Virgin trains leaving Euston early?

[All Line Rover]

No - they only moan if they arrive late at their destination.

I wonder if anyone has complained to the Advertiding Standards Authority about not being allowed to board a departure advertised for (say) 19:40 when the platform entrance is closed at 19:38. To me, it is misleading advertising if you cannot board a train right up to the advertised departure time. Operational convenience for TOC's is no excuse, and I agree that the public timetables ought to advertise the departure time as the time that the platform (or train) doors start to close.

How hard is it to understand the meaning of the word "depart"?

Saying "this train is timed to DEPART (i.e. start MOVING) at 19:40" is completely different to saying "passengers can BOARD this train until 19:40."

For a train to DEPART at 19:40 requires the doors to be closed a few seconds earlier - in the case of a very long intercity train, quite a few seconds earlier.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

How hard is it to understand the meaning of the word "depart"?

Saying "this train is timed to DEPART (i.e. start MOVING) at 19:40" is completely different to saying "passengers can BOARD this train until 19:40."

For a train to DEPART at 19:40 requires the doors to be closed a few seconds earlier - in the case of a very long intercity train, quite a few seconds earlier.

Surprisingly I find myself in complete agreement with ALR here!

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed! I also agree with ALR.

Suggestions of going to the ASA because of this issue is nothing short of ridiculous. If the train *leaves* at 2040, you can't board at 20:39:59. This is common sense - something a lot of people accuse the railway of having in short supply.

 

[snail]

I wonder if anyone has complained to the Advertiding Standards Authority about not being allowed to board a departure advertised for (say) 19:40 when the platform entrance is closed at 19:38. To me, it is misleading advertising if you cannot board a train right up to the advertised departure time. Operational convenience for TOC's is no excuse, and I agree that the public timetables ought to advertise the departure time as the time that the platform (or train) doors start to close.

Where minimum boarding times apply it is clearly advertised at stations.

Just out of interest, do you also complain to airlines about their boarding policies? Or would you turn up at the airport at 19:38 for a 19:40 flight and expect to get on it?

 

[Stephen55a1960]

What I don't understand is why people moan so much about the two minutes. If I miss a train, I have to wait at least one, maybe two hours for the next one. It doesn't matter if I missed the train because of something out of my control.

If London-end Virgin customers miss a train, they have to wait no longer than one hour (even those going to Glasgow or Holyhead can conveniently change at Preston or Chester). For the majority of customers the wait is no longer than 20 minutes!

If you have an Advance ticket, I don't think two minutes is going to make a lot of difference. You should be at the station a lot earlier than that if you want to be sure of catching your booked train!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And if you miss it, why the fuss? The next train will already to available to board!

You might have misunderstood my post? There wouldn't be a fuss, unless there wasn't a wheelchair space on the following train (for example). It can be problematic. In general, though, I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Skymonster]

Just out of interest, do you also complain to airlines about their boarding policies? Or would you turn up at the airport at 19:38 for a 19:40 flight and expect to get on it?

No, but the airline will always tell you the minimum checkin time, not just on a poster at the airport, but on their website etc. and usually on the booking confirmation. Is it too much to ask that TOCs state something like "you need to be on the platform, boarding the train, two minutes before scheduled departure time", particlarly on Advance booking Ts&Cs and confirmations, where the two minute rule applies? I accept that - particularly on Advances - folks should be at the station well in advance of their booked departures, but occasionally s**t happens... All it takes is a road accident, or some unexpected roadworks, etc. I'd be annoyed if it just happened that one day something unexpected happened and I despite that I managed to arrive at the barrier 90 seconds before departure and was prevented from getting on the train - UNLESS I'd been advised beforehand that the barriers closed two minutes early, not on a poster at the station, but on my booking or in the Ts&Cs.

Andy

 

[dk1]

I am sure that Virgin have checked the legal bit. As with any TOC, us mere mortals must go along with it, put up & shut up. At the end of the day what is more important, pleasing the customer, or pleasing the DfT? I will leave it to you to decide.

 

[All Line Rover]

You might have misunderstood my post? There wouldn't be a fuss, unless there wasn't a wheelchair space on the following train (for example). It can be problematic. In general, though, I don't see what the problem is.

Oh no I wasn't referring to yourself. I was referring to the general public.

 

[calc7]

Oh no I wasn't referring to yourself. I was referring to the general public.

[pedant]you*[/pedant]

Sorry, ALR.

 

[Stephen55a1960]

Oh no I wasn't referring to yourself. I was referring to the general public.

Thanks a lot for that clarification - appreciated.

 

[All Line Rover]

No, but the airline will always tell you the minimum checkin time, not just on a poster at the airport, but on their website etc. and usually on the booking confirmation. Is it too much to ask that TOCs state something like "you need to be on the platform, boarding the train, two minutes before scheduled departure time", particlarly on Advance booking Ts&Cs and confirmations, where the two minute rule applies? I accept that - particularly on Advances - folks should be at the station well in advance of their booked departures, but occasionally s**t happens... All it takes is a road accident, or some unexpected roadworks, etc. I'd be annoyed if it just happened that one day something unexpected happened and I despite that I managed to arrive at the barrier 90 seconds before departure and was prevented from getting on the train - UNLESS I'd been advised beforehand that the barriers closed two minutes early, not on a poster at the station, but on my booking or in the Ts&Cs.

Andy

I agree with this. It must be within the realms of Virgin's (subcontracted) IT department to add a little notice about the two minute rule on their website and booking confirmation e-mails. (Thank GOD that subcontractor isn't ATOS!). At present, customers have no idea of the two minute rule until they turn up at Euston station.

However, I dispute the fact that you would have grounds for complaint if you arrived just 90 seconds before departure and had an Advance ticket (that's not to say discretion wouldn't be applied). Considering the amount of variables that could cause a two minute delay in central London, you would look like a bit of a fool if that was the only leeway you'd left yourself!

 

[Bevan Price]

How hard is it to understand the meaning of the word "depart"?

Saying "this train is timed to DEPART (i.e. start MOVING) at 19:40" is completely different to saying "passengers can BOARD this train until 19:40."

For a train to DEPART at 19:40 requires the doors to be closed a few seconds earlier - in the case of a very long intercity train, quite a few seconds earlier.

Your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am aware of how they operate, but quite a lot of passengers think the timetable means there is a train AT 19:40, not a train that you cannot access after 19:38. And what is the problem about advertising public times 1 to 2 minutes earlier than the WTT times, other than possible PR crap about journey times ?

 

[All Line Rover]

Your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am aware of how they operate, but quite a lot of passengers think the timetable means there is a train AT 19:40, not a train that you cannot access after 19:38. And what is the problem about advertising public times 1 to 2 minutes earlier than the WTT times, other than possible PR crap about journey times ?

OK, so they change the departure time to 19:38. What now? That train now needs to start moving at 19:38 (unless Virgin want complaints from customers about trains departing late), which means that the doors now have to lock EVEN EARLIER than before. Wonderful!

Virgin just can't win, can they? To dispatch an 11-carriage train at a station such as Euston - which has a number of curved platforms - takes time. Virgin do not secretly allow trains to depart two minutes early. They simply start the dispatch procedure up to (up to!) two minutes before departure, to ensure that the train departs on time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surprisingly I find myself in complete agreement with ALR here!

Thank you Ralph. I have taken a screenshot as a memento.

 

[Bevan Price]

OK, so they change the departure time to 19:38. What now? That train now needs to start moving at 19:38 (unless Virgin want complaints from customers about trains departing late), which means that the doors now have to lock EVEN EARLIER than before. Wonderful!

:

No. Train departs at 19:40, as specified in WTT. As I commented earlier, passengers are only interested in on-time arrivals. Why would anyone rational bother to complain about a late departure if they get to their destination on time ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed, my train ex-Euston was 5 minutes late departing yesterday, no-one seemed to care!

 

[Stephen55a1960]

OK, so they change the departure time to 19:38. What now? That train now needs to start moving at 19:38 (unless Virgin want complaints from customers about trains departing late), which means that the doors now have to lock EVEN EARLIER than before. Wonderful!

Virgin just can't win, can they? To dispatch an 11-carriage train at a station such as Euston - which has a number of curved platforms - takes time. Virgin do not secretly allow trains to depart two minutes early. They simply start the dispatch procedure up to (up to!) two minutes before departure, to ensure that the train departs on time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thank you Ralph. I have taken a screenshot as a memento.

Absolutely agree with you on this point! Can you imagine the ramifications of the following PA: " The time is now 19.38. The train departs at 19.40. Please take your seats now! Please hurry. The train is preparing to depart". Cue - undignified scramble along the platform (and to hell with anyone in the way). Er no! I think we should stick to the 2 minute rule.

 

[Pumbaa]

No. Train departs at 19:40, as specified in WTT. As I commented earlier, passengers are only interested in on-time arrivals. Why would anyone rational bother to complain about a late departure if they get to their destination on time ?

I always propose an entire railway shift of WTT to departures at xxxx:30, thus ensuring that if train is advertised as 1430, the whistle/doors go at 1430.00 and the whole train is moving by 1430.30. Thus negates the whole you must be on the train 20 secs/30 secs/40 secs/2 mins before departure time, and it all runs to time. Obviously still advertised in the PTT as 1430, just in the WTT 1430.30

Now I wait for all the "the railway couldn't ever possibly change..." comments about how the railway should do it it the way it is doing it because change for the benefit of the passenger is bad, apparently!

 

[All Line Rover]

No. Train departs at 19:40, as specified in WTT. As I commented earlier, passengers are only interested in on-time arrivals. Why would anyone rational bother to complain about a late departure if they get to their destination on time ?

I agree. But I disagree that the two minute rule is a big enough issue to change things, and that any changes would, overall, be detrimental to passengers (such as compensation, especially when Delay Repay comes in).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I always propose an entire railway shift of WTT to departures at xxxx:30, thus ensuring that if train is advertised as 1430, the whistle/doors go at 1430.00 and the whole train is moving by 1430.30. Thus negates the whole you must be on the train 20 secs/30 secs/40 secs/2 mins before departure time, and it all runs to time. Obviously still advertised in the PTT as 1430, just in the WTT 1430.30

Now I wait for all the "the railway couldn't ever possibly change..." comments about how the railway should do it it the way it is doing it because change for the benefit of the passenger is bad, apparently!

Now THAT'S a good idea! But what about arrivals? If arrival times stay the same, won't all trains have to arrive 30 seconds earlier than at present? And what about trains with many intermediate stops, that currently arrive and depart within a few seconds at those stations?

 

[Pumbaa]

The entire railway WTT will have to shift forward by 30 secs so its not an issue.

For the PTT at least, either have it listed as arriving at 1430 so when it arrives at 1429.30 it's a positive PR opportunity for the railways consistently, or have it listed as 1429 and hope that passengers don't mind by being 30 seconds into 1429.

Either way, not sure it matters.

 

[87015]

Virgin just can't win, can they? To dispatch an 11-carriage train at a station such as Euston - which has a number of curved platforms - takes time. Virgin do not secretly allow trains to depart two minutes early. They simply start the dispatch procedure up to (up to!) two minutes before departure, to ensure that the train departs on time.

So why does it take so long?

Just been to Belgium where everything at Brussels Midi - they have proper intercity trains of 13/14 26m coaches to boot - didn't need two minutes to depart on time, they whistled up and closed the doors at near enough :00 and it was rolling by :15, self-dispatch. If they had dispatch staff 10 seconds of that would be removed as that is the coutdown from the guard giving the RA on the platform to allow him to reboard and close the local door!

 

[bengley]

I'm a dispatcher for London Midland at Euston and we often close the doors 30 seconds before departure, with the train leaving the platform and the signal returning to red before the departure time, causing the train to show as 1 min early on trust.

 

[Flamingo]

The aim is to have the wheels starting to turn at XX:XX:00. (not XX:XX:59)

As ALR pointed out, that is the DEPARTURE time, not the "final boarding" time.

 

[All Line Rover]

I don't think we'll ever be in complete agreement here. It depends on whether you expect the train to start moving at the start of the minute, or during the minute. I, for one, favour the dictionary definition of the word "depart," which is the one that the railways go by.

Sure, I don't expect the guard to start the dispatch procedure two minutes before departure on a local stopping service. But on an intercity service with a relatively long journey time, I consider complaining about the (reasonably well advertised) up-to-two-minute dispatch procedure to be a non-story.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

Connection time at Euston is 15 minutes so I don't think that the doors closing 2 minutes early is a valid reason for missing a connection.

 

[calc7]

Connection time at Euston is 15 minutes so I don't think that the doors closing 2 minutes early is a valid reason for missing a connection.

What if your train is 13 1/2 minutes late?

 

[HowMuch?]

I support the proposal that the public timetable departure time should be when the doors, or platform barriers, close. As a passenger, what matters to me is the last time I can board, not when the train leaves the platform. And as others have said here, last-boarding time is what the journey planners should use when calculating an interchange.

Critics complain that the rail industry has too many Gotchas: "Yes I know we said x, but it was your responsibility to also read y,z,p, and q. That's another 50 quid, please. Kerching!" This is an opportunity to remove one Gotcha, at no cost to anyone, and to everyone's benefit.

I know cynics say that TOCs aren't interested in removing Gotchas, because all they care about are the Kerchings. But I believe that there are plenty of customer-focussed people in TOCs who think the opposite - that removing petty annoyances, and helping customers in as many ways as possible, is to the long-term commercial benefit of TOCs.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

What if your train is 13 1/2 minutes late?

A train arriving 13 1/2 minutes late is going to result in a missed connection at any station, assuming your connections are tight obviously (and if they aren't then there really is no need for this thread), as far as I know the two minute rule is only specific to certain main stations with a good connection time allowance - therefore I'm not really sure what all the nitpicking is about about whether the doors close on time or not.

 

[Statto]

Big problem is the layout of Euston Station itself, with the Platforms some distance from the concourse, which is why i can understand the boarding gates to the platform closing 2 min before departure, however i dislike Trains closing doors & departing early

 

[snail]

I am aware of how they operate, but quite a lot of passengers think the timetable means there is a train AT 19:40, not a train that you cannot access after 19:38. And what is the problem about advertising public times 1 to 2 minutes earlier than the WTT times, other than possible PR crap about journey times ?

Can we
(a) implement this proposal
(b) change the thread title to "Virgin trains leaving Euston late?"

Quote from revised OP: "Why does every train leave one or two minutes after the time shown on the timetable?"

 

[island]

The clue is in the announcement. This one will be made in a minute or two:

"The train at platform [#] is the 2110 Virgin Trains service to Preston, calling at Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, and Preston. Will customers intending to travel on this service please join the train now, as it is ready to leave? Platform [#] for the 2110 Virgin Trains service to Preston, which is ready to leave."