Scottish independence

[Butts]

I suppose in the case of England - Scotland we'd be going in the opposite direction, i.e. from having no border at all, to the least noticeable one possible (I would hope anyway!).

No....it will be like Wales you pay to get in but we let you out for free

Could be interesting if taxation rates altered particularly on Petrol, Booze and Fags.

There used to be a lot of cross border shopping in Ireland between the North and the South depending on who had the cheapest products at any particular time.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm off back to the asylum to dream of The United Kingdom of Scotland, Northern England, Mid and North Wales (except Rhyl and Wrexham) and Cornwall.

Capital : Falkirk

That sounds quite a nice Country to be in although the only rightful capital for a "Britannia Superior" such as that would of course be York

 

[WestCoast]

I suppose in the case of England - Scotland we'd be going in the opposite direction, i.e. from having no border at all, to the least noticeable one possible (I would hope anyway!).

Well, possibly not if Scotland joins the mini-Schengen that is Common Travel Area of the British Isles and Ireland. There are, of course, no routine passport inspections between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. You can travel on your driving license to Ireland/Channel Islands/Isle of Man e.t.c.

Of course, Scotland is under no obligation to join the CTA and could instead join the Schengen zone, which would mean full passport inspections at all border crossings between Scotland and England as per EU regulations. However, unless Scotland really wanted to annoy England, that wouldn't happen...

Interestingly enough there are literally no signs to mark the border between NI and ROI, I suspect this is for political reasons. All you get is a sign saying that the speed limits will change from mph to kmph.

 

[Butts]

Well, possibly not if Scotland joins the mini-Schengen that is Common Travel Area of the British Isles and Ireland. There are, of course, no routine passport inspections between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. You can travel on your driving license to Ireland/Channel Islands/Isle of Man e.t.c.

Of course, Scotland is under no obligation to join the CTA and could instead join the Schengen zone, which would mean full passport inspections at all border crossings between Scotland and England as per EU regulations. However, unless Scotland really wanted to annoy England, that wouldn't happen...

Interestingly enough there are literally no signs to mark the border between NI and ROI, I suspect this is for political reasons. All you get is a sign saying that the speed limits will change from mph to kmph.

I can't see Schenegen coming into force - it would be like Eire/NI with one big difference.....

No KPH ......MPH both sides

 

[Zoe]

No KPH ......MPH both sides

Scotland could of course decide to go metric. Maybe A roads will become N roads north of the border.

 

[WestCoast]

Could that be a result of pragmatism though? It imagine it would be quite difficult to man an entire border, the US/Mexico border is a good example of what happens when one tries.
In Britain though we have the sea apart from the Channel tunnel so we only really need to check at airports, ports and the Tunnel.

No, my point is that people don't see borders as somewhere particularly noteworthy or limiting anymore in mainland Europe. People cross them daily as we would counties. The local services (such as the fire and police departments) of each country will often work closely together to ensure that the border doesn't hinder anyone.

Border controls between EU countries did exist in the past and this can be seen from abandoned checkpoints.

It's a hard concept to grasp because Great Britain is an island, but the other mainland European countries often think of themselves as a "true bloc".

 

[yorksrob]

Well, possibly not if Scotland joins the mini-Schengen that is Common Travel Area of the British Isles and Ireland. There are, of course, no routine passport inspections between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. You can travel on your driving license to Ireland/Channel Islands/Isle of Man e.t.c.

Of course, Scotland is under no obligation to join the CTA and could instead join the Schengen zone, which would mean full passport inspections at all border crossings between Scotland and England as per EU regulations. However, unless Scotland really wanted to annoy England, that wouldn't happen...

Interestingly enough there are literally no signs to mark the border between NI and ROI, I suspect this is for political reasons. All you get is a sign saying that the speed limits will change from mph to kmph.

That is true. I remember hearing on a radio programme from someone in the Irish Government that the ROI would have liked to have joined the Schengen zone but felt that it would have been impractical due to it's border with the UK which is of course not in the Schengen Zone.

My own view (as an Englishman) is that I am quite happy with the Common Travel Area, but I would have to look more closely at the implications of joining the Schengen zone before I agreed to joining it.

 

[Butts]

No, my point is that people don't see borders as somewhere particularly noteworthy or limiting anymore in mainland Europe. People cross them daily as we would counties. The local services (such as the fire and police departments) of each country will often work closely together to ensure that the border doesn't hinder anyone.

Border controls between EU countries did exist in the past and this can be seen from abandoned checkpoints.

It's a hard concept to grasp because Great Britain is an island, but the other mainland European countries often think of themselves as a "true bloc".

I'm not sure the French would endorse those comments at least privately

It's really boring now your passport is hardly ever stamped in Europe unless you travel to Serbia or the like. There are some "serious" old border points between Eastern European Countries and the former Western Ones.

You'll just have to rebuild Hadrians Wall - which means we get loads of the North of England back.

 

[WestCoast]

My own view (as an Englishman) is that I am quite happy with the Common Travel Area, but I would have to look more closely at the implications of joining the Schengen zone before I agreed to joining it.

In mainland Europe, you have borders that look like this, this and this. It would be a joke even trying to establish a checkpoint, so instead the countries just work together.

 

[CarterUSM]

I am not anyone you know.

I wasn't attributing it to you.

 

[WestCoast]

I'm not sure the French would endorse those comments at least privately:

I am talking the "offical" stance here. What the people think is often irrelevant...

However, having experienced a border town/city, they probably have a different view to the rest of their home country.

 

[Zoe]

I wasn't attributing it to you.

Maybe not but I didn't get what I typed in the post from anyone.

 

[Jonny]

You'll just have to rebuild Hadrians Wall - which means we get loads of the North of England back.

Or the Antonine Wall instead?

Hadrian's Wall runs right through Newcastle City Centre.

 

[yorksrob]

In mainland Europe, you have borders that look like this, this and this. It would be a joke even trying to establish a checkpoint, so instead the countries just work together.

That's well and good for the individual travelling, but I don't believe it would be good for the country to have completely open borders with such a large area. Even France and Italy have had border difficulties recently between themselves due to circumstances beyond their control.

 

[Jonny]

The other questions would be, how would debt be allocated? RBS was effectively run from Edinburgh when it crashed, as was HBOS (now part of Lloyds) for that matter; so the debts from that can only really be allocated to Scotland. Also, there haven't been reparations for the Jacobite Rebellion etc...

While I'm on, what about paying for new/upgraded cross-border infrastructure?

 

[CarterUSM]

Maybe not but I didn't get what I typed in most post from anyone.

No maybe about it.

 

[WestCoast]

That's well and good for the individual travelling, but I don't believe it would be good for the country to have completely open borders with such a large area. Even France and Italy have had border difficulties recently between themselves due to circumstances beyond their control.

It's more than individual travelling though, some people work/study/shop in one country and live in another. I have even heard of schoolkids crossing borders to go to school. As an example Half of the workers/students in the Dutch city of Maastricht live in Belgium because of costs. They cycle across the border, it's 10 minutes by bike.

I must admit that open borders can be more troublesome with the Southern European and Eastern European countries (not least because of language and cultural differences), but the key has to be police forces e.t.c working together to tackle 'international' issues. Most of the Northern European and Scandinavian countries all share a lot of information with each other.

The countries retain the right to enact border patrols for a limited time for various reasons. It does help that most of the countries have ID cards as well (that in some cases must be carried), so people won't be troubled if this does happen.

 

[Zoe]

No maybe about it.

I said

Would you like it if someone took over part of the country you live in? I'm not saying any side is "right" here but that all views on the status of Ireland should be taken into account.

I did not take that quote from anyone so it can't be attributed to anyone else. It may well be that there is a person you know that has also said the same thing but that doesn't make it their quote or indeed my own quote.

However after reading back through the thread it seems you may actually be referring to a comment in your post and if that's the case, sorry for any confusion.

 

[yorksrob]

It's more than individual travelling though, some people work/study/shop in one country and live in another. I have even heard of schoolkids crossing borders to go to school. As an example Half of the workers/students in the Dutch city of Maastricht live in Belgium because of costs. They cycle across the border, it's 10 minutes by bike.

I must admit that open borders can be more troublesome with the Southern European and Eastern European countries (not least because of language and cultural differences), but the key has to be police forces e.t.c working together to tackle 'international' issues.

The countries retain the right to enact border patrols for a limited time for various reasons.

In my opinion, border controls are a necessary check against "international" issues. If they weren't, there wouldn't be the right to enact border controls for na limited period. Police forces have enough work with domestic crime without having to deal with a porous border as well.

 

[WestCoast]

In my opinion, border controls are a necessary check against "international" issues. If they weren't, there wouldn't be the right to enact border controls for na limited period. Police forces have enough work with domestic crime without having to deal with a porous border as well.

I understand what you are saying, but how do you do this on a residential street which is cut in half by a border? You're looking at this from a British perspective, where borders are very clearly defined i.e. the sea. The key with Schengen is to act as the border - the thinking that the borders of Schengen are the borders of 'Fortress Europe'.

I don't particularly think it's a perfect system, but I can't really see an alternative for a modern progressive place like Europe.

These controls are very rare (especially in Northern Europe) and are 'intelligence based', so not too dissimilar to a police checkpoint after the police have recieved a tip off that you might see in the UK.

Don't forget that countries in the Schengen zone have to trust each other. They share the same visa system, so for example, when a US visitor arrives in Germany he/she is issued with a visa for the whole of Schengen.

 

[yorksrob]

I understand what you are saying, but how do you do this on a residential street which is cut in half by a border? You're looking at this from a British perspective, where borders are very clearly defined i.e. the sea.

These controls are very rare (especially in Northern Europe) and are 'intelligence based', so not too dissimilar to a police checkpoint after the police have recieved a tip off that you might see in the UK.

Don't forget that countries in the Schengen zone have to trust each other. They share the same visa system, so for example, when a US visitor arrives in Germany he/she is issued with a visa for the whole of Schengen.

We have those same issues with our border (some known terrorists have land both in Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic). My point is, why on earth would we add to our issues by taking on a whole new area without border controls. Don't get me wrong, if Schengen works for them, all well and good, but that doesn't mean we should have it.

 

[WestCoast]

We have those same issues with our border (some known terrorists have land both in Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic). My point is, why on earth would we add to our issues by taking on a whole new area without border controls. Don't get me wrong, if Schengen works for them, all well and good, but that doesn't mean we should have it.

I don't think we need to join it, I think as an outpost of Europe, the CTA suits our needs quite well and the UK should keep out. The only real problems it causes for EU nationals is waiting times at ports/airport, which is something that doesn't really bother me. Oh, and the fact that I think Ireland wants to join.

However, mainland Europe is a different story. Their borders are impossible to police, so a 'Fortress Europe' mentality is what they work on now. They have real cross border connections and it helps that there aren't really any major territory "disputes" between Schengen countries, even if the people don't always see 'eye-to-eye'.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think we need to join it, I think as an outpost of Europe, the CTA suits our needs quite well and the UK should keep out. The only real problems it causes for EU nationals is waiting times at ports/airport, which is something that doesn't really bother me. Oh, and the fact that I think Ireland wants to join.

However, mainland Europe is a different story. Their borders are impossible to police, so a 'Fortress Europe' mentality is what they work on now. They have real cross border connections and it helps that there aren't really any major territory "disputes" in Schengen, even if the people don't always see 'eye-to-eye'.

That's fair enough. I would hope that we would be able to streamline the cross border process to assist our European partners. I think we're sensible to be wary about whether "fortress Europe" will ever work. For Ireland, I guess they just have to weigh the pro's and cons.

 

[WestCoast]

That's fair enough. I would hope that we would be able to streamline the cross border process to assist our European partners. I think we're sensible to be wary about whether "fortress Europe" will ever work. For Ireland, I guess they just have to weigh the pro's and cons.

The only problem with Ireland is that they cannot really join Schengen without the UK doing the same. Otherwise, it would mean full border controls between NI and ROI, and that would have to include tiny country roads in order to maintain "fortress Schengen". They wouldn't be able to sign the Agreement if they didn't agree to it and then who would pay?

Ireland would technically join Spain, Italy, Greece e.t.c as Schengen's 'outer border'! It won't happen.

 

[yorksrob]

The only problem with Ireland is that they cannot really join Schengen without the UK doing the same. Otherwise, it would mean full border controls between NI and ROI, and that would have to include tiny country roads in order to maintain "fortress Schengen". They wouldn't be able to sign the Agreement if they didn't agree to it and then who would pay?

Quite. This is an area where I believe the United Kingdom has to put its interests first. Unfortunately for the Irish Republic, it has to work around this and to date, the maintenance of cross-border links has (understandably) been more important to them.

 

[WestCoast]

Quite. This is an area where I believe the United Kingdom has to put its interests first. Unfortunately for the Irish Republic, it has to work around this and to date, the maintenance of cross-border links has (understandably) been more important to them.

Ireland has to follow the UK, I sometimes get the impression they would like to "trot off" and follow the "French/German position on Europe", but in this instance they can't.

The UK and Ireland were one of the few EU countries to allow the "new wave" EU citizens into the country, which I am sure surprised a few people in Brussels!

The Queen's visit was of course the highlight of strengthening British-Irish relations and I think the long-term future is reasonably bright for the island of Ireland.

Although, one thing I have found a little odd is that when you fly from the UK to the Irish Republic, your passport is inspected upon arrival in the ROI. If you go the other way around, then there is generally no passport inspection.

 

[yorksrob]

The Queen's visit was of course the highlight of strengthening British-Irish relations and I think the long-term future is reasonably bright for the island of Ireland.

Indeed. I found it very moving and hope it will mark a real step forward in British-Irish relations.
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Although, one thing I have found a little odd is that when you fly from the UK to the Irish Republic, your passport is inspected upon arrival in the ROI. If you go the other way around, then there is generally no passport inspection.

I would of course say that that is the perogative of a sovereign country. When visiting myself, I was of course very dissappointed not to receive a stamp (as I am when visiting all European countries!).

 

[WestCoast]

I would of course say that that is the perogative of a sovereign country. When visiting myself, I was of course very dissappointed not to receive a stamp (as I am when visiting all European countries!).

Under the CTA agreement though..? It didn't used to be that way. They don't check by land and sometimes not by ferry. I suspect it may have more do with simplicity at airports. If everyone is happy with it, then no problems but they could't expect to do that in Schengen!

You won't receive a stamp in Europe. All they have is something like "Schengen visa stamp: entry Amsterdam" for non EU nationals. Plus, of course, travelling between Schengen members usually means no ID checks regardless of your method of travel. Most EU nationals travel around on their ID cards, no need for a passport.

In fact the more I think about, I tend to see why the UK is incompatible with Schengen. I think that ID cards would be required to make Schengen work in the UK/Ireland and they aren't coming any time soon!

 

[yorksrob]

Under the CTA agreement though..? It didn't used to be that way. They don't check by land and sometimes not by ferry. I suspect it may have more do with simplicity at airports. If everyone is happy with it, then no problems but they could't expect to do that in Schengen!

Well, to be honest, that's what being a country is. The CTA is an agreement between sovereign nations, and they have the right to disagree. It's up to the Irish who they let in to their country. Frankly, I'd be more concerned if some outside power had the ability impose its will on either the Irish Republic or the UK.

You won't receive a stamp in Europe. All they have is something like "Schengen visa stamp: entry Amsterdam" for non EU nationals. Plus, of course, travelling between Schengen members usually means no ID checks regardless of your method of travel. Most EU nationals travel around on their ID cards, no need for a passport.

Well, of course, we don't have I.D cards. Obviously it's up to us if we adopt them or not.

 

[WestCoast]

Well, to be honest, that's what being a country is. The CTA is an agreement between soverein nations, and they have the right to disagree. It's up to the Irish who they let in to their country. Frankly, I'd be more concerned if some outside power had the ability impose its will on either the Irish Republic or the UK.

The CTA is an agreement between Ireland, the UK, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. It states that the area should be a passport-free zone. Luckily, the Irish Government will admit any person that has proof of UK citizenship. What I am saying is that the CTA is a lot more flexible than Schengen, which probably suits the countries a bit more.

The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands don't inspect anything and they are technically 'independent' to some degree.
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Well, of course, we don't have I.D cards. Obviously it's up to us if we adopt them or not.

I have dual citizenship, so I have a German ID card (I was born there, but moved back when I was very young) as well as a UK passport. I can use whatever I like to travel. The perks aren't that great; I can go visa-free to Turkey and possibly the Ukraine, but that's about it!