Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Y961 XBU]

Is it true the Liverpool - Wigan Line may see some trips extended to Preston once the 319s are done as thats what someones trying to tell me

 

[northwichcat]

Is it true the Liverpool - Wigan Line may see some trips extended to Preston once the 319s are done as thats what someones trying to tell me

DfT said Northern can look at splitting up some or all Liverpool-Blackpool services from the autumn to use 319s on the section south of Preston and release DMUs for services elsewhere. However, it's being looked at rather than being a confirmed deal.

I wonder if DfT realise Blackpool has a lot of visitors in the evenings during the autumn for the illuminations.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it true the Liverpool - Wigan Line may see some trips extended to Preston once the 319s are done as thats what someones trying to tell me

There is no change in the weekday frequency of services via St Helens Central in the new franchise spec.
An extra Sunday service is specified between Liverpool and Wigan making 2tph.
Short term, Blackpool services might be split at Preston to allow Liverpool-Preston to run with 319s and release more DMUs, but this is not confirmed.
Getting rid of the unsuitable 150s on the route would be a good thing in my view.
The TPE bidders might introduce Liverpool-Scotland portion working with the Manchester services, but we will have to await the winning bid to find out.

 

[Y961 XBU]

There is no change in the weekday frequency of services via St Helens Central in the new franchise spec.
An extra Sunday service is specified between Liverpool and Wigan making 2tph.
Short term, Blackpool services might be split at Preston to allow Liverpool-Preston to run with 319s and release more DMUs, but this is not confirmed.
Getting rid of the unsuitable 150s on the route would be a good thing in my view.
The TPE bidders might introduce Liverpool-Scotland portion working with the Manchester services, but we will have to await the winning bid to find out.

Is there a date for this Sunday Improvement yet?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there a date for this Sunday Improvement yet?

At the Dec 2017 timetable change (when all the NW electric routes are live).

 

[northwichcat]

Is there a date for this Sunday Improvement yet?

At the Dec 2017 timetable change (when all the NW electric routes are live).

December 2017 is the date extra services are required from. It is possible that franchise bidders could propose additional services sooner if the stock is available, as Govia proposed with longer trains on Southern services. Sunday improvements would likely be easier to implement early than weekday improvements which are more independent on getting additional carriages and infrastructure changes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

December 2017 is the date extra services are required from. It is possible that franchise bidders could propose additional services sooner if the stock is available, as Govia proposed with longer trains on Southern services. Sunday improvements would likely be easier to implement early than weekday improvements which are more independent on getting additional carriages and infrastructure changes.

It will no doubt depend on when DfT is prepared to pay for the new services.
Most of these Sunday services could operate now if they were funded.

 

[northwichcat]

It will no doubt depend on when DfT is prepared to pay for the new services.
Most of these Sunday services could operate now if they were funded.

Prior to the Northern Direct Award being granted there were Sunday services operating over and above the minimum requirement on some lines (Atherton, Stoke, Mid-Cheshire, Hazel Grove and possibly others) but I think the additional services were added in to the franchise agreement when the Direct Award was awarded.

 

[notadriver]

Does anyone know if the 319s compete on the same routes as TPE's class 185s?

 

[WatcherZero]

Prior to the Northern Direct Award being granted there were Sunday services operating over and above the minimum requirement on some lines (Atherton, Stoke, Mid-Cheshire, Hazel Grove and possibly others) but I think the additional services were added in to the franchise agreement when the Direct Award was awarded.

They were TfGM sponsored and adopted into the Direct Award. Dft had actually tried to jip them by not picking them up after three years as they were supposed to do (Dft is supposed to take over financing services sponsored by local authorities that have run profitably for three years) and by originally refusing to refund TfGM the revenue from the services they were taking from Northern because they were in excess of their revenue cap.

So had the situation where TfGM was paying for a service to operate on a revenue risk arrangement (TfGM pay for service, Northern returns revenue earned up to cost of providing service and then can keep excess), Northern got 20% of the revenue to refund TfGM with and Dft was pocketing 80% when it had not taken any financial risk on the service.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Does anyone know if the 319s compete on the same routes as TPE's class 185s?

185s run Liverpool-Manchester Victoria (and on to Newcastle) and through Ordsall Lane Junction to Manchester Airport (on routes from beyond Preston), so they do run on the same tracks, but I can't suggest they 'compete' in any of the usual senses.

 

[DJH1971]

I wonder when they will test a 319 between Huyton to Wigan, following yesterday's test by Mentor?

 

[northwichcat]

They were TfGM sponsored and adopted into the Direct Award.

Only Atherton and Hazel Grove were which both had footnotes in the timetables saying about the Sunday services being TfGM funded and would continue as long as funding permitted.

Cheshire East council claimed they funded the additional Stoke line service on a Sunday morning, while I saw something from TfGM that claimed they funded it with Cheshire East council. Maybe it's a bit like the subsided 289 Northwich-Altrincham bus where Cheshire East provide most of the funding and awarded the contract but there's a smaller amounts of funding from Cheshire West and TfGM?

I've heard off numerous sources including Northern themselves that the last TfGM/GMPTE subsided train on the Mid-Cheshire line was all the way back in 1992. The arrangement of having a 3 hourly Chester-Altrincham only Sunday service was because GMPTE realised they had financial problems the same year Metrolink launched, so GMPTE didn't see the point of funding any Mid-Cheshire Sunday services when they had just launched a tram service. The 2008 Sunday enhancement was apparently a decision Northern made (according to Northern themselves and MCRUA) and a very successful one as Sunday patronage grew by 400% as a result of it (using MCRUA passenger counts.)

 

[KendalKing]

Does anybody know why 319366 was in the sidings south of Carnforth Station this morning?

 

[Geeves]

Wigan men are training between Preston and Carnforth. Hope this helps!

 

[KendalKing]

Wigan men are training between Preston and Carnforth. Hope this helps!

Interesting, seeing that they are supposed to be getting used on the Preston/Wigan - Liverpool route, I would of expected them to be training between Wigan and Preston. So I wonder if they are plans to run them further north...

 

[Loop & Link]

Deleted

 

[Statto]

Any idea what diagrams the 319s will be doing tomorrow, hoping for either 16.16 or 17.13 ex Lime Street?

 

[fowler9]

Any idea what diagrams the 319s will be doing tomorrow, hoping for either 16.16 or 17.13 ex Lime Street?

I believe they are the same every day at the mo. 06:16 and every three hours thereafter. I don't know the other diagram. Starts with the 7:16 from Lime Street.

 

[507 001]

Any idea what diagrams the 319s will be doing tomorrow, hoping for either 16.16 or 17.13 ex Lime Street?

The 16:16 is usually a 156.

The 14:13 and 15:13 are definitely 319s so I would imagine the 17:13 will be too.

 

[fowler9]

The 16:16 is usually a 156.

The 14:13 and 15:13 are definitely 319s so I would imagine the 17:13 will be too.

Well I got the 18:40 from the airport back to Lime Street the other week so I' say that would be right. It's a funny diagram though. The 07:16 doesn't come straight back to Lime Street. Ah well. Someone with more knowledge than me will tell you soon no doubt.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well I got the 18:40 from the airport back to Lime Street the other week so I' say that would be right. It's a funny diagram though. The 07:16 doesn't come straight back to Lime Street. Ah well. Someone with more knowledge than me will tell you soon no doubt.

The 0716 to Manchester Airport forms the 0840 back to Lime Street. It then forms the 1416 to Manchester Airport and 1540 return, then the 1713 to Manchester Airport and 1840 return.

 

[fowler9]

The 0716 to Manchester Airport forms the 0840 back to Lime Street. It then forms the 1416 to Manchester Airport and 1540 return, then the 1713 to Manchester Airport and 1840 return.

Cheers mate, I knew someone more informed than I would be along.

 

[Class 170101]

I wonder when they will test a 319 between Huyton to Wigan, following yesterday's test by Mentor?

Tonight and tomorrow night
credit to nw sparks
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2112105&postcount=4407

 

[Statto]

The 0716 to Manchester Airport forms the 0840 back to Lime Street. It then forms the 1416 to Manchester Airport and 1540 return, then the 1713 to Manchester Airport and 1840 return.

Cheers i'll get the 17.13.

 

[po8crg]

The 319 timetable is here

 

[Llama]

Interesting, seeing that they are supposed to be getting used on the Preston/Wigan - Liverpool route, I would of expected them to be training between Wigan and Preston. So I wonder if they are plans to run them further north...

There are only suitable paths available north of Preston, using similar paths to those used for the 350s the TPE drivers trained on a couple of years ago.

The 319s will not appear on any other diagrams to those already posted until May, putting them on other diagrams would cause all sorts of crewing problems, ie Northern would probably end up with a 319 stuck at Oxford Rd (usual crew relief point on a 1H4x / 1F9x) with nobody competent to move it.

 

[LeylandLen]

Excuse my ignorance on this, but I assume most Northern drivers are use to driving DMUS . I know some work EMUs on Glossop line plus EMUs on the line to Stoke. Is there much training involved in learning to drive a 319 , and how long is needed before a driver qualifies to drive a 319? Does he (or she ) carry any documentation to show what trains / locos they are qualified to drive ?

 

[fowler9]

Excuse my ignorance on this, but I assume most Northern drivers are use to driving DMUS . I know some work EMUs on Glossop line plus EMUs on the line to Stoke. Is there much training involved in learning to drive a 319 , and how long is needed before a driver qualifies to drive a 319? Does he (or she ) carry any documentation to show what trains / locos they are qualified to drive ?

Yes and yes as I understand it. Drivers sign various classes and routes. My mate signs everything Northern use that comes in to Lime Street. He couldn't drive a 323 or a 158 anywhere, at the moment at least. Someone with more knowledge will explain it much better than me no doubt but there is quite a lot to it. It isn't like if you have a driving license you can get away with climbing in to any car.

 

[Class377/5]

Excuse my ignorance on this, but I assume most Northern drivers are use to driving DMUS . I know some work EMUs on Glossop line plus EMUs on the line to Stoke. Is there much training involved in learning to drive a 319 , and how long is needed before a driver qualifies to drive a 319? Does he (or she ) carry any documentation to show what trains / locos they are qualified to drive ?

There'd be a fair amount to learn. The traction course for a 377 to a 387 is a couple of days and they are fairly the same trains. It does vary between TOCs but the different between an EMU and a DMU is a lot. You need to know the process for dealing with issues with the power systems (ie overhead wires) but be familiar with the set up to spot any possibles issues with it (not always possible, especially as speed). Is not just as simple as being taught about the unit.