The state of Northerns stock

[sprinterguy]

What would be a good EMU for the Chiltern line?

I thought the 170 and 168 (168/1 and 168/2) were the same, apart from how long the trains are

Yes, 168s and 170s are the same train: Even the 168/0s only differ slightly.

Personally I'd reckon that it would be possible, with careful time management of electrification projects and fleet renewals, to have a continuous production run of five carriage, 25kV AC 444-alikes (Or the 2020 equivalent) passed for 110mph operation that would cover:
Transpennine North electric and Manchester - Scotland services
Replacement rolling stock for the Liverpool Street - Norwich services
EMUs for a potential Aberdeen electrification
Chiltern Main line electrification

And if it wasn't currently undergoing improvements to allow 125mph running I would suggest the Midland Main line as well, with enough units ordered to allow ten carriage operation on the MML and Norwich routes.

 

[AlanFry1]

Yes, 168s and 170s are the same train: Even the 168/0s only differ slightly.

Personally I'd reckon that it would be possible, with careful time management of electrification projects and fleet renewals, to have a continuous production run of five carriage, 25kV AC 444-alikes (Or the 2020 equivalent) passed for 110mph operation that would cover:
Transpennine North electric and Manchester - Scotland services
Replacement rolling stock for the Liverpool Street - Norwich services
EMUs for a potential Aberdeen electrification
Chiltern Main line electrification

And if it wasn't currently undergoing improvements to allow 125mph running I would suggest the Midland Main line as well, with enough units ordered to allow ten carriage operation on the MML and Norwich routes.

They would then have to change the order for TPE from Class 350 to Class 381 (A 25Kv AC 5 car version of the 444, hopefully built in the UK)

If it did happen, then a lot of DMUs (158/168/170) that will become avalible, maybe at least some will move to Northern

For Example, 16 Class 168 and 5 Class 67/26 Mark 3/5 Mark 3 DVT would be avalible from Chiltern and 15 Class 90/120 Mark 3/15 Mark 3 DVT from GA. I think the Scotrail 158/170s will stay with them

For the MML, if there need electric trains then it would be IEP or Class 390

 

[sprinterguy]

They would then have to change the order for TPE from Class 350 to Class 381 (A 25Kv AC 5 car version of the 444, hopefully built in the UK)

The TPE 350/4s are only an interim measure that have been tagged onto the end of the London Midland order for 350s in order to save time specifying and building a separate train type. It is expected that in the future the Manchester to Scotland services will receive more route specific rolling stock: If the route gets rolled into the West Coast franchise, then perhaps some form of Pendolino, if it stays as part of Transpennine Express (if TPE continues to exist) then probably whatever new train type is eventually ordered for Transpennine North electrification (Which might not happen immediately if more hand-me-down rolling stock is sourced to run it): In the case of my example, this would be the AC electric 444s.
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For Example, 16 Class 168 and 5 Class 67/26 Mark 3/5 Mark 3 DVT would be avalible from Chiltern and 15 Class 90/120 Mark 3/15 Mark 3 DVT from GA. I think the Scotrail 158/170s will stay with them

Chiltern have 19 class 168s. I would think that the mark 3s used by Chiltern and Greater Anglia would be withdrawn from service, rather than finding use elsewhere.

 

[AlanFry1]

The TPE 350/4s are only an interim measure that have been tagged onto the end of the London Midland order for 350s in order to save time specifying and building a separate train type. It is expected that in the future the Manchester to Scotland services will receive more route specific rolling stock: If the route gets rolled into the West Coast franchise, then perhaps some form of Pendolino, if it stays as part of Transpennine Express (if TPE continues to exist) then probably whatever new train type is eventually ordered for Transpennine North electrification (Which might not happen immediately if more hand-me-down rolling stock is sourced to run it): In the case of my example, this would be the AC electric 444s.
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Chiltern have 19 class 168s. I would think that the mark 3s used by Chiltern and Greater Anglia would be withdrawn from service, rather than finding use elsewhere.

I think that the North TransPennine and South TransPennine should be moved to Northern and the Transpennine North West moved to the West Coast TOC (which would need to order more Class 390 for the ex-Transpennine North West services)

The Mark 3s on the HST might be used until 2020, so it would be a good idea to move GA and Chiltern Mark 3s to make HST sets longer

 

[sprinterguy]

I think that the North TransPennine and South TransPennine should be moved to Northern and the Transpennine North West moved to the West Coast TOC (which would need to order more Class 390 for the ex-Transpennine North West services)

Steering this thread back to Northern territory, I agree that Transpennine North should be amalgamated with the Northern franchise, as following electrification TPE North and South will consist of two different types of service: One electric and the other diesel (Depending how many of the branches of TPE North are electrified). I'd group Transpennine South with East Midlands Trains, keep all the 185s within the Northern franchise for the time being which would allow a number of additional 158s to be cascaded to EMT to operate Transpennine South, in four carriage formation hopefully.

Manchester to Scotland would definitely sit better as part of the West Coast franchise. The rest of the TPE North West network (Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere) would sit best with Northern: Blackpool services that are currently worked by TPE will be operated by Northern 319s in the future (I presume?), Barrow services could remain worked by 185s, and if the Windermere branch is reduced to being little more than a shuttle from Oxenholme post-North West electrification then a 156 (Perhaps a pair on busy summer Saturdays, etc) would suffice.

 

[AlanFry1]

Steering this thread back to Northern territory, I agree that Transpennine North should be amalgamated with the Northern franchise, as following electrification TPE North and South will consist of two different types of service: One electric and the other diesel (Depending how many of the branches of TPE North are electrified). I'd group Transpennine South with East Midlands Trains, keep all the 185s within the Northern franchise for the time being which would allow a number of additional 158s to be cascaded to EMT to operate Transpennine South, in four carriage formation hopefully.

Manchester to Scotland would definitely sit better as part of the West Coast franchise. The rest of the TPE North West network (Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere) would sit best with Northern: Blackpool services that are currently worked by TPE will be operated by Northern 319s in the future (I presume?), Barrow services could remain worked by 185s, and if the Windermere branch is reduced to being little more than a shuttle from Oxenholme post-North West electrification then a 156 (Perhaps a pair on busy summer Saturdays, etc) would suffice.

In that case Northern will have to order more Class 185 so that they can tranfer TPE South and some class 158 to EMT

As for TPE North West, then they should order more Class 390s for eletric routes and if there are any diesel routes maybe they could take on the Class 220/221 fleet from XC, which will in turn gain the HST fleet from FGW once IEP/Class 390s arrive

 

[tbtc]

In that case Northern will have to order more Class 185

How? They cannot be built (hence the lack of a fourth coach in them) - they don't conform to current standards

 

[AlanFry1]

How? They cannot be built (hence the lack of a fourth coach in them) - they don't conform to current standards

What do you mean?

 

[Lampshade]

What do you mean?

The 185 isn't in production anymore, the jigs have most likely been broken up and the engines don't conform to new legislation.

 

[Nym]

What do you mean?

Can... Not... Build... Any... More... 185s... Production... Line... Long... Gone...

Also...

Does not meet the new emissions standards for Rail Vehicles!

 

[sprinterguy]

In that case Northern will have to order more Class 185 so that they can tranfer TPE South and some class 158 to EMT

I was thinking post-Transpennine electrification principally when a number of 185s could be moved onto other routes in Northerns' remit, but even before then by removing 185s from South TPE for use on, say, Caldervale services then that would allow some 158s to be released to EMT. Probably not enough to allow a great deal of four carriage operation mind, but you would hope that there would be some economies of scale from EMT operating a larger fleet of 158s covering both South TPE and Liverpool to Norwich.

 

[tbtc]

I was thinking post-Transpennine electrification principally when a number of 185s could be moved onto other routes in Northerns' remit, but even before then by removing 185s from South TPE for use on, say, Caldervale services then that would allow some 158s to be released to EMT. Probably not enough to allow a great deal of four carriage operation mind, but you would hope that there would be some economies of scale from EMT operating a larger fleet of 158s covering both South TPE and Liverpool to Norwich.

I agree with that - putting three coach 185s on Caldervale to replace two coach 158s would be a benefit to Bradford/ Halifax/ Rochdale etc, then use the 158s (with some cascaded Scottish ones?) to make the Manchester - Cleethorpes service 158 run (but maybe two coaches west of Doncaster, or with a portion splitting for Hull?). Something like that anyhow...

 

[AlanFry1]

The 185 isn't in production anymore, the jigs have most likely been broken up and the engines don't conform to new legislation.

Can they not build a new version of the 185?

 

[Nym]

Bear in mind it's likely that if the Cleethorpes - Manchester service remains in it's current path it will be diverted away from Manchester Airport to serve at the 2nd CLC Semi Fast opersite the EMT Liverpool - Norwich service, so EMT is a logical home for the service in even more respects as it shares the route all the way to Sheffeild.

The redeployment of class 185 units is rather complicated and if you go back through my posts on the actual threads on the matter, I did come up with a kind of reasonable solution, but at the moment, depending on the comitted electrification plans, I might end up changing my mind to actually remove pacers from the equation by minimisation of Diesel Under Wires from Northern, requiring all 86 Class 319 units, but potentially resulting in pacer removal, on the back of a fag packet, it needed TPE N Electrification to Hull and via Castleford to York. In addition to the core services. Deploying them mainly on Calder Vale, Cleethorpes (Keeping them with Northern Citylink), Buxton, Southport and somewhere else. But like I said, if we need to prioritise pacer removal, a lot of direct journies might be lost as a result.

 

[AlanFry1]

Bear in mind it's likely that if the Cleethorpes - Manchester service remains in it's current path it will be diverted away from Manchester Airport to serve at the 2nd CLC Semi Fast opersite the EMT Liverpool - Norwich service, so EMT is a logical home for the service in even more respects as it shares the route all the way to Sheffeild.

The redeployment of class 185 units is rather complicated and if you go back through my posts on the actual threads on the matter, I did come up with a kind of reasonable solution, but at the moment, depending on the comitted electrification plans, I might end up changing my mind to actually remove pacers from the equation by minimisation of Diesel Under Wires from Northern, requiring all 86 Class 319 units, but potentially resulting in pacer removal, on the back of a fag packet, it needed TPE N Electrification to Hull and via Castleford to York. In addition to the core services. Deploying them mainly on Calder Vale, Cleethorpes (Keeping them with Northern Citylink), Buxton, Southport and somewhere else. But like I said, if we need to prioritise pacer removal, a lot of direct journies might be lost as a result.

In that case need would need to order Class 172s to replace the Pacers in Northern and new EMUs for FGW (to compensate the fact they will not be getting 319s)

 

[Nym]

Why would I need 172s to replace pacers with Northern, actually go look at the previously proposed numbers before you refute a sernario that I come up with.

 

[AlanFry1]

Why would I need 172s to replace pacers with Northern, actually go look at the previously proposed numbers before you refute a sernario that I come up with.

Yes, but you did suggest that if we prioritised withdrawing the pacers there would be problems

 

[Nym]

Only with the loss of direct through services from some destinations where currently, through services exist for the convenience of the few.

 

[AlanFry1]

Only with the loss of direct through services from some destinations where currently, through services exist for the convenience of the few.

Which is why I am making those suggestions

 

[pemma]

I was on one of the 142s that returned from FGW earlier and it is a much higher standard of refresh compared to the Northern one, despite FGW knowing they only had them on a short term deal. Although, saying that I'm not keen on the pink door controls and handles.
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I'm pretty certain that it would have been possible to have refurbished to the same standartd as the ATW 150's but without tables and with 3+2 seating.

That's exactly what happened to the FNW 150s. They have the same type of seats as the ATW 150s but lack the arm rests, tables and have more seats squashed in

I think you should read what you have written. You basically stated that even though northern have only had the ex LM 150's for 3-4 months they should all have been refurbished by now.

My exact words from two different posts:

The ex-ATN 150s which hadn't been touched internally since BR days, have only been given a refresh not a full refurbishment. The ex-LM 150s appear to be going down the same route.

I was on an ex-LM 150 on Friday that had very shabby seat covers. It was in a de-branded Network West Midlands livery with a Northern vinyl stuck over the top.

You've somehow intrepreted that to make up a misleading quote.

The diesels (bar 158s) could be replaced by 170s and 172s

No they couldn't. We don't need diesel stock, we need more electric stock. And we especially don't need Bombardier Stock.

Get real. If you don't order new DMUs and wait for enough wires to be put up before replacing DMUs the Pacers will be in service until 2030 and the 150s in service until 2040.

 

[Crossover]

Very briefly, I was on a number of Northern trains on Thursday as part of their £10 offer.

Went on a range of units from 142's to 158's, as well as a couple of electrics.

Both 323's I was on were refurbished ones, which look a lot better.

I think the worst units I was on cleanliness wise were a 155 (which just looked a bit depressing generally) and a 142 which had something spilt in the doorway.

The 144's I travelled on looked pretty good and even in the tunnels the lighting was more than sufficient to prevent the carriage becoming dingy. There is a bit of muck accumulating round where the seats meet the floor, but I don't think that is anything out of the ordinary as I can imagine they are a pain to clean in such detail. The guard on one of the 144's was going round collecting newspapers up, to help keep the train looking tidy.

Before anyone says, I have travelled with numerous other TOC's lately and I am, for some reason, getting to like Northern a little more each time I use them, even the Pacers hock:
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The 323s were looking tired with a 'bubbling up' lino floor and threadbare upholstery. However at least 323234 has been refreshed with new seat covers, re-padded seats and a new floor.....

There are quite a few done now. I was on a couple as I mentioned above, one of which was 323 226 (the other escapes me at the moment but was 323 23x) and they had also been done

....the result is rather good (better than some new trains actually), although some seat handles are rather... loose.

 

[sprinterguy]

According to this post (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=62003), the ex-Northern Spirit 142s have started to receive an interior refresh hock:

New seat covers and flooring and presumably an internal repaint

It's a shame that that's all that they're doing, as the 2+2 Northern Spirit seats, while being the most comfortable type of seating fitted to the Northern 142s, have never been particularly durable or resistant to damage, particularly the headrests which always seem quite flaccid and flimsy. It's a shame that the Northern 142s haven't been given a refurb the same as the ATW Pacers, or, come to think of it, the 144s.

 

[pemma]

A Northern 142 I was on a few days ago had newspapers from the previous week still lying around.

 

[sprinterguy]

A Northern 142 I was on a few days ago had newspapers from the previous week still lying around.

Was that on the east side or west side?

While I am sure that the lovely boys and girls of Newton Heath depot put in their best efforts into the maintenance of their home fleet (And please don't bite my head off for this post, I mean no ill will towards NH and am trying to take a balanced view), it does seem to me that Northerns' units used on the "west side" and maintained by NH generally seem a bit more uncared for than those maintained at the two depots on the "east side." Though of course, every depot has its' good and bad examples: I mean, the Neville Hill allocated 158s are generally a bit scruffy.

Perhaps it is just the hand they have been dealt: I don't know how the comparative fleet sizes allocated to Newton Heath and Neville Hill measure up, but I know that Newton Heath maintains a sizeable number of trains and the pressures of looking after such a varied range of different train types must be pretty demanding. Heaton is always going to have the upper hand in terms of traincare as they have a much smaller train fleet to look after and only two different types of train, so it's only really fair to make comparisons between the two large depots in the Northern remit: Newton Heath and Neville Hill.

It will be interesting to see if internal cleanliness standards change at all when the 156s are moved to Allerton, reducing the pressure somewhat on Newton Heaths' workload and providing a dedicated depot focusing on maintaining only one train class.

 

[pemma]

Was that on the east side or west side?

It was 142001 and it was on the 12:07 Chester-Manchester service on Tuesday.

 

[AlanFry1]

Having read this thread, I feel that Northern should order more DMUs and EMUs to replace their fleet, it is one of the oldest in the uk (by average age), they should start with the ditching the pacers

 

[pemma]

Having read this thread, I feel that Northern should order more DMUs and EMUs to replace their fleet, it is one of the oldest in the uk (by average age), they should start with the ditching the pacers

Pacer replacement units should have been ordered in 2004 when the Northern franchise started. Pacers don't work well on crowded commuter trains, having small carriages and struggling massively with acceleration when they have a lot of people standing and they aren't suited to longer distance services, so there's very few routes Northern can use them on that they are suitable for.

 

[Yew]

Northerns routes don't need 3+2 seating and table less refurbishments for the most part though. They need 2+2 and tables. Maybe a few in 3+2 for some suburban routes.

 

[AlanFry1]

Pacer replacement units should have been ordered in 2004 when the Northern franchise started. Pacers don't work well on crowded commuter trains, having small carriages and struggling massively with acceleration when they have a lot of people standing and they aren't suited to longer distance services, so there's very few routes Northern can use them on that they are suitable for.

Should it be new EMUs/DMUs or current EMUs/DMUs that should replace them?

 

[pemma]

Should it be new EMUs/DMUs or current EMUs/DMUs that should replace them?

When the 319s finally arrive they will be needed for extra capacity. It will only be after North TPE electrification that DMUs can start being withdrawn as a result of extra EMUs being introduced and even then it'll only be 20-30 DMUs that could be withdrawn as a result of electrification i.e. the 144s can be replaced by new/cascaded EMUs but new DMUs will be needed to replace the 142s.

If electrification projects continue after North TPE then the 150s can be replaced directly/indirectly by new/cascaded EMUs.