Virgin trains leaving Euston early?

[infobleep]

What about tube trains leaving 1 minute and 20-30 seconds before their departure time?

At Willesden Junction they don't say next train in 2 minutes, thu actually state the time. How I fairly often catch the 7.37am to Harrow and Wealdatone. A fair amount of the time it departs early. The earliest I've come across was 1 minute 30 seconds, although there was another time when I didn't even see the train listed and it was pre 7.37.

I can understand Euston trains closing their doors early but surely Tube trains don't need 2 minutes?

As it is, if they were to put next train in 2 minutes, they would invariably be 3 minutes or it often seems to be an extra minute in central London in the time they put. But that's another discussion.

For some train services I know I need to turn up early. E.g. Southern services from Harrow and Wealdstone. However in contrast, I do not need to turn up early for Lodon Midland services, even those departing ahortly before the Southern services because they are rarely on time during the rush hour (yet southern is) and when they are, they still arrive at the depature time rather than before it.

 

[bengley]

London Midland are rarely on time during the rush hour? I beg to differ there!

 

[krisk]

The time in the timetable is the departure time

 

[Pumbaa]

London Midland are rarely on time during the rush hour? I beg to differ there!

I don't. So glad I moved away from WCML south. Worst commute I have had.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I was on a train yesterday that arrived at the Station I was alighting at 4 mins early and then left 3 early.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No - they only moan if they arrive late at their destination....

I've had many complaints about trains leaving late, in my time on the railway, without a mention of their arrival time at the destination. I've heard people on buses moan about the driver waiting for time "why can't we just go?", "what are we waiting for?", "no-one is here", etc.

....I wonder if anyone has complained to the Advertiding Standards Authority about not being allowed to board a departure advertised for (say) 19:40 when the platform entrance is closed at 19:38. To me, it is misleading advertising if you cannot board a train right up to the advertised departure time....

The clue is in the name, "Departure time", not "Closing doors time".

....and I agree that the public timetables ought to advertise the departure time as the time that the platform (or train) doors start to close.

That wouldn't be a departure time though would it? I think it is quite a simple concept, the train departs at XX:XX so you need to be onboard before they close the doors, which will be before the departure time, not exactly rocket science.

No, but the airline will always tell you the minimum checkin time, not just on a poster at the airport, but on their website etc. and usually on the booking confirmation....

When I worked for Thameslink, they had already started putting notices in the timetable ("guide to services" I think they started to call it) about closing the train doors 10 seconds before the advertised departure times and we still had complaints about not being able to get on seconds before the "due time".

"It was three seconds early, if it had departed on time I could have got on it" was part of a complaint we had from a man who was timed on the CCTV as arriving on the platform seven seconds before the advertised departure time. Note, that is arriving on the platform, not even within twenty feet of the train much less a train door! Bear in mind here that the doors had a hustle alarm of around 5 seconds and then the doors actually close.

I know people who plan their day to the minute, and when I say that I really do mean "it takes ten minutes to get to the station and the train leaves at 14:00, so I better get going at 13:50".:roll:

 

[yorkie]

When I worked for Thameslink, they had already started putting notices in the timetable ("guide to services" I think they started to call it) about closing the train doors 10 seconds before the advertised departure times and we still had complaints about not being able to get on seconds before the "due time".

I don't think anyone can reasonably complain about that policy, it sounds perfectly reasonable to me. 120 seconds is bonkers. 10 seconds is fine. Yes, some people may complain about 10 seconds, but just bin the complaints I'd say.
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I was on a train yesterday that arrived at the Station I was alighting at 4 mins early and then left 3 early.

I know if that happens with Northern, they apologise and give you a complimentary ticket to use on any of their trains on one day (not happened to me, but to other forum members!)

 

[Holly]

The time in the timetable is the departure time

Regardless of the rights and wrongs and letter of the rules, when the public consult a timetable to find out "what time" is the train -- the time they will find useful is the very latest time by which they must present themselves at the right place on the right platform in order to be able to actually catch the train.

Not unreasonably that is the time they want to see because that is the time that is useful to them. Everything else is calculated backwards or forwards from that instant.

Modernly then the time advertised should be the very earliest time an on-the-platform passenger will be refused boarding for lateness. Barring very exceptional (and very rare) extenuating circumstances that is.

Anything else is worthy of trainspotters and lawyers; not worthy of real public service.

 

[barrykas]

At Willesden Junction they don't say next train in 2 minutes, thu actually state the time. How I fairly often catch the 7.37am to Harrow and Wealdatone. A fair amount of the time it departs early. The earliest I've come across was 1 minute 30 seconds, although there was another time when I didn't even see the train listed and it was pre 7.37.

I'd say that's a practical demonstration of why NR Customer Information Systems don't work for London Underground services.

What NR may think of as the 07:37 to Harrow & Wealdstone, the Bakerloo Line Working Timetable may well identify as Train 43...But what you see in the platform around that time could be Train 41 (for example) running late...or even Train 45 running early. As long as service frequency is maintained, LU aren't too fussed.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[causton]

I'd say that's a practical demonstration of why NR Customer Information Systems don't work for London Underground services.

What NR may think of as the 07:37 to Harrow & Wealdstone, the Bakerloo Line Working Timetable may well identify as Train 43...But what you see in the platform around that time could be Train 41 (for example) running late...or even Train 45 running early. As long as service frequency is maintained, LU aren't too fussed.

Cheers,

Barry

My observations are that on a good day, that would be the correct train shown as long as they all turn up at Queens Park (where they enter the NR system) in the right order, so it would be train 43, just tube drivers do not wait for departure time at intermediate stations normally unless booked to wait or held by the signaller. But yes, tube timetables are more a guideline, which is why most of that stretch of the Bakerloo now just says 'x mins'

 

[Tringonometry]

Although in this case they do, both the PTT and the WTT have the departure listed as 19.40.00.

The WTT departure time should never be *earlier* than the public departure time anyway.

One would hope that the reason for this is blindingly obvious.

 

[gswindale]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs and letter of the rules, when the public consult a timetable to find out "what time" is the train -- the time they will find useful is the very latest time by which they must present themselves at the right place on the right platform in order to be able to actually catch the train.

Not unreasonably that is the time they want to see because that is the time that is useful to them. Everything else is calculated backwards or forwards from that instant.

Modernly then the time advertised should be the very earliest time an on-the-platform passenger will be refused boarding for lateness. Barring very exceptional (and very rare) extenuating circumstances that is.

Anything else is worthy of trainspotters and lawyers; not worthy of real public service.

When I read the timetable, I take a d next to the station/time to mean that my train will be leaving at that time. I therefore allow sufficient time to cope with a queue for tickets etc and to walk to my choice of location on the platform.

It is the same with a bus. Be there so that the bus can depart on time or miss it!

 

[yorkie]

When I read the timetable, I take a d next to the station/time to mean that my train will be leaving at that time. I therefore allow sufficient time to cope with a queue for tickets etc and to walk to my choice of location on the platform.

That's fine at the start of your journey, but do you only ever take one train? Not many people live near Euston so it's likely their journey would have started elsewhere. Some journeys require several changes of trains.

It is the same with a bus. Be there so that the bus can depart on time or miss it!

Going back to the original topic, would you expect to have to board a bus 2 minutes early?

 

[richw]

Going back to the original topic, would you expect to have to board a bus 2 minutes early?

But then again would you board a plane bang on departure time?


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[Stephen55a1960]

But then again would you board a plane bang on departure time?


2

That would be physicallly impossible to do

 

[All Line Rover]

That's fine at the start of your journey, but do you only ever take one train? Not many people live near Euston so it's likely their journey would have started elsewhere. Some journeys require several changes of trains.

Euston is a large station with long, curved platforms and has a number of 11-car trains. Unlike at certain other stations (such as Paddington and Kings Cross), the only way to access the final carriage is to walk the entire length of the platform, bearing in mind that lots of people have heavy luggage so would struggle to walk down the train itself.

In these circumstances, I really don't think it is unreasonable to close access to the platforms 2 minutes before departure. I have never seen a train depart two minutes early - the majority of the time is spent waiting for the last few people on the platform to board the train.

Considering most people are making a 2 hour ish journey, I really don't understand why those two well publicized minutes are such as a big issue. If you really can't cope with getting to the station just a few minutes before departure (which you definitely will if you have a cross-London interchange as the recommended interchange time is extremely long), an Advance ticket is not for you.
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Going back to the original topic, would you expect to have to board a bus 2 minutes early?

Buses do not have a dispatch procedure, do not work to a strict timetable (in that, at least outside London, they always wait for everyone to board the bus) and are not the length of an 11-car train.

 

[142056]

I took the Northern Rail 1816 service from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street (got off at Trafford Park). Though the pedant in me would say it was the 1815 service, since the doors were firmly shut at 1815, moving out of the station at 18:15.15. Yes it's probably a miracle that Northern managed to run a train that's not late, but it wasn't fair on the lady who arrived at Platform 5 at 18:15.10 expecting to get on and couldn't.
I've never seen anything about Northern leaving early, has anyone seen otherwise?

 

[gswindale]

Other question is:

Is the train definitely leaving early or are people's watches a little bit slow?

I know of people who deliberately set their watches 5 minutes fast so they leave earlier than they really need to just to make sure they're on time.

Me, I just use a radio controlled watch.

 

[455driver]

I reckon all the people who moan about doors closing early are the type of person that appear in the telly programmes like Airport where they allowed themselves just enough time to get to the airport, got delayed, then kicked off when told they were too late.

Is it really that difficult to get to the station in reasonable time for the train, the
doors closing 2 minutes before departure only happens at the originating station after that its 30 seconds before departure (40 in a few cases). maybe they would like the timetable to be recast so that we can allow for all the "turn up at the last second and hold the door open for my mate, my mates mum/dad/ brother/ cousin etc.

Of course when trains are delayed by people holding doors etc these same people who moan about the doors closing early will then be moaning about missing a (very tight) connection with their dirt cheap/ very restrictive/ book 3 months in advance/ split into 10 bits £5 ticket.
Oh I used to regularly try a -1 minute connection at Twickenham and it worked out about 50% of the time.

 

[D1009]

I think the problem here is that Euston has to cater for many different types of passenger. The commuter from the City going to Milton Keynes will plan his life to the last second. The old lady going to Manchester who finds the system confusing will take longer. Why should the commuter be denied access to the train because others don't know the system?

 

[AlterEgo]

I think the problem here is that Euston has to cater for many different types of passenger. The commuter from the City going to Milton Keynes will plan his life to the last second. The old lady going to Manchester who finds the system confusing will take longer. Why should the commuter be denied access to the train because others don't know the system?

Why can't the commuter be there at least two minutes before? The trains leave at the same time every day!

I'm a commuter and I plan to be at the station at least five minutes beforehand. Doesn't always work out like that, but that's life!

 

[PTF62]

Why can't the commuter be there at least two minutes before?

And waste 15 hours a year?

I'm a commuter and I plan to be at the station at least five minutes beforehand.

Five minutes! I aim to be walking down the steps onto the platform at the same time the train is arriving, so I reach 'my' door at the 9th carriage the moment it stops.

 

[Ascot]

In the last year or so I've started treating long distance trains like airlines in that I turn up with time to have a drink or bite to eat first then wait for the boarding announcement. Gave up rushing.


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[richw]

I always aim 10-15 mins early, living in cornwall we only see a train every hour or so, being seconds late and missing it isn't a worthwhile risk. Then don't find myself rushed or stressed

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[gswindale]

And waste 15 hours a year?



Five minutes! I aim to be walking down the steps onto the platform at the same time the train is arriving, so I reach 'my' door at the 9th carriage the moment it stops.

It's not wasting 15 hours. By being more sensible about it, you will keep in better health and therefore more than make up those hours by not being off work with a stress related illness (I assume you're referring to work hours being wasted).

Having worked in London for a while, I clearly remember the rush to try and get on a sensible train home. It really wasn't worth it though as I ended up more irritable due to the journey and the rushing.

If I have to go into London now; everyone knows tgat I won't be in the office at 9 and I will leave before 5:30. It is all about getting the work/life balance correct which many people forget about in their daily grind.

 

[PTF62]

If I have to go into London now; everyone knows tgat I won't be in the office at 9 and I will leave before 5:30.

It must be nice to be able to work part time. Unfortunately some of us cannot.

 

[gswindale]

It must be nice to be able to work part time. Unfortunately some of us cannot.

I never said anything about working part time!

 

[Statto]

Whilst i can except passengers getting delayed on a connecting service, or stuck in Traffic ecc, is it so hard not to be at the Station at least 15-30 min before the train departs, if your not familiar with the station.

Regular passengers will have it down to fine detail, train times ecc, & regular passengers will know when boarding gates close.

 

[Tringonometry]

I never said anything about working part time!

Quite. When I was an office-wallah my mantra was "if you need to work twice as many hours as me you're clearly only half as good".

Am I the only one who thinks "idiots!" when some politician wobbles on about "hard-working families"?

 

[WelshBluebird]

The problem with the railways is that services are so varied.

The comparison with buses and aeroplanes are not valid, because both of those are not valid (Ie buses generally don't run strictly to the timetable and wait for people people to board, while aeroplanes do run to a strict timetable and generally don't wait for people).
So as people have already said, while you would expect to be able to board a 13.05 bus at 13.05 (or maybe a tad later in reality), you would not expect to board a 13.05 flight at 13.05.

With the railways, it is very different as it simply depends on the service you get. For branch lines, and even less busy mainlines, it is a case of you can turn up at 13.05 to get on the 13.05 departure. Obviously at larger stations, on busier services, then you can't do that.