Scottish independence

[scotsman]

One possible answer to the franchise extension (how odd to use that term in a non railway context!) could be that it is the younger people that will have to live with the consequences of the referendum for longer, though on that basis you could argue for 10 year olds to have a vote!

16 year olds can pay tax, join the army, have sex and get married, yet can't vote. No taxation without representation!

I doubt even the SNP would say that a 40% vote for independence is a strong mandate, but I could be wrong! I think it'smore likely that a third option, for Devo Max, would tend to weaken the Yes vote. Again, I could be wrong, though!

Three options to divide the no camp - anyone who calls themselves a nationalist would vote yes!

If it would weaken the yes vote, the SNP wouldn't have put the option in!

 

[yorksrob]

If done that way it would be interesting if Scotland voted to stay in, and England voted for seperation.

If England were the only Country to vote for seperation, I would have thought that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would be rightfully entitled to retain the institutions of the United Kingdom and England would have to start negotiating it's own it's own, including UN, EU, Commonwealth, relationship with the Crown etc !

 

[WestCoast]

Is the plan for an independent Scotland to adopt the euro? I am sure that will go down well with the population. Obviously, the situation will hopefully have improved in a few years but that's going to be a tricky one to promote...

 

[michael769]

Is the plan for an independent Scotland to adopt the euro? I am sure that will go down well with the population. Obviously, the situation will hopefully have improved in a few years but that's going to be a tricky one to promote...

I believe the SNP preference is to maintain sterling. I certainly doubt that there is any more support for the euro up here than down south, and the SNP have a hard enough struggle to win a referendum as it is.

 

[table38]

And yet could they be truly independent with Sterling interest rates being set by the Bank of England?

 

[Talbot]

Is the plan for an independent Scotland to adopt the euro? I am sure that will go down well with the population. Obviously, the situation will hopefully have improved in a few years but that's going to be a tricky one to promote...

Hmm, interesting one, instead of the beggars hanging around GLC asking for " a couple of bob for a pint ", it would then be " a couple of euro's ", doesn't have the same ring to it. :roll:

 

[Eagle]

But we stopped using bob in 1971...

 

[scotsman]

But we stopped using bob in 1971...

Doesn't stop them asking

eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuUV1TjZyXk

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But we stopped using bob in 1971...

Is the bawbee still legal tender in Scotland ?

 

[Butts]

And yet could they be truly independent with Sterling interest rates being set by the Bank of England?

Didn't Ireland remain tied to Sterling until about the seventies when they went to the punt then eventually the euro ?

 

[WestCoast]

Hmm, interesting one, instead of the beggars hanging around GLC asking for " a couple of bob for a pint ", it would then be " a couple of euro's ", doesn't have the same ring to it. :roll:

I always find walking into Tesco in the Republic of Ireland strange with all the prices in euros and subconsciously thinking to myself "how much?!".

 

[reb0118]

Do you have any examples of this from the last three hundred years, which is basically since we became a United Kingdom? Because I'm struggling to come up with any...

Aye, 1714, 1719, & 1745

"Some wet their cheeks, some fyl'd their breeks, & some from fear did fa' man"

Witness statement from the Battle of Prestonpans 1745 commenting on the reaction of the Government forces to the Highland Charge. Remember these men were not cowards but regular troops used to standing up to whatever the French could throw at them yet the sight of a few bare arsed heilanders with broadsword and targe (not to mention the Lochaber Axe) was enough to put the fear of God into them.

However one generation down the line those self same Highlanders were carving out an Empire for Great Britain. There would never have been an Empire if it was not for the Scots. (To be fair a few Englishmen did venture overseas also & I believe a Welshman made it to Patagonia once, not forgetting the half of Ireland that were sent to Botany Bay on a one way exchange program although that may open another can of worms).

There are lots of reasons for the perceived break up of Great Britain but for me personally the main two are the loss & abandonment of the British Empire, as the Empire gave Britons a sense of pride but more importantly an outlet for their talents - military, political, & economical. Secondly the loss of manufacturing & engineering opportunities. This affected all of Britain but hit Scotland hard. What was worse, however, was the abandonment of these areas under Thatcher & her cronies. Contrary to her wee speech on the Downing Street steps she certainly did bring discord & disharmony to Scotland & has backhandedly helped the independence movement.

Scotland to all intents & purposes can be seen as a state in waiting (it already is a nation). We have maintained our own institutions - legal, educational, & ecclesiastical throughout the Union. We have our own culture, media, & international sporting organisations. The next step is fiscal autonomy - the ability to raise (& indeed alter) our own tax revenue.

However saying the above does not mean that I am pro full independence. I may feel 100% Scottish (I am in fact 50% Scottish;25% Irish; 25% English based on my Grandparents birthplaces) but that does not stop me being 100% British also - the two are not mutually exclusive (but they are not mutually exchangeable! How many English know the difference between English & British). I would prefer a federal United Kingdom (I'd even let Ireland rejoin if they asked nicely ). Let us stay united in the areas where we need each other & separate in those where we may work better apart.

Does an "independant" Scotland necessarily mean the break up of the UK? Discuss.

 

[Zoe]

Does an "independant" Scotland necessarily mean the break up of the UK? Discuss.

No, the UK is here to stay even without Scotland. The Act of Union with Northern Ireland will still be in force.

 

[Butts]

No, the UK is here to stay even without Scotland. The Act of Union with Northern Ireland will still be in force.

What about Great Britain - ie United Kingdom of Great Britain (England,Scotland and Wales) and Northern Ireland.

If we go and The Saltire with us from the Union Flag will the poor taffs finally get some recognition on it's successor

 

[Zoe]

What about Great Britain - ie United Kingdom of Great Britain (England,Scotland and Wales) and Northern Ireland.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was changed to the United Kingodom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so maybe another change to the United Kingdom of Southern Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

 

[WestCoast]

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was changed to the United Kingodom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so maybe another change to the United Kingdom of Southern Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

Either way, I can't think of another European country with such a long official name!

United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be simpler.

 

[Zoe]

United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be simpler.

It's not that simple though as the "union" part would be between Northern Ireland and the remaining parts of Great Britain. England and Wales are not separately in union with Northern Ireland.

 

[Butts]

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was changed to the United Kingodom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so maybe another change to the United Kingdom of Southern Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

Or perhaps The United Kingdom of Smaller Britain and Northern Ireland

 

[WestCoast]

It's not that simple though as the "union" part would be between Northern Ireland and the remaining parts of Great Britain. England and Wales are not separately in union with Northern Ireland.

United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland then? I don't think "southern Great Britain" sounds good at all. However, GB is entrenched in the country's history and I'd imagine losing that designation wouldn't be popular.

 

[reb0118]

No, the UK is here to stay even without Scotland. The Act of Union with Northern Ireland will still be in force.

That was not really the point of my question, however that was probably my fault for not being clear. What I was meaning was this - does Scotland or indeed England having full INTERNAL independence ultimately mean the break up, either now or in the future, of the UK?

In essence how far can we go before the split is permanent?

Pedants Corner

To answer your point above in my opinion there is no act of union between England & Northern Ireland. A constitutional expert should check this however:-

*Wales was incorporated into England for legal purposes in Tudor times (Henry VIII?)

*Henry VIII also declared himself King of Ireland (no political union just a personal regal union although Irish Parliament subservient to English Parliament under Poyning's law)

*1603 Union of Crowns - James VI of Scotland inherits Crown of England & ex officio Crown of Ireland (no political union - each country retains separate Parliament)

*1707 Union of Parliaments - Scotland & England join together to form new country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (the terms Scotland & England are abolished to be replaced with North & South Britain)

*1801 Union of Parliaments - Great Britain & Ireland join together to form new country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland.

*1922 The 26 counties of southern Ireland withdraw from the UK to form the Irish Free State -> Eire -> Republic of Ireland. The remaining country is styled the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

So in 1801 Ireland joined with Great Britain to form a new country - it did not join with Scotland or England. So if Scotland & England fully separate Great Britain no longer exists and in turn the union with the successor state of Northern Ireland must also break. Does Northern Ireland belong to Great Britain? If so just like in any divorce the belongings get divided up - so will Scotland & England each get 3 counties each? (I don't think so).

This shows that the break up of the UK is serious stuff. It will have a profound effect on all "Home Nations". I don't think Northern Ireland belongs to Great Britain - it is in an incorporating union WITH Great Britain and together they form the UK.

But it is my opinion that Northern Ireland's union with GB breaks if GB breaks herself. Northern Ireland would become de facto if not de jure independant and free to make any treaty of union with another county if desired.

In practice would this happen? The demographics have changed in the North. Nationalists on the increase - Ulster Unionists on the decrease. Is it automatic that Northern Ireland would form a new relationship with England or indeed Scotland? Does England wish to retain Northern Ireland? Would this be (cynically) an ideal opportunity to ditch any future potential Irish troubles? Or is it possible that the break up of the big island could encourage the joining up of the wee island? Who can tell?

I for one do not want to see any return to the "troubles" - this constitutional nightmare may just do that - I do hope not though.

If we go and The Saltire with us from the Union Flag will the poor taffs finally get some recognition on it's successor

I've always thought that it is not fair that the Welsh are missed out. If we take the Royal Standard the flag is divided into four and we have four home nations - one quarter for each - simples.

Er no........

On the Scottish version of the UK Royal Scotland has two quarters, England & Ireland one each. On the English version England has two quarters, Scotland & Ireland one each. The Irish use the English version.

This could easily be altered to accommodate the Welsh Dragon.

With regard to the old butcher's apron aka the Union Flag. I think it much harder to include a Welsh element & retain the basic simplicity of the flag - I'm open to offers though. Just drop me a line at the Palace.

Reason for lack of Welsh Symbols

Wales was incorporated into England under the Tudors (who were themselves of Welsh heritage - Rhys ap Tudor &c) and Wales was henceforth represented by the English flag & symbols. The Tudors did have a Welsh dragon as a supporter though on the royal coat of arms. James VI of Scotland replaced it with a Scottish Unicorn after 1603.

Either way, I can't think of another European country with such a long official name!

The Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia?

 

[WestCoast]

The Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia?

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is still longer in terms of characters! However, that one comes close.

 

[yorksrob]

This shows that the break up of the UK is serious stuff. It will have a profound effect on all "Home Nations". I don't think Northern Ireland belongs to Great Britain - it is in an incorporating union WITH Great Britain and together they form the UK.

But it is my opinion that Northern Ireland's union with GB breaks if GB breaks herself. Northern Ireland would become de facto if not de jure independant and free to make any treaty of union with another county if desired.

I'm not sure that I agree with your point that N Ireland would automatically be on it's own if Great Britain were to break up because throughout the period of the Union, Scotland and England have always been seperate legal entities from eachother and Northern Ireland has come to sit alongside these entities on the same level, rather than Great Britain.

Also, it would put Northern Ireland in a rather subservient position if it's relationship with England and Wales could be altered by a unilateral decision by Scotland to leave the UK.

In reality, I think that Northern Ireland is in a very similar situation to Scotland in that if the Nationalist parties obtained a mandate, they could demand a referendum and ultimately (if the vote goes that way) independence just like the SNP is doing. It would then of course, be free to unite with whomsoever it saw fit.

 

[Zoe]

Northern Ireland has come to sit alongside these entities on the same level, rather than Great Britain.

The Act of Union was between the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It was not between England, Scotland and Ireland. If Scotland wants to leave Great Britain (created by an earlier Act of Union) then the remaining part of Great Britain would still be in union with Nothern Ireland.

 

[yorksrob]

The Act of Union was between Great Britain and Ireland, not between England, Scotland and Ireland.

The 1801 Act of Union is, indeed reliant on the existance of the 1707 Act of Union, therefore if Scottish Independence were to be achieved by repealing the 1707 act, it would undo the 1801 act. However, I suspect that Scottish independence would instead be achieved through a completely new act of parliament without repealing the 1707 act, which would still be in place, albeit only in England Wales and Northern Ireland.

Of course, I'm not a constitutional expert so I might be wrong.

 

[Zoe]

However, I suspect that Scottish independence would instead be achieved through a completely new act of parliament without repealing the 1707 act, which would still be in place, albeit only in England Wales and Northern Ireland.

I would expect something like when Ireland left the UK.

 

[Butts]

Just to throw a further spanner in the works the SNP want to keep the Queen as head of state - so I'm not sure what effect this would have on the situation

 

[yorksrob]

Great Britain isn't a political entity anyway. The new Act would most likely say that Scotland was no longer a part of the United Kingdom.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would expect something like when Ireland left the UK.

Quite, In the way that the 1801 Act is still in place in Northern Ireland but not the Republic.

 

[Zoe]

Great Britain isn't a political entity anyway. The new Act would most likely say that Scotland was no longer a part of the United Kingdom.

Great Britain is defined as a political entity by the Act of Union 1707. The later Act of Union with Ireland created a single United Kingdom but this was between Great Britain and Ireland (later Northern Ireland) and from this time the two Kingdoms became a single political entity so Scotland would need to no longer be part of Great Britain boths Acts are to remain unchanged.

 

[yorksrob]

Just to throw a further spanner in the works the SNP want to keep the Queen as head of state - so I'm not sure what effect this would have on the situation

There are quite a few precedents for that, so that one might be a bit easier

 

[Butts]

There are quite a few precedents for that, so that one might be a bit easier

Yes but unlike Australia et al - Scotland has the Lord Lyon who does all the "heraldic stuff"

We are talking Englands Three Lions , Scotlands Lion Rampant, Irish Harp and the Scottish Unicorn (sorry Wales but you don't figure )