cards refused on every bus he tried recently.

 

[Deerfold]

I just wanted to add my opinion about the withdrawal of the Zones 1-4 (Off-Peak) Travelcard from the January fares increase. Myself and most other people usually have no reason to go beyond Zones 1 and 2 when visiting central London. TfL withdrew the Zones 1-2 Off-Peak Travelcard some time ago, forcing passengers to then pay for Zones 3 and 4 they don't want. And now they've substantially increased the price of this ticket further with the withdrawal of the Off-Peak version.

To the best of my knowledge TfL holds the un-enviable title of being the most expensive and unfair public transport system in the world.

I'm not a huge fan of the recent changes, but seriously? The most expensive and unfair system in the world? There's plenty of areas of the UK which would be closer to that challenge!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Everywhere else in the UK that offers one-day ranger tickets only offer one ticket for the whole area (e.g. West Yorkshire or Tyne and Wear Day Rover). The West Yorkshire ticket, for instance, is eight quid and has a weekday evening peak restriction that makes it almost useless.

Unless you're a trainspotter- i.e. doing loads of circular journeys or spending 90 minutes at the end of the platform at Clapham Junction- you don't need the paper ticket and the discounts on Oyster are worthwhile.

As for the "unfairness" of the flat stage fares, the flat fare on London buses is £1.50. That compares nicely with the £1.90 I paid yesterday for a bus ride from Hemel Hempstead town centre to my house, a distance of a little under 1.5 miles.

 

[island]

The reliability of UK cards has improved a lot since the introduction of the scheme, but a friend still had all of his Dutch cards refused on every bus he tried recently.

Many Dutch cards are issued on the V-Pay card scheme which isn't accepted by TfL.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Ah, that's good to know thanks

 

[Be3G]

Paper travelcards are really now only the most sensible option for people who are either spending a long time on stations or doing a large number of circular journeys (so trainspotters, basically). For everyone else Oyster or CPC is the best option, even tourists- foreign CPCs will work on TfL just as well as UK ones.

Don't forget those of us with railcards that can't be loaded on to an Oyster (e.g. Network). The fact that we have to stick to paper travelcards is what really irks me about the London approach of pricing paper tickets higher than the electronic equivalent ‘to encourage people to use Oyster’.