Scottish independence

[Zoe]

I think that areas such as the South West also have cause for greater self governance.

That won't be popular in Cornwall, having decisions for Cornwall made in Bristol isn't that different to having decisions made in London.

 

[Butts]

With regard to the status of the constituent parts of the UK.

The Geneva based International Organisation for Standardisation formed in 1947 is the world body that gives us the ISO numbers on packaging etc.

It has just changed from considering England and Scotland to be the only countries in the UK with Wales as a principality and Northern Ireland a Province to upgrading Wales to equal Country status with Scotland and England

So this may help our dilemma :roll:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Here's an idea: stop the debating, give the Scots the independence their leaders so desperately crave, watch them fail and laugh. Sounds good to me!

Seriously though, I don't see how Scotland could survive alone - North Sea oil won't keep you afloat (pardon the slight pun) forever.

 

[Zoe]

Seriously though, I don't see how Scotland could survive alone - North Sea oil won't keep you afloat (pardon the slight pun) forever.

Ireland successfuly left the UK.

 

[CarterUSM]

Here's an idea: stop the debating, give the Scots the independence their leaders so desperately crave, watch them fail and laugh. Sounds good to me!

Seriously though, I don't see how Scotland could survive alone - North Sea oil won't keep you afloat (pardon the slight pun) forever.

I wouldn't laugh Matt, and remember it just the 90 minute patriot minority we are dealing with here. I'm a little impatient to see this issue being put to bed . Sooner the bleeding better!

 

[Butts]

Ireland successfuly left the UK.

Thats a matter of opinion - for the first sixty years it was poor and impoverished until "The Celtic Tiger" kicked in and lasted barely twenty years.

Most of the workforce emigrated or worked in England building the motorway network.

It may not be part of the UK but the reciporical agreements relating to trade and citizens rights make it all but in name.

 

[Zoe]

It may not be part of the UK but the reciporical agreements relating to trade and citizens rights make it all but in name.

Irish Nationalists would find that very offensive, even the term British Isles can be offensive and the Irish government avoid using the term. As for trade and citizines rights, both countries are in the EU and I expect Scotland would also be in the EU so would be no different.

 

[Butts]

Irish Nationalists would find that very offensive. As for trade and citizines rights, both countries are in the EU and I expect Scotland would also be in the EU so would be no different.

You have missed the point completely Irish Citzens are free to join many UK institutions including the Police and Armed forces (and many did) prior to the inception of both countries EU membership.

Why do you think they joined the EU when we did - we are their biggest trading partner.

Their currency was tied to sterling for fifty years after Independence.

The money Irish workers on the mainland sent home helped sustain their economy.

I was merely attempting to qualify what you meant by success

 

[CarterUSM]

I couldn't care less what Irish nationalists find offensive anyway.

 

[Zoe]

I couldn't care less what Irish nationalists find offensive anyway.

Would you like it if someone took over part of the country you live in? I'm not saying any side is "right" here but that all views on the status of Ireland should be taken into account.

 

[Butts]

Would you like it if someone took over part of the country you live in? I'm not saying any side is "right" here but that all views on the status of Ireland should be taken into account.

Check for the answer to that question in Wales and to a lesser degree Scotland

 

[yorksrob]

That won't be popular in Cornwall, having decisions for Cornwall made in Bristol isn't that different to having decisions made in London.

I agree with that in that I suspect that one of the reasons the New Labour idea of regional government in the North West (for example) failed to take hold, was that Liverpool didn't see itself as being in the same region of Manchester.

My view of better regional autonomy would be around City Mayors as exists in London, but based around the City regions.

Of course, that leaves a question about the areas not in the City regions, and as I don't dwell in one of those areas, I'm happy to take opinions from those living in them as to how rural England should be governed.

A revitalisation of County England anyone ?

 

[Butts]

I agree with that in that I suspect that one of the reasons the New Labour idea of regional government in the North West (for example) failed to take hold, was that Liverpool didn't see itself as being in the same region of Manchester.

My view of better regional autonomy would be around City Mayors as exists in London, but based around the City regions.

Of course, that leaves a question about the areas not in the City regions, and as I don't dwell in one of those areas, I'm happy to take opinions from those living in those areas as to how rural England should be governed.

A revitalisation of County England anyone ?

I think the problem is the size of England in comparison to Wales and Scotland which leads to less of a sense of national identity to rally around.

England has distinct regions as large as Scotland or Wales who tend to attempt to assert themselves but do not have a unifying factor to the same degree nationhood does.

 

[yorksrob]

With regard to the Irish Republic, I feel that it's worth remembering that on some occasions it has proved to be a bulwark against some of the more centralising tendancies of the European Union, and that we should appreciate them as neighbours who we perhaps have more in common with than we sometimes think.

 

[WestCoast]

While a cultural identity of a country or a region is an important asset to have, I don't think that England or indeed the rest of the UK should be looking for divisions and differences that separate regions.

In the USA, a land of mass immigration from so many different countries, the people may trace their heritage back to X but most of the people are still able to identify as "American", no matter where they live in the country or what their family heritage or cultural perspective is.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the problem is the size of England in comparison to Wales and Scotland which leads to less of a sense of national identity to rally around.

England has distinct regions as large as Scotland or Wales who tend to attempt to assert themselves but do not have a unifying factor to the same degree nationhood does.

True indeed. The regions of England may be varied but they are all as English as roast beef. How to translate this into a layer of Government though.

 

[Butts]

With regard to the Irish Republic, I feel that it's worth remembering that on some occasions it has proved to be a bulwark against some of the more centralising tendancies of the European Union, and that we should appreciate them as neighbours who we perhaps have more in common with than we sometimes think.

Thats exactly what I meant they are one and the same with all the interbreeding (forgive the tackiness) and shared history.
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True indeed. The regions of England may be varied but they are all as English as roast beef. How to translate this into a layer of Government though.

Northumberland and Westmorland are closer culturally to Scotland than the South of England - hence my previous suggestion to move them back into Scotland

 

[Zoe]

True indeed. The regions of England may be varied but they are all as English as roast beef.

That may be the case for most of the South West region but there are certainly people in Cornwall that consider themslves Cornish and not English.

 

[CarterUSM]

Would you like it if someone took over part of the country you live in? I'm not saying any side is "right" here but that all views on the status of Ireland should be taken into account.

I think there is a hell of a difference between 1920's Ireland and 2010 Scotland. And I attribute that comment to one of my friends, you know who you are!

 

[Zoe]

And I attribute that comment to one of my friends, you know who you are!

I am not anyone you know.

 

[WestCoast]

Northumberland and Westmorland are closer culturally to Scotland than the South of England - hence my previous suggestion to move them back into Scotland

I think Cumbria has a lot in common with North Yorkshire and the rest of rural Northern England. I doubt the communities there feel remotely Scottish (unless they have family ties)!

The only advantage of joining Scotland would be the perks that us folk south of the border don't get, some of them being rather significant!

 

[Zoe]

I think there is a hell of a difference between 1920's Ireland and 2010 Scotland.

The point here is that Ireland was able to leave the UK and has succefully remained outside it. It should be no different with Scotland.

 

[yorksrob]

That may be the case for most of the South West region but there are certainly people in Cornwall that consider themslves Cornish and not English.

That's true. Cornwall does indeed have a cultural identity of it's own, as well as particular economic and social challenges. I'm sure something could be worked out.
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Northumberland and Westmorland are closer culturally to Scotland than the South of England - hence my previous suggestion to move them back into Scotland

He he I see your point but it aint gonna happen. Perhaps we should look towards the example of Alsace in France and Saarland in Germany. Both international but comfortable on their respective sides of the border.

 

[Butts]

The point here is that Ireland was able to leave the UK and has succefully remained outside it. It should be no different with Scotland.

I thought you were referring to Economic Success not merely that it had left and not come back.

Scotland could survive as an Independent Nation but whether we will leave when it comes to the crunch - I doubt it somehow

Thirty years ago we could have done a Norway but the oil is running out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's true. Cornwall does indeed have a cultural identity of it's own, as well as particular economic and social challenges. I'm sure something could be worked out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


He he I see your point but it aint gonna happen. Perhaps we should look towards the example of Alsace in France and Saarland in Germany. Both international but comfortable on their respective sides of the border.

Don't forget we have the nukes (but not the codes) perhaps we may lay claim to Cornwall in addition to the afore mentioned areas of England.We can take the nice bits of Wales as well - Brecon and the North excluding those scouse filled enclaves of Rhyl and Wrexham

 

[yorksrob]

Don't forget we have the nukes (but not the codes) perhaps we may lay claim to Cornwall in addition to the afore mentioned areas of England.We can take the nice bits of Wales as well - Brecon and the North excluding those scouse filled enclaves of Rhyl and Wrexham

I'm off to me bunker then

 

[WestCoast]

Perhaps we should look towards the example of Alsace in France and Saarland in Germany. Both international but comfortable on their respective sides of the border.

Many of the continental European countries have a different relationship with borders in comparison to the UK, especially after the fall of communism. Before the eurozone crisis, many of the EU's member states were strongly for co-operation with neighbouring countries across the EU.

Of course, the Schengen Agreement in mainland Europe has almost eradicated signs of borders and people cross borders freely by car, local public transport or on foot. This could be for a leisure trip or even people on their way to work/the shops.

When I visit my friend living in a suburb of Aachen (Germany), a trip to the neighbouring suburb involves a short walk across the border into the Netherlands. Nobody seems to bat an eyelid.

 

[Butts]

I'm off to me bunker then

I'm off back to the asylum to dream of The United Kingdom of Scotland, Northern England, Mid and North Wales (except Rhyl and Wrexham) and Cornwall.

Capital : Falkirk

 

[yorksrob]

Many of the continental European countries have a different relationship with borders in comparison to the UK, especially after the fall of communism. Before the eurozone crisis, many of the EU's member states were strongly for co-operation with neighbouring countries across the EU.

Of course, the Schengen Agreement in mainland Europe has almost eradicated signs of borders and people cross borders freely by car, local public transport or on foot. This could be for a leisure trip or even people on their way to work/the shops.

When I visit my friend living in a suburb of Aachen (Germany), a trip to the neighbouring suburb involves a short walk across the border into the Netherlands. Nobody seems to bat an eyelid.

I suppose in the case of England - Scotland we'd be going in the opposite direction, i.e. from having no border at all, to the least noticeable one possible (I would hope anyway!).

 

[SS4]

Many of the continental European countries have a different relationship with borders in comparison to the UK, especially after the fall of communism. Before the eurozone crisis, many of the EU's member states were strongly for co-operation with neighbouring countries across the EU.

Of course, the Schengen Agreement in mainland Europe has almost eradicated signs of borders and people cross borders freely by car, local public transport or on foot. This could be for a leisure trip or even people on their way to work/the shops.

When I visit my friend living in a suburb of Aachen (Germany), a trip to the neighbouring suburb involves a short walk across the border into the Netherlands. Nobody seems to bat an eyelid.

Could that be a result of pragmatism though? It imagine it would be quite difficult to man an entire border, the US/Mexico border is a good example of what happens when one tries.
In Britain though we have the sea apart from the Channel tunnel so we only really need to check at airports, ports and the Tunnel.

As for Scotland I think the UK is greater than the sum of its parts. The Englishmen who want Scotland to secede are often also 90 minute patriots. It feels more like if it's not broken don't fix it sort of thing

 

[Zoe]

I'm off back to the asylum to dream of The United Kingdom of Scotland, Northern England, Mid and North Wales (except Rhyl and Wrexham) and Cornwall.

But then you'd have to fight over the name "United Kingdom" and .uk domain.