FirstGroup vies with Virgin in west coast rail bidding war

[YorkshireRider]

The Gruan have called it for First:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/08/firstgroup-rail-transport?CMP=twt_fd

Wonder if they read my post?...

The last part about the cross default is a surprise, i would have thought it would be a given, not just something they are thinking about. If First dont want it in the agreement then it suggests they have doubts themselves about their own bid.

 

[Wath Yard]

If First dont want it in the agreement then it suggests they have doubts themselves about their own bid.

Not really. If you were offered an unsecured loan would you offer the deeds to your house anyway?

The DfT has to tread carefully. There are only a small number of companies capable (if that is the word!) of running TOCs. They can't afford to ruin them.

 

[ainsworth74]

I speak as a long-suffering victim of First Capital Connect and have the dry-cleaning bills to prove it.

And speaking as someone who used TPE regularly and has used Scotrail, Hull Trains and FGW a number of times I've experienced nearly always clean trains both internally and externally, with a well maintained livery, clean/unsmelly toilets and friendly/professional/well presented staff. In fact I don't think I've ever had a bad experience on a First operated TOC. You can't judge the entire company on the basis of FCC.

I also fear for the mechanical condition of the 390s should First's blacksmiths get their hands on them.

Well bearing in mind that the maintenance contract is with Alstom and that the people maintaining them aren't going to be changing I'm not too worried about the 390s.

 

[LE Greys]

And speaking as someone who used TPE regularly and has used Scotrail, Hull Trains and FGW a number of times I've experienced nearly always clean trains both internally and externally, with a well maintained livery, clean/unsmelly toilets and friendly/professional/well presented staff. In fact I don't think I've ever had a bad experience on a First operated TOC. You can't judge the entire company on the basis of FCC.

Or indeed FCC on the basis of Thameslink. Although some of the GN stock is well past its sell-by date, in general the trains are clean and run to time with few problems just as they did under WAGN and NSE. You do get the odd one that's in a state, but that happens everywhere.

 

[HSTEd]

There was a phase when it seemed that any franchises that went to First seemed to end up with styrofoam cups in place of crockery.

 

[krisk]

Let's see.....

 

[Zoe]

Let's see.....

You've said that a few times. I'm not sure if you know something no-one else on this thread does but if Virgin have actually won then maybe that will put an end to people assuming a certain company has won before the annoucement is made.

 

[Gareth]

I've had a few attempts, but there's no simple term/phrase that sums up "London, West Midlands, Holyhead, Manchester and Glasgow" (and if you do mention Manchester then people in Liverpool will complain that you are ignoring them).

Well quite. Why Liverpool should be left off your long-winded geographic name would raise a few eyebrows; certainly (ignoring how massively big & important Manchester is in the railworld) how it seems appropriate to mention Holyhead, a much smaller and more peripheral town in relation to the franchise.



First Intercity anyone?

 

[Wath Yard]

Krisk appears to be a member of VT onboard staff who wants to stay an employee of Virgin. I don't think we need to spend too much time speculating whether he/she has inside information.

 

[jon0844]

You can't judge the entire company on the basis of FCC.

Especially considering FCC is basically two companies - Thameslink and Great Northern. The latter have a fleet of trains kept very clean and I've never had any problems, bar the odd late night train which has been destroyed by passengers on its incoming journey (food and drink, or puke, all over the place) and is sent back out without cleaning after 10-11pm.

On the TL side, the shortage of stock must make it hard to keep the stock maintained and cleaned, especially when trains were left stranded in odd places due to the night time blockades (so are probably now a lot cleaner since that work ended). Thameslink users have had to suffer a lot due to the construction work and not enough trains (and the delay to getting the 377/5s which halted the improvement works to a lot of the 319 fleet which still don't appear to have been possible) and in many of these cases - you have to accept that ANY operator would have suffered the same problems. FCC has, for example, been able to secure more trains for use on the GN side with relative ease and upgraded ALL of the trains.

In other words, if my other experiences of First-run services (like FGW or even the Heathrow services) are anything to go by, I think the trains will be kept perfectly clean and First will continue to pay people to travel around with PDAs to record how well they're being kept clean.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Not really. If you were offered an unsecured loan would you offer the deeds to your house anyway?

The DfT has to tread carefully. There are only a small number of companies capable (if that is the word!) of running TOCs. They can't afford to ruin them.

Why would they be ruining them? If the dft is so sure the bid adds up, which of course it surely must be if it is to give First the win and First is also so sure its bid adds up, then its all no problem and putting in the clause would just give that bit of extra security for the taxpayer.

 

[ainsworth74]

bar the odd late night train which has been destroyed by passengers on its incoming journey (food and drink, or puke, all over the place) and is sent back out without cleaning after 10-11pm.

And of course, with the services being DOO there's a chance that no one's actually noticed that there is a problem with the interior and if no one tells the driver or station staff...

Have to say I'm surprised that when people spot something wrong with the train they don't tell anyone! I've done it a couple of times before and the crew have always been very appreciative.

 

[krisk]

I'm not given any further info than people here. Some things that have been said to me I can not relay on here as it would be a breach of confidently.

I go off hunches and gut feeling, that's all. I know what outcome I would like and that is to see the WC develop and grow even bigger and better.

 

[northernrail2009]

if First gets it what happens to the likes of the Virgin only fares from Macclesfield to Manchester?

thats one of the reasons why im hoping Virgin keep it as there virgin own fares are a lot cheaper then the normal fares.

 

[Class377/5]

Especially considering FCC is basically two companies - Thameslink and Great Northern. The latter have a fleet of trains kept very clean and I've never had any problems, bar the odd late night train which has been destroyed by passengers on its incoming journey (food and drink, or puke, all over the place) and is sent back out without cleaning after 10-11pm.

On the TL side, the shortage of stock must make it hard to keep the stock maintained and cleaned, especially when trains were left stranded in odd places due to the night time blockades (so are probably now a lot cleaner since that work ended). Thameslink users have had to suffer a lot due to the construction work and not enough trains (and the delay to getting the 377/5s which halted the improvement works to a lot of the 319 fleet which still don't appear to have been possible) and in many of these cases - you have to accept that ANY operator would have suffered the same problems. FCC has, for example, been able to secure more trains for use on the GN side with relative ease and upgraded ALL of the trains.

In other words, if my other experiences of First-run services (like FGW or even the Heathrow services) are anything to go by, I think the trains will be kept perfectly clean and First will continue to pay people to travel around with PDAs to record how well they're being kept clean.

The plan in the franchise bid was the 319's to start being withdrawn in 2013 so there was no major works planned on this basis. Fact the new 700's are delayed can't change a franchise plan afterwards easily.

And as you say the late 377's saw the 319's run into the ground to give a train service. Losing the ability to check a large number of your fleet overnight when issues occur doesn't help and neither does your sole depot being one end of the entire route but you can only access mon-fri daytime, ie when it's a lot busier!

Not to mention that large volume of issues are intrastructure relating to the TLP, not something a TOC could have changed.

 

[Simon11]

if First gets it what happens to the likes of the Virgin only fares from Macclesfield to Manchester?

thats one of the reasons why im hoping Virgin keep it as there virgin own fares are a lot cheaper then the normal fares.

If first do the maths, they will keep the dedicated fares and they become first only fares.....

 

[Masboroughlad]

I so hope First don't get. I'd rather Virgin keep it.

 

[jon0844]

Have to say I'm surprised that when people spot something wrong with the train they don't tell anyone! I've done it a couple of times before and the crew have always been very appreciative.

I would normally, but many trains into KGX at night can be late (for a variety of reasons, quite often due to passenger actions) and so the trains are turned far too quickly for any cleaning to be done.

I'm not sure any TOC (bar an Intercity operator) would hold a train to remove rubbish and other 'liquids' before sending it back out.

However, it's worth noting that many trains are cleaned (well emptied of rubbish) at King's Cross - but not very late, whereby there's only a skeleton staff left on the platform to dispatch trains.

 

[Pugwash]

It looks like the passenger is going to get screwed again whilst the government tries to recover money spent by Railtrack on the west coast upgrade.

 

[All Line Rover]

If first do the maths, they will keep the dedicated fares and they become first only fares.....

Of course. The fares have been in place for a number of years so Virgin are clearly quite happy with the additional revenue they are generating. There's no valid reason why First would remove them, unless they fancy giving more money to Northern and CrossCountry!

 

[Skymonster]

IMHO the railways need a high-profile brand like Virgin... OK, they've been far from perfect but I do give some of the credit for raising the profile and acceptability (especially in the business community) of long-distance rail travel to Virgin and SRB. Whilst the passengers may have stayed on because of better rolling stock, faster journeys, more fequent services and a better service I believe Virgin's brand has gone some way to persuading people to try rail... And with the growth that's needed during the next franchise, it'll need something like that again.

Unfortunately, rightly or wrongly First doesn't have quite the same "glamour" name as Virgin. First might be able to build on where Virgin are now, but they're not a company that generates lots of noise and interest in the public, and I still think the railways needs a long distance operator that's got a higher profile. Of course, the problem now is that if the reports that Virgin's bid has fallen short of First's are correct, if they go with Virgin there's going to be some folks asking why the government didn't maximise the take in these hard times...

Andy

 

[calc7]

IMHO the railways need a high-profile brand like Virgin... OK, they've been far from perfect but I do give some of the credit for raising the profile and acceptability (especially in the business community) of long-distance rail travel to Virgin and SRB. Whilst the passengers may have stayed on because of better rolling stock, faster journeys, more fequent services and a better service I believe Virgin's brand has gone some way to persuading people to try rail... And with the growth that's needed during the next franchise, it'll need something like that again.

Unfortunately, rightly or wrongly First doesn't have quite the same "glamour" name as Virgin. First might be able to build on where Virgin are now, but they're not a company that generates lots of noise and interest in the public, and I still think the railways needs a long distance operator that's got a higher profile. Of course, the problem now is that if the reports that Virgin's bid has fallen short of First's are correct, if they go with Virgin there's going to be some folks asking why the government didn't maximise the take in these hard times...

Andy

Hear hear - just look at users on VT's Twitter account. There is a certian excitement amongst young people about travelling on a Virgin train.

 

[krisk]

Love all the media speculation, its simple, no one knows until Tuesday.

 

[Morgsie]

There would be serious questions if First wins regarding Market dominance. I hope Justine Greening and Theresa Villiers will make the right decision of awarding Virgin the Franchise and not sub-combing to Gideon's demands and blackmail

 

[Ferret]

Love all the media speculation, its simple, no one knows until Tuesday.

Hmmmmm, somebody knew Arriva had won XC long before that was revealed. Somebody in the Snivel Service has a loose tongue....

 

[Morgsie]

Theoretically Franchises are kept under lock and key but realistically someone leaks the information

 

[87015]

Krisk, what makes you think Virgin will be so much better than First? The VT bid is also massive and there will have to be cuts and revenue increases left, right and centre regardless of the colour of the train. Given how VT have already pulled the rug on some staff who had been set up "for the new franchise" I hope you won't be sent down a similar path after all your flag-waving...

 

[jon0844]

The RIGHT bid must be chosen. There are laws in place that would (should) stop someone ignoring the content of the bids and just picking the one they fancy, or has done the most lobbying. In fact, that would be corruption and would land everyone in deep water.

Just like Bombardier not winning contracts, if it's a case of Virgin not putting in a good enough bid, it will be its own fault. And while First may have overbid just to buy the franchise, we can't all sit here and automatically assume it will fail.

I have more faith in First than National Express, but even National Express may come back now that it has Elaine Holt working on future bids. I am sure she will have gone there to give advice on where they've gone wrong before.

I do agree that it would be a shame to lose Virgin on the railway but that's sadly the way franchising works.

 

[Retorus]

Virgin might only be gone for a year anyway, surely they'd put everything into trying to get East Coast if they lose this?

 

[Morgsie]

There is a possibility that First may not get the Greater Western Franchise if they get the ICWC Franchise