Scottish independence

[kylemore]

The current Scottish parliament simply has power devovled to it from the UK parliament. The UK parliament could if just abolish it if they wanted to although I doubt they ever would. If the Scottish Parliament just go ahead and hold a referendum, it would not be binding on the UK government. The best plan would be for the Scottish parliament to agree with the UK government on any referendum first. If the UK government agree with the terms of the referendum and that it will be legally binding then there will be no doubt over what the result will be should the people vote for independence.

That assumes a "Veto" ie that whether to hold a referendum and whether to respect the result is a matter for the UK Government.
The convention in Scotland pre-union was that the "People" were sovereign not the Monarch (who was styled King of Scots not King of Scotland) or indeed Parliament. Therefore the Right to decide this question is invested in the "People" of Scotland and how they wish to express that Right is not dependent on the permission or otherwise of a body called the UK Government.
Messy perhaps, open to dispute probably, interesting times ahead - definitely!

 

[Zoe]

The convention in Scotland pre-union was that the "People" were sovereign not the Monarch (who was styled King of Scots not King of Scotland) or indeed Parliament. Therefore the Right to decide this question is invested in the "People" of Scotland and how they wish to express that Right is not dependent on the permission or otherwise of a body called the UK Government.

How things were done pre-union does not give the general public the automatic right to decide directly on constitutional matters now. Scotland ceased to exist as a separate sovereign nation state when the Act of Union was passed and is now part of the United Kingdom, a sovereign unitary nation state with a parliamentary democracy. In unitary nation states central government is supreme, regardless of any constitutional status that previously existed.

 

[Butts]

I don't recall that Scottish people got the choice (referandum) when the Union was pushed onto them. Why should English people have a say in them wishing to leaving it!

Pometheus makes fair point. As a Scot I have experienced the need to state that "No. I am not English" nwhen going through customs, all over the place in my travels. English people never have to question being asked, be it English or British. In most parts of the World that means the same thing.

Another point! Why is it that English people can move to Scotland and still vote for the same political parties as if they were still in England, but Scots living in England, as well as Welsh and Northern Irish, cannot vote for their 'National' parties, in this case the SNP. Afterall, we are told that we are all 'One' Country!

Whether you are for or against Independence there are many anomalies that should be addressed. Why has it taken over 300 years to even be discussed!

There is nothing to stop The SNP or Plaid Cymru or Unionists putting candidates up for election in England.

If you want to vote for The SNP move back to Scotland don't sit moaning about it in England.

The reason most English people are unable to distinguish between UK/England is due to the fact they think they are one and the same.

Witness the way they use the British National Anthem at sporting events rather than their own.
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How things were done pre-union does not give the general public the automatic right to decide directly on constitutional matters now. Scotland ceased to exist as a separate sovereign nation state when the Act of Union was passed and is now part of the United Kingdom, a sovereign unitary nation state with a parliamentary democracy. In unitary nation states central government is supreme, regardless of any constitutional status that previously existed.

I'm sure your views are held sincerely and technically in many respects correct.

However you are acting as the greatest recruiting sargeant the SNP could have.

Similar outpourings from South of the Border are having the opposite effect of their intent in that a lot of commentators offer a patronising view that just makes people more determined to break the Union up.

 

[WestCoast]

The reason most English people are unable to distinguish between UK/England is due to the fact they think they are one and the same.

Witness the way they use the British National Anthem at sporting events rather than their own.

I am not sure about "most English people" not managing to make the destinction, living in the North West of England, which borders Scotland to the North and Wales to the South, I think more people than you are assuming are aware of the difference!
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Another point! Why is it that English people can move to Scotland and still vote for the same political parties as if they were still in England, but Scots living in England, as well as Welsh and Northern Irish, cannot vote for their 'National' parties, in this case the SNP. Afterall, we are told that we are all 'One' Country!

And why are Scottish MPs allowed to vote that on laws that only affect England, but not vice versa?

You vote for an MP in your constituency, not a party, so if your chosen party decides not to field a candidate in your constituency, then you cannot vote for that party. So, it's quite obvious why you can't vote for the SNP in England!

In England, there aren't really any mainstream national parties, so the choice isn't there. LibLabCon all take a UK perspective, they aren't (at least officially) "English parties".

 

[Zoe]

And why are Scottish MPs allowed to vote that on laws that only affect England, but not vice versa?

The UK parliament is responabile for laws that affect England. Scottish MPs are members of the UK parliament and it's only fair that all MPs get to vote when the UK parliament votes. The regions of England were going to be offered devolution but the first to be asked the question rejected it.

 

[Bill EWS]

So, it stays bias't to the English who can vote for the same, wherever they stay in the UK!

 

[Zoe]

they aren't (at least officially) "English parties".

There are, it's just their support is so low they have very little chance of winning a seat.

 

[WestCoast]

There are, it's just their support is so low they have very little chance of winning a seat.

I was referring to Labour, Conservatives and the LibDems as the most popular parties in England, which all take a UK outlook.
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The UK parliament is responabile for laws that affect England. Scottish MPs are members of the UK parliament and it's only fair that all MPs get to vote when the UK parliament votes. The regions of England were going to be offered devolution but the first to be asked the question rejected it.

What like Scottish MPs voting on tripling English tuition fees which they know won't affect their own constituents? Doesn't seem very fair to me, and it's certainly not democratic as no one in England elected them to make that choice.

Is all very well saying "things are biased towards the English" or "the shackles of Westminster should be removed", but really would the Scottish honestly be happy if they were affected by these things?

 

[Badger]

If Scotland is made independant, what happens to the UK's nuclear arsenal?

 

[WestCoast]

So, it stays bias't to the English who can vote for the same, wherever they stay in the UK!

I really don't see your point. How on earth is it biased? You can choose where you live in the UK, the SNP are most welcome to enter English politics, but they choose not to. You wouldn't blame the SNP for not fielding candidates in England!

Anyway, an English conservative supporter in Scotland in many cases won't be able to make much of a difference as the tories have less support overall!

I am half Scottish by blood and have many relatives living in the Borders and the Lothians, but I don't think that England is getting a fair deal out of the current system at the moment.

 

[Greenback]

If Scotland is made independant, what happens to the UK's nuclear arsenal?

Presumably it would remain as the UK arsenal, thus not including Scotland should independence come about, but remaining under the control of the UK government which would include Welsh and Northern irish MP@s if those countries remain in the Union.

I really don't see your point. How on earth is it biased? You can choose where you live in the UK, the SNP are most welcome to enter English politics, but they choose not to. You wouldn't blame the SNP for not fielding candidates in England!

Anyway, an English conservative supporter in Scotland in many cases won't be able to make much of a difference as the tories have less support overall!

I am half Scottish by blood and have many relatives living in the Borders and the Lothians, but I don't think that England is getting a fair deal out of the current system at the moment.

I don't think anyone is getting a particularly fair deal at present. I don't think that devolution can or will be reversed, as there is no mandate for that, so to my mind the only way to go is towards the break up of the United Kingdom.

 

[ainsworth74]

Presumably it would remain as the UK arsenal, thus not including Scotland should independence come about, but remaining under the control of the UK government which would include Welsh and Northern irish MP@s if those countries remain in the Union.

It's been stated somewhere or other that the deterrent would remain with the rump of the UK (mostly because Scotland doesn't want any of it). However, there are issues about who should pay and how much towards the costs of relocating it elsewhere within the UK.

 

[Bill EWS]

Just knew someone was going to go on about 'Moaning'. I was merely pointing out the situation in what is supposed to be a debate..

 

[kylemore]

I was referring to Labour, Conservatives and the LibDems as the most popular parties in England, which all take a UK outlook.
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What like Scottish MPs voting on tripling English tuition fees which they know won't affect their own constituents? Doesn't seem very fair to me, and it's certainly not democratic as no one in England elected them to make that choice.

Is all very well saying "things are biased towards the English" or "the shackles of Westminster should be removed", but really would the Scottish honestly be happy if they were affected by these things?

OK and most if not all Scots who are not politicians would agree with you - so stop moaning and fight for English Independence!
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If Scotland is made independant, what happens to the UK's nuclear arsenal?

I would asume that it would remain under the control of the USA as at present!

 

[ainsworth74]

I would asume that it would remain under the control of the USA as at present!

Erm, just no...

 

[WestCoast]

OK and most if not all Scots who are not politicians would agree with you - so stop moaning and fight for English Independence!

I was just making a point about how things are "biased" in both directions. I would support the introduction of an English Parliament fully, but it seems most people in England just don't realise or don't care about how serious the situation is. There's no real desire for independence.

 

[kylemore]

Erm, just no...

Ok this will remain theoretical until they actually try to use it, then we'll find out how "Independent" the UK's Nuclear detterent really is!

My own guess is that all the protocols would be gone through, the PM would order the launch, the myriad of safeguards observed and finally, finally when the man (or woman!) on the nuclear sub presses the final, final button or turns the final, final key..................nothing, except an urgent call at no. 10 from across the pond!

 

[Butts]

I was just making a point about how things are "biased" in both directions. I would support the introduction of an English Parliament fully, but it seems most people in England just don't realise or don't care about how serious the situation is. There's no real desire for independence.

That's because to them Westminster is the English Parliament with a few colonial celts thrown in as an afterthought.

 

[ainsworth74]

My own guess is that all the protocols would be gone through, the PM would order the launch, the myriad of safeguards observed and finally, finally when the man (or woman!) on the nuclear sub presses the final, final button or turns the final, final key..................nothing, except an urgent call at no. 10 from across the pond!

Hows that tin foil hat doing? Fitting nice and snugly I hope

 

[Old Timer]

It's been stated somewhere or other that the deterrent would remain with the rump of the UK (mostly because Scotland doesn't want any of it). However, there are issues about who should pay and how much towards the costs of relocating it elsewhere within the UK.

There is no reason that there could not be a mutual defence Policy.

If you take the case of Ireland, were there to be a sudden Nuclear threat then I have absolutely no doubt that the UK would come to the support of Ireland when asked.

Despite the very vocal and violent actions of a small but volatile minority in Ireland, there are very close historic links between the two Countries and much co-operation.

There are also Cities in the UK where there has been an inter-marriage between the English and Irish for generations, Birmingham and Liverpool are good examples where just about everyone who is a natural citizen either has immediate or close family associations with Ireland.

It is certainly the case thet people in Ireland are very welcoming to the Britsh Forces when an Irish member is killed and returned to Ireland. The Regimental representatives are treated with a degree of respect and hospitality that would make the English embarrased if they only knew.

 

[ainsworth74]

There is no reason that there could not be a mutual defence Policy.

Of course and it would be foolish not to have some sort of coordinated policy as we after all both live on the same island. But seeing as the SNP are in favour of unilateral disarmament I can't see them allowing the deterrent to remain in Scotland and surely agreeing to put themselves under our nuclear umbrella would be somewhat hypocritical (at least in the present time when there isn't much in the way of a direct threat that needs a nuclear option)?

 

[Old Timer]

I agree with you on that point but its amazing how rapidly the anti-nuclear lot change their minds when some third world country is lining up the war heads and setting the targets.

If you remember Manchester was a Nuclear Free Zone, and this was much welcomed by the Soviets who said that they would not bomb Manchester, meanwhile behind the scenes the pre-emptive missile targets still included large parts of Manchester, as the Soviets admitted after the collapse of the Berlin Wall. Macunian Labourites however continued to applaud the Soviets and used their words as a means of accusing Mrs Thatcher of "war mongering". When the truth came out the condemnation of the Soviets from these people was deafening in its silence.

Sadly the nuclear pandora's box is well open and there is no way back. Remember that the Muslin Nuclear option will be driven by a twisted idealology where mutual destruction is seen as a direct lift to Allahs side and the 30 Virgins.

Whether we like it or not Nuclear deterrence is here to stay.

 

[LE Greys]

Of course and it would be foolish not to have some sort of coordinated policy as we after all both live on the same island. But seeing as the SNP are in favour of unilateral disarmament I can't see them allowing the deterrent to remain in Scotland and surely agreeing to put themselves under our nuclear umbrella would be somewhat hypocritical (at least in the present time when there isn't much in the way of a direct threat that needs a nuclear option)?

Surely if Scotland remains a signatory ro the North Atlantic Treaty (and I can't really see them no being so) then an attack on the Scottish mainland is an implicit attack on every NATO country including the USA. I'm not sure if any NATO countries have split before, so Scotland may have to re-sign.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely if Scotland remains a signatory ro the North Atlantic Treaty (and I can't really see them no being so) then an attack on the Scottish mainland is an implicit attack on every NATO country including the USA. I'm not sure if any NATO countries have split before, so Scotland may have to re-sign.

I can't remember if they said they wanted to remain in NATO or not to be honest

Certainly if they were to remain inside then they would be automatically covered by the other NATO members nuclear weapons, but I still can't see them agreeing to keeping the nuclear weapons in Scotland as the SNP have made it fairly clear that they are disarmament minded and indeed their membership of NATO would go against their disarmament agenda as NATO members field significant nuclear forces (some more so than others).

 

[kylemore]

Hows that tin foil hat doing? Fitting nice and snugly I hope

Thanks ainsworth I find that Bacofoil is best at keeping the rays out but Asda's smart price will do at a pinch.

I think with this one 'the proof will be in the pudding' as they say, however as the 'Special Relationship' has never more obviously been one of Master and Servant I very much doubt if our 'Independent Deterrent' would ever be used 'Independently'.
At least that rogue Harold Wilson stood up to them enough to keep us out of Vietnam. The present mob (Tory/New Lab/Lib Dems - whatever) fall over themselves to put young British lives in danger in worthless wars at the US's sayso, personified by that odious item Hague.
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I agree with you on that point but its amazing how rapidly the anti-nuclear lot change their minds when some third world country is lining up the war heads and setting the targets.
.

What like Israel for instance?

 

[Badger]

I was thinking today about something said somewhere (might have been here) suggesting the border should be below Newcastle. I'm not going to argue whether that's right or wrong, will simply pose a hypothetical situation where that did happen...

The football world would be vastly changed!

Imagine having Newcastle and Sunderland in the SPL. Would allow two new Championship teams to be promoted. Plus it might balance the SPL a bit, less two-team (now one-team...) heavy. Championship would be unaffected but (assuming teams moved, which is unlikely tbh) Hartlepool and Carlisle in League 1.

Or indeed, for that matter, Falcons from the Rugby premiership.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I was thinking today about something said somewhere (might have been here) suggesting the border should be below Newcastle. I'm not going to argue whether that's right or wrong, will simply pose a hypothetical situation where that did happen...

The football world would be vastly changed!

Imagine having Newcastle and Sunderland in the SPL. Would allow two new Championship teams to be promoted. Plus it might balance the SPL a bit, less two-team (now one-team...) heavy. Championship would be unaffected but (assuming teams moved, which is unlikely tbh) Hartlepool and Carlisle in League 1.

Or indeed, for that matter, Falcons from the Rugby premiership.

Being situated in one country doesn't necessarily mean that you must play football in that country. Look at Berwick Rangers, Cardiff City, Swansea City, Wrexham, Newport County and TNS (Oswestry) today, and in the past Gretna.

 

[CarterUSM]

Incidently, I read in a book years ago that Newcastle United applied to join the Scottish football league during the 50's. I don't know much else about it, I have a feeling they were refused, but I cannot say for sure.

 

[Butts]

Anyone watching Question Time (from St Andrews) on Thursday will have been given another indicator of how the Independence Case is being strenghtened by silly remarks from English Politicians.

Frank Field kept referring to Scotland breaking away from England despite twice being corrected by members of the audience that he should have been saying Scotland leaving the United Kingdom out of deference to Wales and Northern Ireland.

The conclusion people draw up here is that once again English Politicians are unable or unwilling to differentiate between England and the United Kingdom, regarding the other three members as inconsequential. :cry:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Funny that, Mr Field is one of only two Labour MPs I can stand the sight of. Quite unexpected error, Labour's future almost relies on Scotland staying.