The state of Northerns stock

[driver9000]

I presume the response to this is that Northern's pockets were empty because the franchise was let in the wrong way. I don't buy this argument at all. I believe that every TOC has an amount of money to spend and has to decide how to spend it. Northern have made a conscious decision not to invest much in their fleet, and by doing so have ended up with the tattiest fleet in the country. By doing so they have let down not only their customers but also the thousands of professional, conscientious and hard working staff who despite this defend their company on this forum.

I hope some of what's been posted on here is fed back to Northern's management.

Regardless of you buying the argument of not, it is the situation that exists. How hard is the concept of no investment to grasp? Northern had no obligation do anything to the fleet but instead they made the conscious decision to do something to make the appearance a little better. The comparison with other TOCs is unfair as their franchises included refurbishments but Northern didn't, if the people of the north have been let down it is by whoever wrote the ludicrous franchise parameters. Northern could, and should improve the appearance of the fleet but to cry foul over something they were never commited to isn't fair on the company. The refrshed interiors and expanded fleet are all above Northerns franchise commitments and they should be applauded for the work they have done because they weren't easy to get.

 

[YorkshireBear]

333s are very intensively used, personally i dont think it shows that much, they are still fantastic to be in and in my humble opinion the best stock northern has to offer.
I imagine refurbing a EMU is a tad easier because they have a definite longer life cycle.

Anyone thought that maybe the 150s and 156s are being held off on deep internal refurb until the 2020 DDA deadline upgrades are sorted out.

 

[AlanFry1]

333s are very intensively used, personally i dont think it shows that much, they are still fantastic to be in and in my humble opinion the best stock northern has to offer.
I imagine refurbing a EMU is a tad easier because they have a definite longer life cycle.

Anyone thought that maybe the 150s and 156s are being held off on deep internal refurb until the 2020 DDA deadline upgrades are sorted out.

Imagine if the DfT had the sense to order more new trains for Northern?

 

[northwichcat]

The comparison with other TOCs is unfair as their franchises included refurbishments but Northern didn't.

Operators that have been required to do refurbishment work have quite often gone over and above what was expected.

EMT were only required to refurbish trains used on Liverpool-Norwich. They refurbished all their 158s fully and have refreshed most of their other Sprinters. If that had been Northern they probably would have split the 158s in to two pools and fully refurbished one pool for Liverpool-Norwich and refreshed the 158s in the other pool.

FGW may have been required to refurbish the HSTs but they also refreshed 7 of the 142s despite only subleasing them for a couple of years. What did Northern do with the 180s? Put some Northern branding on them and then didn't even bother cleaning them properly. Apparently Northern got charged the cost of a full deep clean on all the 180s they took on when they returned them due to them not being in a satisfactory condition when returned.
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Imagine if the DfT had the sense to order more new trains for Northern?

What do you mean about more new trains? The only new orders proposed for Northern were cancelled in favour of sending cascaded 319s up instead.

 

[PR1Berske]

Operators that have been required to do refurbishment work have quite often gone over and above what was expected.

EMT were only required to refurbish trains used on Liverpool-Norwich. They refurbished all their 158s fully and have refreshed most of their other Sprinters. If that had been Northern they probably would have split the 158s in to two pools and fully refurbished one pool for Liverpool-Norwich and refreshed the 158s in the other pool.

FGW may have been required to refurbish the HSTs but they also refreshed 7 of the 142s despite only subleasing them for a couple of years. What did Northern do with the 180s? Put some Northern branding on them and then didn't even bother cleaning them properly. Apparently Northern got charged the cost of a full deep clean on all the 180s they took on when they returned them due to them not being in a satisfactory condition when returned.
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What do you mean about more new trains? The only new orders proposed for Northern were cancelled in favour of sending cascaded 319s up instead.

At last, someone else on my side

The orchestrated outrage from Northern staff here ignores the stark reality of life as a Northern customer. You're right to show in such a clear way the difference between other companies and Northern, who, I might add, are not exactly running at a massive loss.

 

[AlanFry1]

What do you mean about more new trains? The only new orders proposed for Northern were cancelled in favour of sending cascaded 319s up instead.

I meant if the DfT sepnd money on getting new 170s and 172s to replace the 142/144//150/153/155/156 fleet, not only if increase capacity (if they ordered more trains than they are replacing), it would create/add jobs into the economy

 

[driver9000]

Operators that have been required to do refurbishment work have quite often gone over and above what was expected.

You can say the same about Northern who were required to do nothing.

 

[David]

The 15x fleet doesn't need replacing though, because with a decent refurbishment, they will be good for another 15 years or so. The 153s can either be added to the the rest of the 15x to create a few 3 car sets or reformed back to 155s.

Once the MML and TPE North routes are wired, that increases the BCR of further infill electrification, so the likes of Sheffield - Doncaster - Hull, York - Hull, Selby - Doncaster can get wired and go over to full EMU workings, and so displace various 15x units which are then cascaded down to replace Pacers.

 

[driver9000]

The orchestrated outrage from Northern staff here ignores the stark reality of life as a Northern customer. You're right to show in such a clear way the difference between other companies and Northern, who, I might add, are not exactly running at a massive loss.

No one is ignoring the "stark reality" - Northern staff also travel on the same trains you do. How many times have you raised your complaints with Northern or taken it further to Passenger focus? Yes the trains could be improved by deep cleaning them but it isn't endemic across the fleet - the most down at heel ones I can think of are the former ATN 142s and 156s. There isn't going to be fleet refurbishments like EMT et al had because simply there is no requirement to do so and with 18 months or so left on the franchise you aren't likely to see major refurbishments until after September 2013. In the mean time if you are so unhappy with the service provided why not consider alternative means of transport? I know as enthusiasts and in some cases railway staff we should be promoting rail travel but if you are so against Northern Rail why keep on travelling with them?

 

[WestCoast]

The orchestrated outrage from Northern staff here ignores the stark reality of life as a Northern customer. You're right to show in such a clear way the difference between other companies and Northern, who, I might add, are not exactly running at a massive loss.

I use Northern services every day I reckon you're quite dramatic about this. Some of Northern's fleet is a little tatty, but with the Pacers it's a case of 'polishing a turd'. A regional train is there to take you with the minimum of fuss from A to B on a short to medium haul journey. You shouldn't expect a sparkling carriage, especially not with thousands of people trampling in and out each day. Expectations shouldn't be more than a well used bus. Honestly, I reckon some people have become so obsessed with "branding and presentation" they've lost sight of what the railways are actually there to do. The focus should be on providing convenient and effective services, not about fancy branding and marketing. Northern don't bother with many of these gimmicks and instead just run the service!

Northern has its shortcomings in the fleet, but trust me it has many positives to make up for that. The commuter TOCs in the South East might have shiny trains (not always I might add - the First Capital Connect 319s are hardly palaces), but they often lack in areas of customer service where even seeing a member of a staff on the train is a challenge. In many cases, they are very inflexible in their attitude compared to Northern and don't offer a better passenger, sorry customer, experience even with tidier trains.

 

[island]

In my view, new seating for some of the Pacers should be priority (assuming that they're probably going to be with us for a while anyway). Most of the sprinters could probably get away with a decent refresh IMO - although the 158 toilets need doing properly.

It's my understanding that Pacers are defunct in 7 years anyway due to failing accessibility standards. Replacing the seats wouldn't be a good use of resources I think.

 

[yorksrob]

It's my understanding that Pacers are defunct in 7 years anyway due to failing accessibility standards. Replacing the seats wouldn't be a good use of resources I think.

That depends. If there aren't enough new trains forthcoming, I'm sure they'll find a way to put the deadline back.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's my understanding that Pacers are defunct in 7 years anyway due to failing accessibility standards. Replacing the seats wouldn't be a good use of resources I think.

It probably would have been most sensible if Northern had embarked on a fleet wide refurbishment of the 142s for completion in about 2010 that would have given all the Northern operated examples one standard, reasonable quality interior with a reasonable length of life before the units are withdrawn, while they are all operated under a single operator. But of course the Northern franchise was let on a no frills, lowest cost basis, and weren't there initially big plans for some new, cheap Chinese DMUs to replace the Pacers early on in the franchise?

 

[BR Blue]

Northern have had a raw deal when it comes to rolling stock. The national dmu shortage means the large Pacer fleet,that Northern have, will just have to go on toiling away.

 

[Wath Yard]

Of course an MD should respond to customer feedback... customers are the ONLY reason he/she makes any revenue! Maybe you think the TOCs should just play train sets and run around all day empty... the trains wouldn't get dirty and there would be no inconvenient customers around to spoil the operation...

I differentiate between busy and overcrowded - can't you? Are you trying to tell us that Manchester, Leeds & Liverpool are provincial towns and not major cities?

Where do you get 40 minute VT turnaround from.... at Euston it is often 15 minutes or less.. they still get the train out on time and have usually managed to clean it.

I think we should differentiate between an untidy train and a dirty one... I'm not talking about leftover newspapers or paper cups, during the course of a day these do get left - it's ingrained dirt that has clearly been left to build up over generations that gets me.

I wonder why the MD didn't reply to you. Perhaps it is because your letter was similar to the above.

The only thing I am going to respond to directly is, if Virgin have 15 minute turnrounds it is because of their woeful performance. You need to check the unit diagrams to understand what the turnrounds are. They are publically available.

 

[507 001]

I agree that the 150s could have been refurbished to a higher standard but in my opinion the higher standard would have been like the ATW 150s, which would have meant less seats and the North West couldn't afford to reduce seats on trains by that level.

I'm pretty certain that it would have been possible to have refurbished to the same standartd as the ATW 150's but without tables and with 3+2 seating. But by a "higher standard" I was actually referring to something akin to a ME 507/8 or SWT 455.

No I'm not saying that there must be a little voice in your head is telling you that I said that. When I mentioned the LM stock you claimed I was saying that they all should have been refurbished when I said nothing of the sort.

I think you should read what you have written. You basically stated that even though northern have only had the ex LM 150's for 3-4 months they should all have been refurbished by now.

Would you care to state what they are? In my opinion the 142s are the worse trains in operation and Northern are one of the two operators that use them. The other operator- ATW restricts them more to shorter services and has fitted them with 2+2 seating.

Scotrail 156's (the SPT ones) & FCC 319's.

The diesels (bar 158s) could be replaced by 170s and 172s

No they couldn't. We don't need diesel stock, we need more electric stock. And we especially don't need Bombardier Stock.

That can be solved in both cases with refurbishment

Make up your mind? Do you want new stock or refurbished stock?

 

[AlanFry1]

No they couldn't. We don't need diesel stock, we need more electric stock. And we especially don't need Bombardier Stock.

Make up your mind? Do you want new stock or refurbished stock?

Why don't you want Bombardier stock

Unless there a huge electrifcation of the Northern network, we would need more DMUs

I have only suggested Bombarider stock becuase they are built in the UK

I would buy new trains for pre-1990s stock and refurbish the post 1990 stock if needed
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I think Northern buy new stock and withdraw the pacers and the older Sprinters and trasfer the rest to other TOCs

 

[ukrob]

150-156 is pre 1990 and does not need replacing.

 

[AlanFry1]

150-156 is pre 1990 and does not need replacing.

Those trains will be moved to other TOCs

 

[Yew]

Those trains will be moved to other TOCs

Surely the other way around is better? With 172's or whatever taking medium distance and commuter routes (say EMT's liverpool - Norwich) Meaning that some 156/8's can go to northern?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Why would you want 172s on LIV-NRW? AFAIAC, the 150s and 156s are fine, I wouldn't want them replaced with Bombardier's usual offerings anyway!

 

[sprinterguy]

No they couldn't. We don't need diesel stock, we need more electric stock. And we especially don't need Bombardier Stock.

While I advocate electrification in order to replace Pacers and increase capacity as much as possible, it is clear that there are a number of lines in the Northern area that are unlikely to ever be electrified, let alone within the typical lifespan of a new DMU if some were ordered right now. Additionally, even if all the electrification projects that I view to be necessary to allow all Pacers to be withdrawn were undertaken, these could not all be completed by the end of 2019, where even if an exemption is sought to allow the Pacers to run after this data there's still no escaping the fact that Pacers will be 35 years old at that point so it seems logical to have that as the cut off point.

Therefore, some new DMUs will be required in the future. It would have made sense if these had been built a few years ago, to allow some of the Pacers to be replaced there and then with the others still to be replaced by electrification in the future.

 

[AlanFry1]

Why would you want 172s on LIV-NRW? AFAIAC, the 150s and 156s are fine, I wouldn't want them replaced with Bombardier's usual offerings anyway!

The best train for that job would be the 170 or a UK built 185, but the 158 is very godd as well
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While I advocate electrification in order to replace Pacers and increase capacity as much as possible, it is clear that there are a number of lines in the Northern area that are unlikely to ever be electrified, let alone within the typical lifespan of a new DMU if some were ordered right now. Additionally, even if all the electrification projects that I view to be necessary to allow all Pacers to be withdrawn were undertaken, these could not all be completed by the end of 2019, where even if an exemption is sought to allow the Pacers to run after this data there's still no escaping the fact that Pacers will be 35 years old at that point so it seems logical to have that as the cut off point.

Therefore, some new DMUs will be required in the future. It would have made sense if these had been built a few years ago, to allow some of the Pacers to be replaced there and then with the others still to be replaced by electrification in the future.

We should still get more DMUs to replace the pacers and older sprinters and then move them on other other Northern services or other TOCs when more of the Northern Network is electrified (then we would need new EMUs)

 

[Yew]

Why would you want 172s on LIV-NRW? AFAIAC, the 150s and 156s are fine, I wouldn't want them replaced with Bombardier's usual offerings anyway!

I said 172's but in relaity I meant a new version of 158's as EMT are more likely to be able to afford the leasing costs of new stock than northern are

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I believe both 170s and 185s have a lot less capacity than a 3-car 158 though, even if EMT have none.
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Unless you take 3-car 170s off routes that need them, like BHM-SSD.

 

[AlanFry1]

I believe both 170s and 185s have a lot less capacity than an EMT 158 though.
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Unless you take 3-car 170s off routes that need them, like BHM-SSD.

Not if they were 4 car 170 and 185

 

[sprinterguy]

I believe both 170s and 185s have a lot less capacity than an EMT 158 though.

Pie in the sky thinking rearing its' head on this forum again, but if I had any say on the allocation of rolling stock in the future then I would have my eye on the class 168s currently operated by Chiltern for the Liverpool to Norwich service in the case of a future electrification of the Chiltern line: A four carriage Turbostar has a comparable number of seats to a pair of 158s, and the one third and two third door positions would be helpful in facilitating faster loading and unloading times on the busy western end of the route.

 

[AlanFry1]

Pie in the sky thinking rearing its' head on this forum again, but if I had any say on the allocation of rolling stock in the future then I would have my eye on the class 168s currently operated by Chiltern for the Liverpool to Norwich service in the case of a future electrification of the Chiltern line: A four carriage Turbostar has a comparable number of seats to a pair of 158s, and the one third and two third door positions would be helpful in facilitating faster loading and unloading times on the busy western end of the route.

What would be a good EMU for the Chiltern line?

I thought the 170 and 168 (168/1 and 168/2) were the same, apart from how long the trains are

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not if they were 4 car 170 and 185

But more than 4-car refurbed 158 than already run west of Nottingham?

 

[AlanFry1]

But more than 4-car refurbed 158 than already run west of Nottingham?

That would be 2 x Class 158 (2 car). I am talking about 1 (or 2) x Class 170/185 (4 car)

Also to note, the Class 185 on the TPE can be extended from 3-car to 4-car