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FirstGroup vies with Virgin in west coast rail bidding war

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The Ham

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I think that's a given. Open stations and guards wandering up the train asking to see tickets from x, y and z might work on a service run by a Pacer with 5 or 6 passengers boarding at each station, but it isn't really appropriate for InterCity TOCs. Gates, or more rigorous ticket inspections on the trains will happen. I'd prefer the latter but expect the former.

Gates at stations provide other benefits other than just revnue protection. For instance there is a station side member of staff to man them (often they can duel role as train dispacher at quieter times/stations) so there is someone to ask questions. Also I've seen them sell tickets (often only taking card payments, but that is less of a problem these days) it means that the queues for the ticket office can move quicker and means that tickets can be purchased from a person when normally the ticket office is closed, as well as the percived safety impications.

There are problems with them, like at some stations secondary exits get closed and it can cause congestion when a lot of people want to exit at the same time, but overall I would welcome them.
 
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Sammy h

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Ok, a little off topic and getting ahead of myself a bit here.....

What happens in the middle of September when the December advance tickets are due to come out? Will there be no advance tickets or will First get ahead of the game and make them available?

Also, what about ticket refunds. Passenger buys a ticket in November for a train in January, doesn't travel and requires a refund. I presume Virgin would have to honour that refund?

This could get confusing :p
 

David10

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Is the famous moderation of competition clause being removed from the new Franchise?
Gone already, expired with the original franchise in March.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, what about ticket refunds. Passenger buys a ticket in November for a train in January, doesn't travel and requires a refund. I presume Virgin would have to honour that refund?
The refund process will remain unchanged. The booking system will behind the scenes allocate revenue correctly between First and Virgin.
 

ANorthernGuard

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There has to be some middle ground between the "race to the bottom" that you suggest and a TOC that employs eight hundred catering staff (with an average employee wage of £30,000 over the whole franchise)?

So get rid of say 1 or 2 1st class carriages and convert them into standard, that would increase revenue and you lose say 2 members of staff, that has to be better then the mass cull that Farce group will probably do (I remember FNW days and still have nightmares about the green check uniform) I am dreading the new Northern Franchise if First get that.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Have Virgin management and Branson been too busy whining to watch any of the Olympics? I know Branson is a driven, winner but is it too much to ask for him to just shrug his shoulders, accept losing and walk away with a scrap of dignity?

Branson is no mug.
Against the loss of "face" by exiting rail, he might well moan and groan just like he always does about BA and Heathrow slots.
But he is also under pressure to introduce domestic air services from Heathrow to Edinburgh/Aberdeen to replace services once run by BMI (the put up or shut up argument).
Losing WC rail would allow him to do that without competition issues.
There is also the Stagecoach shareholding to worry about.

Any action will need to be agreed with Souter who is currently bidding for GW and will not want a fight with DfT.
The UK is about to lose its only publicly-recognised rail brand.
 

Aictos

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I think this is bad sad news for many reasons.....

Virgin have made a good job of West Coast overall. I do hope they will be given a chance with East Coast. Will be sad to see such a innovative, customer focussed company no longer running anytrains on the network. XC has been ruined by Arriva - I am sure that West Coast will soon go the same way under first.

Scotrail deteriorated under First. Transpennine Express is an overcrowded, overpriced railway. Similar for Great Western.

I do wonder whether VT will walk away from the rail industry. Sad that we will have nothing but former bus companies running the majority of the network.

And then, much of the West Coast will be dominated by First - I am surprised this will be allowed - West Coast, TPE and Scotrail.

Sad times for the railways to come.

Just hope First don't get GW and EC.

I disagree fully, First have actually turned the Great Western franchise into the success story it is today and they have introduced more trains meaning more bums on seats.

TPE do well, if anything it was the fault of the SRA of not taking up the fourth coach option and the DfT for not supplying extra trains for the Manchester to Scotland services that TPE got from Virgin.

As to Scotrail, thanks to Transport Scotland they've introduced the class 380s plus reopened lines which have done well if anything First has actually made the above franchises better.

As its been said before, it's a myth that groups can't own neighbouring franchises: people seem to forget that National Express used to run WAGN, Central Trains and Midland Mainline but nothing gets said about that :roll:

When Virgin ran both Cross Country and West Coast, although they were legally and operationally separate, they were both marketed as a single brand.

Anyway, how do people know for sure that First is going to wreck the West Coast, they don't! Virgin ain't whiter then white and the sooner some people realise this, the better!
 

Bakerbloke

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I'm a big fan of Virgin on the customer service front but over recent years I feel I have been priced out of using their services - much like xcountry and it annoys me to see so many empty first class seats - I don't like seeing trains pull fresh air (except for pacers as they go faster with no passengers).
 

tbtc

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I do wonder whether VT will walk away from the rail industry. Sad that we will have nothing but former bus companies running the majority of the network

If Virgin were such a good franchise then you do realise that Stagecoach had half of the franchise?

And what about DB (who run XC, Wales & Borders and Chiltern), Keolis (Southern, Southeastern, London Midland franchises and Transpennine Express), Abellio (Greater Anglia, Northern Rail and Merseyrail), MRT (LOROL)?

You could argue that there are more "train" companies running TOCs nowadays than before?

I know Branson is a driven, winner but is it too much to ask for him to just shrug his shoulders, accept losing and walk away with a scrap of dignity?

Yes.

Expect the pram to be well and truly empty by Tuesday morning.

And me too! NX might be trying to flourish under what is essentially ex First Group / Stagecoach / Virgin management, but at the end of the day they'll still be National Express - So expect cost cutting sneaking everywhere including greater use of vinyls and bodge job repairs - And i still can't forgive them for both the fiascos of East Coast and 'ONE' / National Express East Anglia

Yet National Express did a great job on ScotRail and Midland Mainline and seem to be doing rather well on C2C.

Many companies who've run more than one franchise have had mixed results - National Express aren't unique.

I do wonder if a timetable recast could merge the wolverhampton terminator with the Birmingham-Scotland trains and thus save running an extra train per hour between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

I know its a tiny tiny drop in the ocean... but every little helps?

It's a busy route and the fewer trains ICWC run between Brum and Wolves the smaller share of the revenue they will receive, so it wouldn't make commercial sense.

It will depend on the minimum number of services the TOC is required to operate between the 2 destinations. Some Virgin services effectively operate this way with a London-Birmingham service then forming a Birmingham-Scotland and recall the ITT gave the flexibility for bidders to come up with alternative ideas. But agree with 8 other services an hour can't see it being too much of a problem outside the peaks.

I didn't think the DfT would take too kindly to being expected to bankroll the cost of running an extra service on what amounts to an ORCATs raid.

The DfT won't be bankrolling it and the service already exists so it isn't an ORCATs raid. TOCs want to make money, especially when they have to pay the DfT £5-£7 bn over 15 years, so they are not going to just voluntarily give up a slice of a lucrative flow so they can transfer a unit to some other service.

Running a combined London - Birmingham - Wolverhampton - Crewe - Glasgow/ Edinburgh service would free up a train, allowing it to be deployed elsewhere (extending or doubling up other services).

In the scope of the WCML franchise the reduction from 2/8 to 1/7 of the New Street - Wolves ORCATS money (in a subsidised PTE) area might not be that great and could be offset by gains to be made elsewhere.

Plus you'd give Milton Keynes/ Rugby/ Coventry an hourly link to places further north (Crewe/ Wigan/ Preston).

So get rid of say 1 or 2 1st class carriages and convert them into standard, that would increase revenue and you lose say 2 members of staff, that has to be better then the mass cull that Farce group will probably do

That's what I'm talking about - there are surely some practical cuts that could be made to the current over-provision of First Class service (considering the number of people paying full First Price fares seems to be nosediving).

Despite Branson's "mass cull" claims, I'm sure First could amend things to the kind of level that FGW have without going all the way to running Pacers on Euston services (which some on here seem to be suggesting will happen!).
 

The Planner

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I do wonder if a timetable recast could merge the wolverhampton terminator with the Birmingham-Scotland trains and thus save running an extra train per hour between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

I know its a tiny tiny drop in the ocean... but every little helps?

Would mean a bit of a re-cast as the Wolves arrive at New St at xx.45 and the existing Anglo Scot goes at xx.20. It wouldn't actually give you much in the way of capacity as the xx.20 is timed to catch up the preceeding all stations stopper at Wolves and is followed by the Aber/Holyhead.
 

IanXC

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The DfT won't be bankrolling it and the service already exists so it isn't an ORCATs raid. TOCs want to make money, especially when they have to pay the DfT £5-£7 bn over 15 years, so they are not going to just voluntarily give up a slice of a lucrative flow so they can transfer a unit to some other service.

I wonder whether the revenue allocation would still be favourable, in view of the change in rolling stock? 5 car Voyagers (possibly doubled up tho) being replaced by 9 or even 11 car Pendos.
 
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Masbroughlad

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Does anyone know / has rumour got out about any extra routes First have proposed? Eg a Shrewsbury, Blackpool, Rochdale services?
 

Ferret

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But not fixed-term or agency staff.

I really feel for the fixed term and agency staff. The uncertainty must be horrible. Still, we don't know what First plan to do, or if the widespread rumours are actually genuine! It's going to be interesting to see what happens, but I do hope it isn't change for change's sake, when the details of the bids are revealed.
 

Pink

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I hope Virgin, pick up the act and retain the franchise always a nice train company to travel on especially the time's they have made from London to Glasgow
 

krisk

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A lot of people I speak to feel that way.

All will be revealed in under 72 hours.
 

Ferret

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I hope Virgin, pick up the act and retain the franchise always a nice train company to travel on especially the time's they have made from London to Glasgow

Well, one thing I will say is that it's too late for VT to 'pick up their act'. The decision has been made - all that remains is for it to be announced.
 

Zoe

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So despite all the media speculation that First have won, it could still be that Virgin have actually retained the franchise?
 
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Ferret

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So despite all the media speculation that First have won, it could still be that Virgin have actually retained the franchise?

Well, it's believed to be 'accurate speculation' if there is such a thing. It seems somebody from the DfT has leaked the info to the Guardian, which is a bit naughty in my opinion.
 

Wath Yard

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It's going to be interesting to see what happens, but I do hope it isn't change for change's sake, when the details of the bids are revealed.

Although most of the discussion has revolved around staff cuts (fairly understandably), and Virgin's record, I am also looking forward to seeing the details. Will we be getting eVoyagers or will the Voyagers be replaced? Hopefully the announcement will be interesting and not just same trains, same service and some pie in the sky estimate of future passenger and revenue growth.
 

tbtc

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I really feel for the fixed term and agency staff. The uncertainty must be horrible

True, although I guess this goes on at every franchise retender (presumably GA didn't keep all those who were working on NXEA?)

Although most of the discussion has revolved around staff cuts (fairly understandably), and Virgin's record, I am also looking forward to seeing the details. Will we be getting eVoyagers or will the Voyagers be replaced? Hopefully the announcement will be interesting and not just same trains, same service and some pie in the sky estimate of future passenger and revenue growth.

If Virgin don't win, then the winner faces the problem of being criticised for changing things yet at the same time if they don't change things then people will say "what was the point in changing the operator when nothing has changed".

Some bits of Virgin have worked well so don't need changing. Other bits, on the other hand...
 

All Line Rover

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Some bits of Virgin have worked well so don't need changing. Other bits, on the other hand...

Like peak time trains being remarkably quiet, even more so if the Railcard easement didn't exist. I wonder why this is?

Maybe it's because a Manchester to London peak-time Advance single costs £126, no matter how far you book in advance, whereas a Leeds to London peak-time Advance single costs £38.50 if booked sufficiently in advance, including on the "express" (1h 59m) train? Hopefully First will rectify this balance somewhat - they're not going to fill an 11-car Pendolino with no Railcard easement and a minimum price of £126 per ticket!

At the end of the day, is Virgin really a premium service if half the people on board are paying £49 return for a fully flexible ticket, whilst the other half are paying £296? I think not.
 
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Ferret

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Tbtc - I agree with that analysis. And I'd add, that whatever some on here may think, I'll guarantee that Virgin would also have made changes. Maintaining the status quo was not an option for them. Remember, their unsuccessful bid for XC apparently involved removal of the shop on the Voyagers - people criticise Arriva for that, but Virgin would have done the same!

My own speculation is that both FGW and Virgin will indeed want to change the catering, to make it as close to self financing as possible. I suspect they'll try and concentrate on high-margin products on the retail side, so there'll be less choice of what you can buy on board. Whether doing that will be enough to protect the jobs of the CSAs in First Class remains to be seen. Good luck guys, to both the staff I know personally and those I don't.
 

tbtc

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Like peak time trains being remarkably quiet, even more so if the Railcard easement didn't exist. I wonder why this is?

Maybe it's because a Manchester to London peak-time Advance single costs £126, no matter how far you book in advance, whereas a Leeds to London peak-time Advance single costs £38.50 if booked sufficiently in advance, including on the "express" (1h 59m) train? Hopefully First will rectify this balance somewhat - they're not going to fill an 11-car Pendolino with no Railcard easement and a minimum price of £126 per ticket!

At the end of the day, is Virgin really a premium service if half the people on board are paying £49 return for a fully flexible ticket, whilst the other half are paying £296? I think not.

Good points - the current franchise seems to have the idea that its better to have one passenger at a table spending £125 than it is to have four paying a "normal" fare.

This then creates the problems we see at Euston when the first "off peak" service departs and is rammed - significantly busier than most of the "peak" services.

There has to be a better way! (and, FGW seem to have managed the peak/ off peak difference better, to be fair)

Tbtc - I agree with that analysis. And I'd add, that whatever some on here may think, I'll guarantee that Virgin would also have made changes. Maintaining the status quo was not an option for them. Remember, their unsuccessful bid for XC apparently involved removal of the shop on the Voyagers - people criticise Arriva for that, but Virgin would have done the same!

My own speculation is that both FGW and Virgin will indeed want to change the catering, to make it as close to self financing as possible. I suspect they'll try and concentrate on high-margin products on the retail side, so there'll be less choice of what you can buy on board. Whether doing that will be enough to protect the jobs of the CSAs in First Class remains to be seen. Good luck guys, to both the staff I know personally and those I don't.

Despite being a bit of a "lefty", this is like Labour were behaving at/after the last election, blaming every single cut on the Tories yet claiming that they also had plans to make spending cuts too.
 

jimm

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Tbtc - I agree with that analysis. And I'd add, that whatever some on here may think, I'll guarantee that Virgin would also have made changes. Maintaining the status quo was not an option for them. Remember, their unsuccessful bid for XC apparently involved removal of the shop on the Voyagers - people criticise Arriva for that, but Virgin would have done the same!

My own speculation is that both FGW and Virgin will indeed want to change the catering, to make it as close to self financing as possible. I suspect they'll try and concentrate on high-margin products on the retail side, so there'll be less choice of what you can buy on board. Whether doing that will be enough to protect the jobs of the CSAs in First Class remains to be seen. Good luck guys, to both the staff I know personally and those I don't.

I expect the direction the catering is likely to go in if First is the winner will be something looking more like FGW's offer, ie a full sit-down meal on a select handful of long-distance trains, a Travelling Chef-style offer on others (assuming they can work out a way to get proper hot food from the kitchen to standard class on a Pendolino), especially at breakfast time, and buffet/first class trolley on the rest. Not sure whether that would count as less choice - it would be more for standard class - FGW Travelling Chefs can sell out of food on some trains on Saturday mornings, when there are precious few first class seats occupied.
 

350401

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Assuming First have got the Franchise, what is the prevailing opinion on the Railcard easement? Is it definitely going to go? If so, would I be right in thinking that the standard class open fare would be cut / a lot more advance fares introduced for peak trains? Peak time hours re-defined? From my experience, peak time trains are nearly always half empty due to the stupid fares charged - the 06.59 from Wilmslow to Euston is nearly always only a third full in standard.
 

Wath Yard

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I wouldn't bank on fare reductions, however amendments to peak times could be a possibility. FGW didn't place time restrictions on ALRs when EC, Virgin and EMT did, and the GWML into London has the highest overcrowding.
 

WestCoast

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I wonder how First will shake off the Virgin brand attached to WC, which has massive brand recognition among rail travellers and even those who don't use the railways frequently. I still hear XC services referred to as Virgin by some people!

I would prefer unified rail branding among the intercity operators without the brand prefixes (CrossCountry, East Coast, West Coast, Great Western e.t.c), but I am not convinced this will happen across the board.

Rail marketing on the IC routes does attract users who wouldn't automatically choose the railways, it convinces people to upgrade their tickets e.t.c e.t.c. One of Virgin's strong points is its ability to capture that market. Yes, some of it is a case of style over substance, but, hey, that's what marketing is sometimes about.
 
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