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Not so Greater Anglia
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SprinterMan
Established Member
dk1
Veteran Member
If Boris gets his way i wouldn't rule out a fleet of 378 type trains on WA inner suburban. Money can then be thrown at it.
Stations are currently being repaintned over in the same colours, or in some cases, grey. About half the stations on the inner suburban WA side have been done, stoke newington appears at the moment to be recieving redone platform work also.
SprinterMan
Established Member
Thus proving my point that a decent refurb could keep them going for many more years. The problem is they'd likely need to be taken out of service for a while to do a proper job, and GA (and whoever takes over) probably won't be able to do that given how few spares they have.
Can Bombardier still make 378s, or are they like the 377s and effectively 'out of print' meaning any new build would be LIKE the 377 or 378s. In fact, isn't the 379 a bit of a hybrid too?
Broadside
Member
Quite. As a daily user of the GE route I quite enjoy the relative luxury of the occasional 360. The 321s feel like they would go on forever and any faults can be fixed with a big hammer
just a shame about the back-crippling low seating and needing to be doing about a ton before any air gets in the windows.Any TOC willing to invest in a complete rip-out and refurb will have a train that will last and last IMHO.
BTW on the 321s are the funny little blowers in the vestibules near the driving ends (that's where I've seen them) a recent addition? Noticed an audible fan noise last night coming from the ceiling that I'd not heard before.
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The 321's are not fit for purpose in the 21st century on the GEML. They never reach there maximum speed and with the volume of traffic especially in the peak delays will always happen as these units are passed it. The only hope is when the next long term franchise happens the 321's, 317's and 315's are retired ASAP and new rolling stock introduced.
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That noise I guess is the drivers Air con,
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Quite. As a daily user of the GE route I quite enjoy the relative luxury of the occasional 360. The 321s feel like they would go on forever and any faults can be fixed with a big hammer
Any TOC willing to invest in a complete rip-out and refurb will have a train that will last and last IMHO.
BTW on the 321s are the funny little blowers in the vestibules near the driving ends (that's where I've seen them) a recent addition? Noticed an audible fan noise last night coming from the ceiling that I'd not heard before.
That noise I guess is the drivers Air con,
The 321's are not fit for purpose in the 21st century on the GEML. They never reach there maximum speed and with the volume of traffic especially in the peak delays will always happen as these units are passed it. The only hope is when the next long term franchise happens the 321's, 317's and 315's are retired ASAP and new rolling stock introduced.
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That noise I guess is the drivers Air con,
Could not agree more! If the driver can have aircon why cant the poor back crippled passengers in the tiny old knackered seats built for pygmies?
Aircon is a must for any train being used in the South east of England - most 321s sit in the sidings all day heating up in the summer.....and when you get on them in the evening peak BANG! You might as well be travelling in an oven....
Move them up North, give them a proper mid life refurb (which is 4 years overdue anyway according to an earlier post) where aircon is not a necessity!
MidnightFlyer
Veteran Member
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What absolute balderdash. The South seems warmer, yes, however at times the North is just as warm if not warmer. You can't cascade and modify units on the basis that 'it's colder up Norf, so they don't need it'!
Aictos
Established Member
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- 28 Apr 2009
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- 10,403
Quite agree, nothing wrong with the rolling stock in use by Greater Anglia that a decent refurbishment couldn't resolve like what South West Trains did with their Class 455s or how Southern refurbished their Class 313s.
To add air conditioning to the fleet then remove it upon being cascaded elsewhere like Northern England because they don't suffer from the heat as much is sheer stupidity!
Again, there is nothing wrong with the rolling stock in use by Greater Anglia - There are more pressing issues that need to be resolved such as the overcrowding on the Birmingham to Stansted route which isn't helped by Cross Country having to use 2 car DMUs on a route which is 161 miles long while Greater Anglia use 3 car DMUs on Ipswich to Peterborough services which is only 83 miles.
Why should the GEML get new stock first, there are other areas which deserve newer or refurbished rolling stock first, the DfT has got the 14X replacement question to think about first before replacing perfectly usable trains simply because people think they're outdated!
I like to see 6 car trains between Liverpool and Nottingham with 3 car trains continuing to Norwich as well as 4 car trains between Birmingham and Stansted but in reality that's not going to happen now.
Ever sat at the front of a bus (especially upstairs). Not a lot of airflow coming through the front is there?
Inside the train, you have windows and the air flows back. Sure, not as good as aircon, but at least the airflow has a cooling effect when you're moving.
Given the driver needs to be alert and comfortable, I don't have any problem with a train that doesn't have aircon by design (too old, most likely) having it retrofitted for the driver.
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Aircon has many other benefits too. It stops the windows misting up and reduces the humidity, which helps in the winter too when everything would get very damp.
because whilst people use age as a guide to length of life, they do not consider the actual use of the units. For 24 plus years these units have been thrashed up and down the GE mainline at 90 plus mph everyday carrying huge amounts of commuters and are becoming increasingly unreliable. You simply cannot compare them to a few pacers toddling around from town to town....yes the pacers need replacing and were a horrible idea that never should have graced the railways BUT they take nowhere near the punishment that the 321s have suffered over the past 24 plus years! There comes a point where they need to be put out to pasture somewhere where the daily demands and reliability requirement are less of a strain. It may be common thought that an EMU lasts 35 years but the way these things have been trashed and NOT looked after properly it has taken at least 10 years off their shelf life!
If not new then strip them back to bare metal and do a "455" but given the age and the fact the their are 96 units to fully refurb it would be easier and cheaper IN THE LONG RUN to buy a new fleet aka SWT model which includes an AC 444 variant for Norwich trains. Refurbing them properly will take time and their simply aren't the units to spare from the fleet day to day to get it done quickly. They are more than 3/4s of the way through their prime working life and failures are more and more frequent - no refurb will solve that! And when one sits down in the middle of the rush hour (as they increasingly do and will get worse) then chaos for tens of thousands of people ensues.......
This is a vital line ferrying in people to the city appx 30,000 every single day on the 321s/360s - these people (like me) pay through the nose for cramped seats that are only 6 inches from the ground and cause incredible back ache after 10 mins of sitting in them. We all know that NX ran them into the ground and they are way overdue for overhaul but the increasing reliability issues and PPC figures going up only show this situation is going one way.....down!
The volumes of people on this line (compared to the other you mention) and the importance of the city of london to this country mean it should take priority! (Wait for the roars of disapproval from the north)
A new fleet on the SWT model is required! (including the 317s and 315s)
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forgot to add that the line is one of the top 3 in the country for piling profits back to the Dft so why should we pay for everyone else to have shiny new reliable air conditioned trains?
Wow, you really hate the 321s don't you?!
The FCC ones are clean and seem to have many years left in them. I don't find the seats uncomfortable either, although I will declare that about 50% of the time I use them, I am in first class.
I am convinced a decent refresh will be just fine for another 5-10 years. I don't think they're unreliable either, as I'm sure they've won a Golden spanner award at least once, possibly more.
You do also seem to have a jaded view of how other people travel and their importance. There are loads of Pacers and many covering long distances, with serious accessibility, and possibly safety, issues that are more important than your opinion of the seats.
The FCC ones are clean and seem to have many years left in them. I don't find the seats uncomfortable either, although I will declare that about 50% of the time I use them, I am in first class.
I am convinced a decent refresh will be just fine for another 5-10 years. I don't think they're unreliable either, as I'm sure they've won a Golden spanner award at least once, possibly more.
You do also seem to have a jaded view of how other people travel and their importance. There are loads of Pacers and many covering long distances, with serious accessibility, and possibly safety, issues that are more important than your opinion of the seats.
er no.....and you add another 29,000 odd people to that list! there maybe some deluded people out there who know no better but that is their look out! Put them on a SWT 450/444, Southern 377, an LM 350 or even a GA 360 (although they are filthy) and they may change their minds!
and no I dont think they have ever won the golden spanner....far from it! They are failing on a far more regular basis now and isnt it great that Ruud says "he has no ideas" how to make them better!
It is simple Ruud, they are old, in the twilight of their frontline service years and are not fit for purpose! The refurb option for the next franchise is simply not viable.....as you say yourself it MAY make them useful for another 5-10 years but consider this!
Franchise relet in 2 years - trains then 26 years old and even more unreliable - refurb plans take 1 year to get contracts / specs sorted out - trains 27 years old and even more unreliable - it would take 3-4 years to refurb the fleet PROPERLY - trains then 30 plus years old!
As I said the refurb idea is good in theory but the timing, in my opinion, is against it! And again bear in mind the punishment these things take everyday!!!
But here is a point - if LM get a new fleet and GAs is far older then why should we not get one???????????
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and LM carry far less passengers than GA and the units are not subjected to the thrashing the GAs ones get!!!!!
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dont disagree with drivers aircon - absolute pre requesite in my opinion!
as for the airflow....rubbish! very very little air gets into these ovens during an hour long journey trust me!!!!!
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
When the 321's were introduced to Bletchley back in the day - there was an experimental air con fitment to the 1st class on one unit at Chris Greens request. Not a success , however that was 20 years ago....
If you could get 321's to regenerate (which you apparently can) , + a refurb , plus air con + a good mechanical overhaul. A good unit.
I was only muttering to my wife today on a trip to London how presentable (if hot) - the LUL D stock units are .....and they are planned to be replaced (i.e scrapped!) - another 10 years in them I reckon , as well as the trusty 73 stock.
There was a Dept of Transport strapline that a refurbished train is as good as a new train - mind you they were referring to facelifted 4-EPB units circa 1987 !!!
If you could get 321's to regenerate (which you apparently can) , + a refurb , plus air con + a good mechanical overhaul. A good unit.
I was only muttering to my wife today on a trip to London how presentable (if hot) - the LUL D stock units are .....and they are planned to be replaced (i.e scrapped!) - another 10 years in them I reckon , as well as the trusty 73 stock.
There was a Dept of Transport strapline that a refurbished train is as good as a new train - mind you they were referring to facelifted 4-EPB units circa 1987 !!!
I totally disagree that the 321s are unfit for purpose. My 5-10 year comment was an opinion, not an accurate statement of their life.
Ideally they'd be stripped out completely and totally refurbished and go on for many more years.
Ideally they'd be stripped out completely and totally refurbished and go on for many more years.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
and as its now the weekend and there is an entire day of it lef might I propose Ginger takes a strole down to a local automotive showroom where he will find a cumfortable leather seat, air conditioning, sound system, satnav and endless happy hours on the road (in the traffic) only a signature away. The right honerable gentleman obviously objects so greatly to the high qualitty BR built rollingstock that his admittedly pricy season permits him to ride in then driving or taking the bus seams to me a great option.
Oh and by the way, people north of Birmingham are very greatfull for our air con and Im sure when the wires go up would be equally greatfull for your 90 plus 321s, refurbished or otherwise!
Oh and by the way, people north of Birmingham are very greatfull for our air con and Im sure when the wires go up would be equally greatfull for your 90 plus 321s, refurbished or otherwise!
In reality, I don't think we'll get 5 - 10 years out of the 321s as I'm pretty sure Greater Anglia have already hinted at replacing all of the fleet. Maybe a small fleet will be kept as backup. However, the new refreshed 321s which will be completed by the end of the year. They do look very swish and show GA care about improving within their tight boundaries. Yes, we'd all like air-con (in likeness to the new S-Stock which are very effective!) and lots of space. In comparison to the Class 165/168s I've been on, they're horrible in comparison. There's a feel to the 321s that they were built to last.
I just hope we don't get anything like the 360s to replace them. Air-con is pointless, the seats are even smaller and it just feels more cramped. To get round the increasing passengers issue, I'm unsure. I don't think anyone past Colchester would want to stand on every journey for the sake of cramming in more stand room. This may not be the case though if you look at the economy on a pessimistic vantage point if more jobs disappear in London and elsewhere on that line.
Yes, there's a long way to go; but there's no point getting angry over issues that were left by NXEA to do with the track quality and extremely poor customer service. I'm hoping the government pushes emphasis on the GEML to be top priority to improve. It's a shame there's only a single bi-directional line past Shenfield as extra lines would resolve capacity issues and allow more trains to get through, even with problems on specific routes.
ah bless! alas I have no other choice but will always choose the rail over the car! Love the railways....just sad at the terrible extent that we have been milked on the GE mainline to pay for everyone else to have such wonderful trains and services!
And by the way, if you are such a fan of the 90s and 321s YOU ARE TRUELY WELCOME TO THEM!!!!!!! If you have the misfortune to get them then dont moan about about how reliable they are when they constantly fail on you!
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from the comments Ruud has made he is only thinking of replacing the 90s/MKIIIs...........
and as I said earlier when talking about the timelines/costs for full 321 refurb, then it clearly shows he has not got a clue!!!!!
Well done Ruud!
Blindtraveler
Established Member
waw! Regardless of wheather its his to offfer or not I do believe the dreams of so many commuters in north have come true! Now come on NR, lets get those wires up and the 321s can run Manchester electric runs, with some more to Leeds and the 90s and MK3s will be a godsend on Scotland Manchester!!
Im sure too that ever small bus opperater in your area will be deligted to do rail replacements till your new shiny 380s or whatever are ordered, built, delivered, modiffied multiple times and finally put into service
i][/i]
As a GA customer, I don't personally think we need new trains - in my opinion the 321's are rugged and comfortable enough, and despite the neglect by NX still they soldier on day in day out which is a testament to BREL engineering to be honest. Preferably each set would be sent to Doncaster in turn and be stripped back to the bare metal to sort out an corrosion issues and also have a full mechanical overhaul along with a bogie overhaul and new seats, carpets and panelling. These sets can easily be life-extended, and ideally they should have at least another 30 years ahead of them - alas its not going to happen anytime soon, but I would prefer retention of 321's and some form of cascade to move the 360's away and receive 321's in return, would be a lot more sensible and cheaper than purchasing a new fleet of Desiro's or Electrostar's.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
agree with every bit of that apart from the 360s, you can keep them, I cant find any love for diziros
captainbigun
Member
- Joined
- 3 May 2009
- Messages
- 977
You could get them to regen. After you'd replaced all of the power and control equipment. Whilst you're at it you may as well fit inverter drive and AC motors. For proper air con you'd need a new transformer. The issue is, all of this investment is then going to be let down by the body shells.
It's no secret the Mk3s have a real issue with corrosion, the units of the same era are no different.
Fiddling around the edges buys a bit of time, at what cost. Best bet is a new and uniform fleet, preferably not from the bunch in Derby who's owners seem not to be interested in building trains. The Siemens product is the best on paper and the cheapest to boot.
Give me a 360 any day over a 321 - and I have the experience of both classes everyday since the 360s were introduced! Tonight was a case in point, E-lines broken at Ilford. Dusty bins soon become boiling hot unless you are moving sufficiently fast to get some air in.
I think new trains are probably inevitable, but do think that the interior of a 321 looks more rugged and long lasting than a 360. When I went on a relatively new 360 when FGE got them, they already looked worn in places. Maybe the colour scheme didn't help (I think much the same with the Southern 377 interiors) but I do think it's actually fair to say that we don't build 'em like we used to.
Nevertheless, there are parts of the UK that probably need new fleets before GA. If we didn't have the Thameslink project finally happening, I'd have even said that we could continue to survive with the 319s - but it is happening and demand requires a lot of new stock.
Nevertheless, there are parts of the UK that probably need new fleets before GA. If we didn't have the Thameslink project finally happening, I'd have even said that we could continue to survive with the 319s - but it is happening and demand requires a lot of new stock.
iphone76
Member
I had a nice hour long sauna session on a GA 321 tonight due to the signal issues at Ilford. I hate to use them as an excuse, but GA are driving me to drink as I had to have a pint when I got off the train just to cool down and chill out.
ChristopherJ
Member
Do GA have any plans to refurbish the 360 Desiros?
In all honesty, for such a modern train, they look very tatty in the undercoat purple that NXEA applied to the fleet - plus the interior spec is still from the First Group era with purple carpet and seat fabric, which expired two franchises ago...
The previous fGE livery looked wonderful on the fleet.
The 360s are another example of the laziness of NX Group - they relivery one train in to corporate livery (360115) and then forget the rest...
In all honesty, for such a modern train, they look very tatty in the undercoat purple that NXEA applied to the fleet - plus the interior spec is still from the First Group era with purple carpet and seat fabric, which expired two franchises ago...
The previous fGE livery looked wonderful on the fleet.
The 360s are another example of the laziness of NX Group - they relivery one train in to corporate livery (360115) and then forget the rest...
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O L Leigh
Established Member
The FGE livery you so admire is mostly stickers. The plain blue with white doors is what is left over once you peel all the stickers off.
I happen to think it doesn't look too bad. Very retro.
O L Leigh
I happen to think it doesn't look too bad. Very retro.
O L Leigh
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