Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[ComUtoR]

Is there much training involved in learning to drive a 319

Depends on how much and how deep the traction course is. Actually driving it takes a single trip and you adapt pretty fast. You are already route trained and can drive a train so it is very much just adapting existing skills.

As already mentioned you also need AC/DC lines rules etc but I thought those were already core rules knowledge.

... and how long is needed before a driver qualifies to drive a 319?

4 days

Potentially just a cab conversion for some. Not got a clue about Northern colleagues but some traction only requires cab conversions depending on what you already sign. No doubt someone will know what current traction would only require a cab conversion.

Does he (or she ) carry any documentation to show what trains / locos they are qualified to drive ?

Anyone with the new EU license has a counterfoil part with traction and routes listed. Every Driver will get this. Currently its just on file somewhere and when you sign the statement of readiness you declare that you are competent on all routes and traction you are booked on. I'm not 100% on what appears on my license but I do carry it at all times whilst on duty. No traction or routes are listed om my current license.


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It does vary between TOCs but the different between an EMU and a DMU is a lot. .

That is a good example of why they would need a full traction course. EMU to EMU I suspect is very minimal. I use a CPBC (Combined power/brake controller) and and the 319 has two handles. DMU's I got no clue. Any EMU with a CPBC would feel natural to me. I remember signing up a 376 and there is very little in driving style to adapt.

Reading on this forum about the crazy folk who put fuel in their trains certainly weirds me out a bit.

 

[childwallblues]

Excuse my ignorance on this, but I assume most Northern drivers are use to driving DMUS . I know some work EMUs on Glossop line plus EMUs on the line to Stoke. Is there much training involved in learning to drive a 319 , and how long is needed before a driver qualifies to drive a 319? Does he (or she ) carry any documentation to show what trains / locos they are qualified to drive ?

I would imagine only Manchester Piccadilly staff sign 323s and are not currently involved in 319 training.
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319362 is due to be named "Northern Powerhouse" at Manchester Piccadilly today.

 

[Statto]

I caught the 17.13 yesterday which was held up by the delayed 17.10 Newcastle TPE, my thoughts the seating a bit meh, seating felt like a 150 but bit more legroom, but quick accelerating, 6 minutes late in departing Lime Street, & when i alighted at St Helens Junction but seen on Realtime Trains it was 1 minute late by the time it got to Manchester Airport.

I do think the Manchester Airport-Liverpool route is better suited to Chat Moss & the 319s, rather than proposed diversion via Warrington replacing the TPE once electrification is completed.

 

[507021]

319362 has been named Northern Powerhouse. Credit to Northern Rail's Facebook page

 

[Viscount702]

Wasn't 362 the one that broke down recently and was awaiting repairs.

Also I hope it wasn't named on either platforms 13 or 14 because if it was it must have been holding other services up.

A quick check on RTT would indicate a quick trip from and to Allerton and a naming on Platform 1

 

[156441]

319362 was working the short diagram today (eg 0716/1416/1713) .
It was taken at 1045 from Lime Street as 5T01 and returned from Piccadilly at 1227 to Lime Street as 5T02 to resume its diagram.

It was carrying it's new nameplate (albeit covered with card) on the 0716 this morning.

 

[LeylandLen]

319362 has been named Northern Powerhouse. Credit to Northern Rail's Facebook page

Yes I saw George Osborne doing the honours on BBC/Granada regional news with an Item on proposed Northern Powerhouse . I assume there is a relevant thread somewhere?

 

[northwichcat]

Yes I saw George Osborne doing the honours on BBC/Granada regional news with an Item on proposed Northern Powerhouse . I assume there is a relevant thread somewhere?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=113580

 

[LeylandLen]

Thanks for all the relevant information.
One further question.. as I see 319s have made a test run to Wigan NW ,will they eventually run up WCML through Leyland to Preston ? I assume they will eventually run to Blackpool when its all electrified ??

Referring to the thread about Northern Powerhouse, someone states that the 319s are 28 years old? Can you confirm this? I know they are recycled !! from London area ,(did Thameslink use them ,? ) Now if Northern were to 'borrow' a Class 333 I used recently on a Bradford FS/ Skipton / Leeds trip.....sorry, just daydreaming again !!!

 

[507021]

Referring to the thread about Northern Powerhouse, someone states that the 319s are 28 years old? Can you confirm this? I know they are recycled !! from London area ,(did Thameslink use them ,? )

The Class 319s being cascaded to Northern Rail are 25 years old

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks for all the relevant information.
One further question.. as I see 319s have made a test run to Wigan NW ,will they eventually run up WCML through Leyland to Preston ? I assume they will eventually run to Blackpool when its all electrified ??

Referring to the thread about Northern Powerhouse, someone states that the 319s are 28 years old? Can you confirm this? I know they are recycled !! from London area ,(did Thameslink use them ,? ) Now if Northern were to 'borrow' a Class 333 I used recently on a Bradford FS/ Skipton / Leeds trip.....sorry, just daydreaming again !!!

Whilst acknowledging that this was tongue-in-cheek, the hard part would be getting it there! Additionally the 333s are 23m units with wide(ish) bodies so would presumably have similar gauging issues as the 323s (I.e., would be fine on the South Manchester lines, the extra vehicle notwithstanding).

 

[krus_aragon]

*notes that the 319 cascade has now reached 3190 replies...*

 

[northwichcat]

The Class 319s being cascaded to Northern Rail are 25 years old

The ones which have arrived are from the newest batch introduced in 1990. However, there are only 26 x 319s in that batch and Northern will introduce 20 x 319s this year. Therefore, it's very likely the next franchise will be introducing older 319s in 2017.
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Additionally the 333s are 23m units with wide(ish) bodies so would presumably have similar gauging issues as the 323s (I.e., would be fine on the South Manchester lines, the extra vehicle notwithstanding).

323s, 332s and 333s might not quite be 'go anywhere with wires' but Hunslet and CAF/Siemens made their trains a lot more versatile than the 165s and 166s which are restricted to a limited number of lines. 323s have worked on the Crewe-Liverpool line in the past.

 

[8A Rail]

319362 has been named Northern Powerhouse. Credit to Northern Rail's Facebook page

As for the name, politically motivated that is for sure and no co-incidence it was carried out in Manchester too. Talking about "sucking up" to the Chancellor!!

 

[AM9]

The ones which have arrived are from the newest batch introduced in 1990. However, there are only 26 x 319s in that batch and Northern will introduce 20 x 319s this year. Therefore, it's very likely the next franchise will be introducing older 319s in 2017.

The difference between 25 and 28 year-old trains is insignificant. They are all interchangeable and have been in continuous use and maintenance over that period.

323s, 332s and 333s might not quite be 'go anywhere with wires' but Hunslet and CAF/Siemens made their trains a lot more versatile than the 165s and 166s which are restricted to a limited number of lines. 323s have worked on the Crewe-Liverpool line in the past.

CAF and Siemens made trains to the specs that the customer wanted. The 165/166 series were deliberately made to the maximum GW loading gauge, - a rather short-sighted action for a couple of inches more room.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CAF and Siemens made trains to the specs that the customer wanted. The 165/166 series were deliberately made to the maximum GW loading gauge, - a rather short-sighted action for a couple of inches more room.

The passengers probably don't agree, given that it's only the width of these units that makes 3+2 seating tolerable in a 23m bodyshell.

 

[northwichcat]

CAF and Siemens made trains to the specs that the customer wanted. The 165/166 series were deliberately made to the maximum GW loading gauge, - a rather short-sighted action for a couple of inches more room.

Actually the 323, 332 and 333 carriages have even more room per carriage than the 165/6s. (The driving car of a 165 has an area of 64.38m2, while the driving car of a 323 has an area of 65.44m2.) The difference is apparently down to the type of connections between the carriages.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually the 323, 332 and 333 carriages have even more room per carriage than the 165/6s. (The driving car of a 165 has an area of 64.38m2, while the driving car of a 323 has an area of 65.44m2.) The difference is apparently down to the type of connections between the carriages.

That may be true, but isn't really relevant to the reason for making them *wider*, which is that 3+2 seating isn't quite so terrible as on narrower stock.

 

[northwichcat]

That may be true, but isn't really relevant to the reason for making them *wider*, which is that 3+2 seating isn't quite so terrible as on narrower stock.

But they aren't wider than other stock. They were built 9 ft 3 in wide, the same as the 319s (which this thread is supposed to be about.) The difference is they were the first (I think) trains to be built that wide and have carriages longer than 20m and were restricted to certain lines. When the 323s, 332s and 333s came along later they found a solution to allow them to have longer carriages with 3+2 seating without being restricted so much.
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The difference between 25 and 28 year-old trains is insignificant. They are all interchangeable and have been in continuous use and maintenance over that period.

I agree it's insignificant in this instance. The 319s built in 1990 look and feel the same age as the 319s built in 1987, a passenger wouldn't know which is newer if you didn't tell them. They may even have difficulty working out whether a 317/7 is newer than a 319/2 or not.

On the other hand the 323s built in 1993 are of a newer more modern design and passengers would think they are newer than the 319s.

 

[deltic08]

It seems longer than a month since the last 319 was delivered from Wolverton. Is one due soon?

 

[childwallblues]

The difference between 25 and 28 year-old trains is insignificant. They are all interchangeable and have been in continuous use and maintenance over that period.



CAF and Siemens made trains to the specs that the customer wanted. The 165/166 series were deliberately made to the maximum GW loading gauge, - a rather short-sighted action for a couple of inches more room.

Not necessarily short sighted. There will still be plenty of non-electrified lines around Bristol/Gloucester/Worcester for them.
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The ones which have arrived are from the newest batch introduced in 1990. However, there are only 26 x 319s in that batch and Northern will introduce 20 x 319s this year. Therefore, it's very likely the next franchise will be introducing older 319s in 2017.
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323s, 332s and 333s might not quite be 'go anywhere with wires' but Hunslet and CAF/Siemens made their trains a lot more versatile than the 165s and 166s which are restricted to a limited number of lines. 323s have worked on the Crewe-Liverpool line in the past.

West Midlands 323s did indeed work between Crewe and Liverpool 10-15 years ago on BHM-LIV services. There was one particular diagram which included a FOK-LIV-BHM journey.
Also I remember seeing a Longsight 323 on the railway bridge over Picton Road, Liverpool (reception siding into Downhills Depot). I think that there was a problem with the Longsight washer at the time.

 

[Llama]

Pretty sure First North Western 323s also made it to Birmingham on some of the peak services they ran (ie 1716 Piccadilly-BHM) following withdrawal of the 309s, although after the 309s the Birmingham reliefs were all booked 175s.

 

[theblackwatch]

It seems longer than a month since the last 319 was delivered from Wolverton. Is one due soon?

Two sets arrived at Allerton on March 6 (including 319366, still in FCC colours, which was promptly despatched to Preston for staff training). There are at least three sets at Wolverton at the moment.

 

[deltic08]

Two sets arrived at Allerton on March 6 (including 319366, still in FCC colours, which was promptly despatched to Preston for staff training). There are at least three sets at Wolverton at the moment.

Thank you. How many refurbed sets are now at Allerton from the 7th March then?

 

[Loop & Link]

[Deleted]

 

[DJH1971]

With 6 of them now at Allerton, I would have expected at least another diagram in place, given that Huyton to Wigan is now complete.

 

[AM9]

Not necessarily short sighted. There will still be plenty of non-electrified lines around Bristol/Gloucester/Worcester for them.

Well their non-standard size looks like it may impose some constraint on their deployment despite them having a good few years life left in them.
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But they aren't wider than other stock. They were built 9 ft 3 in wide, the same as the 319s (which this thread is supposed to be about.) The difference is they were the first (I think) trains to be built that wide and have carriages longer than 20m and were restricted to certain lines. When the 323s, 332s and 333s came along later they found a solution to allow them to have longer carriages with 3+2 seating without being restricted so much.

I was at BHI on Tuesday this week and had a closer look at a 323, (but the doors were closed so didn't board it). It seems that the width/overthrow issue has been dealt with by having the wheelbase similar to 20m coaches. This means that the centre overthrow on the inside of curves is no worse than 20m stock but the increased outside overthrow at the ends has to be accommodated by more severe tapering at the ends of the coach. It's just the same solution as has been incorporated in the SET design where the width is the same as a 23m coach but with more taper near the vestibules.

I agree it's insignificant in this instance. The 319s built in 1990 look and feel the same age as the 319s built in 1987, a passenger wouldn't know which is newer if you didn't tell them. They may even have difficulty working out whether a 317/7 is newer than a 319/2 or not.

On the other hand the 323s built in 1993 are of a newer more modern design and passengers would think they are newer than the 319s.

As regards the one I saw this week, it looked smart on the outside, (I think that the LM livery is quite attractive anyway), but inside the appearance was just as jaded as a 319, (of which I am very familiar with in all their different states). The seating looked like a toastrack, and the inside was dull. I can appreciate them being preferred to a Pacer, but that's as far as I would go. Most non-enthusiast passengers wouldn't notice the increased acceleration unless they were standing.

 

[Llama]

With 6 of them now at Allerton, I would have expected at least another diagram in place, given that Huyton to Wigan is now complete.

Crew training has to catch up first. There is a diagram change in early April.

 

[northwichcat]

Regarding the toilets which have been fitted to 319s not currently being cascaded to Northern. Do they have baby changing facilities? I noticed it's a requirement for the next Northern franchisee to provide those facilities on any train except if it's only used exclusively only on short distance Metro style routes.

 

[Techniquest]

You mean those red-doored cubicles they're putting into the 319s, in the non-motor centre coach? I *think* it had baby changing facilities, pretty sure it was there but I wasn't super awake at 0655 yesterday when I last used a 319!

As for Liverpool to Wigan, it's going over to 319s starting from May, is that correct or have I mis-read other posts?