Why are Train Tickets NON TRANSFERABLE?

[Eagle]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Single-...ollectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item256d7dbd45

Have reported this to eBay admin. (Wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the only one.)

 

[Nym]

Quite a few systems have problems with vagrants collecting used day travelcards/tickets and selling them on at night - some of them can become quite angry if you refuse to buy it off them.

They do indeed, this includes a number of G4S staff outside Piccadilly that work morning shifts in Bolton retaining tickets, not that there is any proof of this available as they operate outside of CCTV.

Have reported this to eBay admin. (Wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the only one.)

You're right, you're not...

 

[island]

Some sports tickets have printed on the back that it's an offence to expose the ticket in public.

Saying it's an offence doesn't make it one. richw correctly states that only football and olympic tickets have legal restrictions on resale in the UK.

 

[SS4]

You mean like this one on eBay?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Single-...ollectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item256d7dbd45

I noticed the lack of reservations first!

 

[Fare-Cop]

I noticed the lack of reservations first!

Apart from the fact that the sale on ebay is both contrary to ebay rules and National Railway Byelaws (illegal as also identified in ebay listing T&Cs), the first thing I looked at was the traveller/purchasers name, printed on the orange ticket border, bottom left.

 

[Eagle]

Apart from the fact that the sale on ebay is both contrary to ebay rules and National Railway Byelaws (as specified in ebay listing T&Cs), the first thing I looked at was the traveller/purchasers name, printed on the orange border, bottom left.

Although the purchaser uses the same name as his eBay username, so that's not exactly sleuth work.

The ToD reference number, however, will be more incriminating.

 

[AlterEgo]

Have reported this to eBay admin. (Wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the only one.)

He makes no mention of which trains the tickets are actually valid on either!

:roll:

 

[Fare-Cop]

Saying it's an offence doesn't make it one. richw correctly states that only football and olympic tickets have legal restrictions on resale in the UK.

Not true, ask those who have been convicted & fined by Magistrates for the breach of NR Byelaw 21.

We obviously cannot post names & dates on here though

 

[Nym]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-PART-RE...ollectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item4162fe289c

Report away peoples...

 

[Fare-Cop]

Although the purchaser uses the same name as his eBay username, so that's not exactly sleuth work.

The ToD reference number, however, will be more incriminating.

Agreed, but any potential buyer wouldn't necessarily recognise the risk they run in using them. A decent inspector would be looking there at some point, I don't think s/he would be thinking about ebay usernames.

Just think about a possible scenario if the ebay purchaser were clued up

Do you have your booking reference please? No, didn't keep it after I got the tickets, threw it away a bit back

OK, have you got your purchase card please? No, I've just been looking for it and I think I might have dropped it on the concourse

OK, What's your name, do you have any ID please?

 

[Anon Mouse]

"THERE WAS NO TICKET MAN EITHER WAY SO THESE ARE UNTOUCHED, BURTON ON TRENT TO WOLVERHAMPTON 2 PART RETURN DSB (DISABLED RAIL CARD FARE). START DATE 15 FEB. 2012, SEAT RESERVATION BOTH WAYS BURTON ON TRENT TO BIRMINGHAM"

Blatant out and out fraud, It amazes me that people think its perfectly acceptable to re-use tickets in this way as "there was no ticket man". No doubt its the same type of theif that wont buy a ticket because they don't expect to see a RPI or Conductor.

 

[lyesbkz]

"THERE WAS NO TICKET MAN EITHER WAY SO THESE ARE UNTOUCHED, BURTON ON TRENT TO WOLVERHAMPTON 2 PART RETURN DSB (DISABLED RAIL CARD FARE). START DATE 15 FEB. 2012, SEAT RESERVATION BOTH WAYS BURTON ON TRENT TO BIRMINGHAM"

How can there be a useful seat reservation if it's a walk-up ticket with a start date of Feb 15th?

 

[Anon Mouse]

How can there be a useful seat reservation if it's a walk-up ticket with a start date of Feb 15th?

Knowing some passengers I would not be surprised if they found that seat and tried to evict a lawfully travelling passenger!

 

[island]

Not true, ask those who have been convicted & fined by Magistrates for the breach of NR Byelaw 21.

We obviously cannot post names & dates on here though

Quite right. The post I quoted referred to sports tickets however, and my reply was confined to that.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Quite right. The post I quoted referred to sports tickets however, and my reply was confined to that.

My apolgy, I hadn't recognised that you were referring ONLY to sports tickets.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Have reported this to eBay admin. (Wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the only one.)

Did you notice the other violation of e-Bay policy? He listed them in the collectibles section for used tickets. ( Or maybe he was being crafty and hoped they would slip under the radar by doing that! ).

Use of the wrong category is against e-Bay rules as well as selling a prohibited item...

 

[Eagle]

Did you notice the other violation of e-Bay policy? He listed them in the collectibles section for used tickets. ( Or maybe he was being crafty and hoped they would slip under the radar by doing that! ).

Well obviously there is no eBay section for unused tickets...

I personally think that the seller doesn't know s/he's doing something illegal, but it is a strict liability offence and a criminal record is looming if s/he is tracked down.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

True; and you'd think that the fact the seller couldn't find an unused tickets section might have given them a big clue since the e-Bay categories are quite comprehensive aren't they?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

An Exception:-
East Coast have a 'Rewards' scheme which offers regular passengers 'points' for each purchase which can be transferred into 'free' tickets for Return journeys on their own services only (in 1st or Std class accom.).

The scheme has its own Conditions, and Byelaw 21 allows that certain Tickets may carry their own Conditions which 'specifically permit such a transfer'.

But to examine East Coast's 'own Conditions', we have a little hurdle to cross:
As I have remarked previously, I appear to be prevented from quoting EC's Conditions for their 'Rewards' scheme, as Condition 7.2 of that scheme states that

None of the Material relating to the Scheme may be reproduced or redistributed without our prior written permission

and so by merely copying that prohibition without the Company's prior written permission, I could be said to have violated it.

Perhaps after that Condition of prohibition, I may be expected not to proceed to quote any more from their scheme's Conditions, such as to quote Condition 7.1.1 "not use the scheme for any unlawful . . . . purpose, including . . . attempting to sell or transfer Rewards to another person" and nor would I proceed to quote Condition 6.1.4 which is relevant to this thread
"6.1.4 Special rules for East Coast Free ticket redemptions: . . .
b. This benefit is transferable and can be booked for someone else. . . . .
h. Free tickets must not be offered for sale or exchange in any way for gain including utilisation in lotteries, raffles or any other means as a prize or part therof. . . . .
i. Free tickets cannot be resold."
because to do so would be a violation of Condition 7.2 again, and that would be an unreasonable action even in the course of informing their passengers and in informing students of Railway Law and Regulations on this forum. It would be a violation for which no penalty other than cessation of 'membership' of their scheme appears to exist.

In summary, 7.1.1 and 6.1.4.b appear to contradict unless we construe them to permit one person's points to be exchangeable for a ticket for another person, and that 6.1.4.h . permits tickets for one person (or persons) to be transferred to another person (or persons).
(While they may be 'free' tickets, a First Class Kings Cross to Aberdeen Return for two is not of insignificant value).

[Apologies to DOR Ltd t/a ECML Co for quoting some of your Company's Conditions for your passenger's conveyance and ticket restrictions and for any loss or damage to the Company accruing from those quotations including the loss incurred by redistributing the prohibition against the redistribution of the Company's prohibition to any person or persons who may benefit from being aware of your Company's prohibition and also to any persons who may not benefit from that awareness and similar apologies for any possible interpretation of those quotations which readers might have construed suggesting that the Company might have obfuscated or made less than transparent its policies towards its customers.]

 

[dggar]

Apart from the fact that the sale on ebay is both contrary to ebay rules and National Railway Byelaws (illegal as also identified in ebay listing T&Cs), the first thing I looked at was the traveller/purchasers name, printed on the orange ticket border, bottom left.

Point of information please:-

I normal purchase tickets on line and my name appears on the tickets.
(I frequently buy tickets for my daughter as she is not old enough to have a credit card)
If I had purchased the ticket at a booking office (using either cash or a credit card) does my name get printed on the ticket.
i.e. are booking staff supposed to ask who the ticket is for.

 

[Eagle]

If I had purchased the ticket at a booking office (using either cash or a credit card) does my name get printed on the ticket.

Nope. (Well, except my LM Great Escape ticket, where my name had to be entered manually, even though I used a card.)

The name on the ticket is that of the cardholder, not the passenger, though; if you buy tickets for many people in one transaction (which is allowable, even if the Byelaws seem to disallow it as it could be construed as transferring tickets) then they will all have the same name on them.

 

[dvboy]

I don't understand why the name needs to appear on the ticket at all.

What if a colleague purchases your tickets for business travel?

 

[yorkie]

The name of the person printed on the ticket, when bought online, is the name of the purchaser. I believe it is the name of the online account holder (this was certainly the case when I used Thetrainline sites a few years ago!) and not the card holder.

Someone can buy tickets for anyone, and any number of people (subject to limits, such as e.g. East Coast 9 persons per booking, x bookings per transaction, 4(?) transactions per day, and so on....), in which case the purchasers name may be printed on a lot of tickets, but that means nothing other than who bought the tickets.

 

[tony_mac]

Rover and Ranger tickets are slightly different, and may have the passenger's name printed on them (I assume this includes the Great Escape tickets).

I see ticket blanks on ebay as well, isn't that just asking for trouble?

 

[yorkie]

Rover and Ranger tickets are slightly different, and may have the passenger's name printed on them (I assume this includes the Great Escape tickets).

Yes, that is true. I was Mr Cc last Saturday, though most people were a variation of Mr Xx (some with more x's than others).

 

[mralexn]

They do indeed, this includes a number of G4S staff outside Piccadilly that work morning shifts in Bolton retaining tickets, not that there is any proof of this available as they operate outside of CCTV.



You're right, you're not...

The thing is , the person selling those tickets probably has no idea what he / she is doing is illegal, When you buy AP tickets it should be made clear when you buy them that that are NON transferable and you can not sell them on.

I mean seriously, Would you average Jo public know about this being highly illegal? I think not, unless they are just incredibly stupid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-PART-RE...ollectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item4162fe289c

Report away peoples...

It is people like this, that should be prosecuted!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed, but any potential buyer wouldn't necessarily recognise the risk they run in using them. A decent inspector would be looking there at some point, I don't think s/he would be thinking about ebay usernames.

Just think about a possible scenario if the ebay purchaser were clued up

Do you have your booking reference please? No, didn't keep it after I got the tickets, threw it away a bit back

OK, have you got your purchase card please? No, I've just been looking for it and I think I might have dropped it on the concourse

OK, What's your name, do you have any ID please?

Yes but what is the likelyhood of that happening,
also, what happens if a family member / friend bought the ticket for you online and accidentally used their name?

 

[Eagle]

When you buy AP tickets it should be made clear when you buy them that that are NON transferable and you can not sell them on.

It's written very clearly in the terms and conditions that you have to click through when making an online purchase.

 

[mralexn]

It's written very clearly in the terms and conditions that you have to click through when making an online purchase.

I mean more, when buying at a station,
And does do most people read all the Terms and Conditions, or just click the Yes i agree box without glancing at it.

It would be good to see it be common knowledge, if you get what I mean, ie,

When you buy a ticket from a ticket office, you should be told up front, you can not sell this ticket on, or sell it on eBay etc. Maybe posters and better advertising of this T+C would help, as i am very sure the majority of people are not away, they dont even know the difference between their seat reservation and their ticket :P

 

[ainsworth74]

And does do most people read all the Terms and Conditions, or just click the Yes i agree box without glancing at it.

Ignorantia juris non excusat or put simply (and in English ) ignorance does not excuse you from it. People agreed to the T&Cs and therefore are reasonably expected to have read them, just because people haven't does not excuse them from being liable.

 

[tony_mac]

It's written very clearly in the terms and conditions that you have to click through when making an online purchase.

Where does it clearly say that you cannot buy a ticket for yourself and then sell it to someone else?

And I have just found that I am breaching their site regulations by using it to look up train times and routeings!

Ignorantia juris non excusat or put simply (and in English ) ignorance does not excuse you from it. People agreed to the T&Cs and therefore are reasonably expected to have read them, just because people haven't does not excuse them from being liable.

It's not as simple as that, though, is it?

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