FirstGroup vies with Virgin in west coast rail bidding war

[Hazlehead]

Assuming First have got the Franchise, what is the prevailing opinion on the Railcard easement? Is it definitely going to go? If so, would I be right in thinking that the standard class open fare would be cut / a lot more advance fares introduced for peak trains? Peak time hours re-defined? From my experience, peak time trains are nearly always half empty due to the stupid fares charged - the 06.59 from Wilmslow to Euston is nearly always only a third full in standard.

The railcard easement was/is planned to go in December anyway. It was introduced purely to ease overcrowding on Off Peak trains back in the days of 8 car and now 9 car pendos. With a combination of 11 cars and the recession many off peak trains now run around with little over a 100 people on them and most travelling on very much reduced Advance Tickets. Even the first and last off peak trains if run with an 11 car have adequete seats still available

 

[tbtc]

I wonder how First will shake off the Virgin brand attached to WC, which has massive brand recognition among rail travellers and even those who don't use the railways frequently. I still hear XC services referred to as Virgin by some people!

I don't think that First *need* to shake off the Virgin associations - it's not like taking over from a brand like Connex (who had a terrible reputation) - they might go down the XC route of continuing with roughly the same image (but without the VIRGIN wording) for a while.

Cue a lot of complaints on here saying "Why are First still running trains in Virgin silver and red" and a lot of complaints on here saying "why have First wasted lots of money re-painting perfectly good trains in their own corporate livery"

 

[bnm]

Or cue a lot of complaints about the name "Horizon Trains"...

 

[YorkshireRider]

Roger Ford pretty much confirmed on 9 Aug that Virgin have lost http://twitter.com/Captain_Deltic

WTF is Roger Ford??

 

[Wath Yard]

WTF is Roger Ford??

God as far as many rail enthusiasts are concerned, especially those who oppose IEP. (Just to put that into context - I'm not one of his disciples)

 

[anthony263]

WTF is Roger Ford??

Someone who has good knowledge of what is going on in the rail industry and does seem to be pretty much spot on.

Edit beaten to it

 

[YorkshireRider]

Ahhh, i see, well if god says so it must be true

 

[MK Tom]

One of the articles I read said First were unlikely to use 'First West Coast' as the actual brand for the franchise, despite legally registering under that name - does anyone know what else they might call it?

I'm sure livery mockups from fictitious liveries sites will be coming up before long...

 

[anthony263]

One of the articles I read said First were unlikely to use 'First West Coast' as the actual brand for the franchise, despite legally registering under that name - does anyone know what else they might call it?

I'm sure livery mockups from fictitious liveries sites will be coming up before long...

Already been done since I have seen a mock up livery of a pendolino in First livery online somewhere.

 

[tbtc]

Since the silver (Virgin) livery is pretty well known, what about simply replacing the current red bits with FirstGroup pink like the hybrid livery for modern buses - http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6038/6322983593_bd31515913_z.jpg

(or, if you want to be more subtle https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VWoGEARVvFY/TXauI5M3--I/AAAAAAAAAdY/cxOHufpTYqI/SANY0087.JPG )

That'd allow them to put their touches to it without needing to make everything navy

 

[David10]

Since the silver (Virgin) livery is pretty well known, what about simply replacing the current red bits with FirstGroup pink like the hybrid livery for modern buses

Repainting the red bits blue and the white bits pink would look quite good IMO.

 

[Wath Yard]

The railcard easement was/is planned to go in December anyway. It was introduced purely to ease overcrowding on Off Peak trains back in the days of 8 car and now 9 car pendos.

If that is true, how on earth can extending peak times for non-railcard holders to midday be justified?

 

[krisk]

Roger Ford clearly needs to wind his neck in writing things like that. Irrespective of the outcome.

Does he edit Rail or some other publication?

 

[anthony263]

Roger Ford clearly needs to wind his neck in writing things like that. Irrespective of the outcome.

Does he edit Rail or some other publication?

He normally has a few pages in Modern Railways

 

[krisk]

Dont buy it that often, find RAIL much better informed and better value

 

[Wath Yard]

Roger Ford clearly needs to wind his neck in writing things like that. Irrespective of the outcome.

He does have form for announcing things before they happen, and not always correctly. There is no doubt he has very good contacts within the rail industry, but I believe they are on the TOC and manufacturing side, and not in the DfT so he mainly relays gossip - no matter how well informed it is. But then if he didn't he would lose his loyal followers.

 

[krisk]

So someone who thinks he knows something but doesn't. Perhaps The Guardian could give him a job, he would fit in well

 

[tbtc]

So someone who thinks he knows something but doesn't. Perhaps The Guardian could give him a job, he would fit in well

Given that you have come on this thread to suggest that you have heard some insider information and are insinuating the result, how is that any different?

A journalist using insider sources to suggest something before it is officially announced is the way that most of the press works (whether it's a paper claiming that a footballer will transfer to another club before its confirmed or a television station suggesting that a politician will announce something that's not "official")

 

[Zoe]

A journalist using insider sources to suggest something before it is officially announced is the way that most of the press works (whether it's a paper claiming that a footballer will transfer to another club before its confirmed or a television station suggesting that a politician will announce something that's not "official")

As long as they are correct, it's won't look very good for them on Tuesday if Virgin are announced as the winner.

 

[bnm]

Roger Ford clearly needs to wind his neck in writing things like that. Irrespective of the outcome.

Does he edit Rail or some other publication?

Dont buy it that often, find RAIL much better informed and better value

And if you read RAIL regularly, you'd know Roger Ford doesn't edit.

And he doesn't 'have to wind his neck in' as you so ineloquently put it. He's perfectly allowed to speculate as much as the next man. RAIL magazine's Philip Haigh has also tweeted speculation that First have won. Indeed, even this fortnight's RAIL magazine prints a quote from Bob Crow saying that First Group have may won West Coast.

Transport journalists, financial journalists, Virgin staff, heck, even Bob Crow all believe First Group have it in the bag. For them to all be wrong is just not credible in my opinion.

Never mind Krisk, there may be other jobs in Beardie's empire for you should you not wish/are not able to stay with First Horizon Trains (or whatever else they may be called, although Horizon looks favourite.)

 

[tbtc]

As long as they are correct, it's won't look very good for them on Tuesday if Virgin are announced as the winner.

For all we know it could be the French or the Dutch bid.

But, as an example, the rumours of electrification a few weeks from "informed sources" turned out to be pretty accurate.

 

[Wath Yard]

Yes, but the Hebridean Argus knew about the electrification schemes. They were widely leaked.

I think the difference between Roger Ford's announcement and the articles in The Guardian and The Telegraph is that they obviously came from leaks within the DfT. I suspect they are very close to the truth, however neither newspaper has gone as far as announcing the result.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So someone who thinks he knows something but doesn't. Perhaps The Guardian could give him a job, he would fit in well

There is no better informed railway commentator around.
I suggest you read his regular pieces before denigrating our hero.
He's Technical Editor of Modern Railways and actually understands how a railway business works.
I'm sure he will shortly be pulling the winning bid apart in gory detail.
In this particular case he did not lead the leaks.
Oh and the Guardian is quite a good paper too.

 

[anthony263]

There is no better informed railway commentator around.
I suggest you read his regular pieces before denigrating our hero.
He's Technical Editor of Modern Railways and actually understands how a railway business works.
I'm sure he will shortly be pulling the winning bid apart in gory detail.
In this particular case he did not lead the leaks.
Oh and the Guardian is quite a good paper too.

I must say I do actually have some agreement with you there about Roger Ford.

Shame the DFT wouldn't listen to his arguments about IEP however

 

[tbtc]

Yes, but the Hebridean Argus knew about the electrification schemes. They were widely leaked.

I think the difference between Roger Ford's announcement and the articles in The Guardian and The Telegraph is that they obviously came from leaks within the DfT. I suspect they are very close to the truth, however neither newspaper has gone as far as announcing the result.

Same thing here - leaks to certain people mean that we kind of know what is going to happen before it is official.

The only difference being that there's a commercial aspect to the bid (since it will affect the share prices of Virgin/ Stagecoach/ First) so it can't be announced as "fact" by newspapers as there could be claims of insider dealing etc

 

[MK Tom]

Slight deviation from topic but would First taking over affect the MK-Luton coach service? Because that was set up originally by Virgin to act like a Virgin rail service, but around 2009 Stagecoach started deploying their own vehicles on it, changed the number from VT99 to just '99' and now publish their own paraphernalia for it. So is it still supported by Virgin or do Stagecoach (who I realise are 49% of VT) run it commercially? Just wondering if I'm likely to keep the current service, lose it altogether or end up with a First bus running to Luton every hour.

 

[Ferret]

I must say I do actually have some agreement with you there about Roger Ford.

Shame the DFT wouldn't listen to his arguments about IEP however

Yes, Roger Ford does talk a lot of sense. As for the Guardian, this little episode proves that it is no better than the rest of the newspapers I despise. The notion that it's a good paper is laughable.

 

[Wath Yard]

There is no better informed railway commentator around.
I suggest you read his regular pieces before denigrating our hero.

What was it I said about God and disciples?

 

[tbtc]

Slight deviation from topic but would First taking over affect the MK-Luton coach service? Because that was set up originally by Virgin to act like a Virgin rail service, but around 2009 Stagecoach started deploying their own vehicles on it, changed the number from VT99 to just '99' and now publish their own paraphernalia for it. So is it still supported by Virgin or do Stagecoach (who I realise are 49% of VT) run it commercially? Just wondering if I'm likely to keep the current service, lose it altogether or end up with a First bus running to Luton every hour.

Stagecoach may withdraw it (though presumably some of the traffic comes from non-Virgin passengers, such as LM ones or even non-rail passengers), I don't know.

But as far as I can remember First do run a coach service to Luton Airport (from Luton?) which they could integrate with the MK one?

As for the Guardian, this little episode proves that it is no better than the rest of the newspapers I despise. The notion that it's a good paper is laughable.

What has the Guardian done wrong here?

 

[Ferret]

What has the Guardian done wrong here?

Do they have any business publishing a leak from the DfT in advance of the official announcement? VT's staff deserve more respect as far as I'm concerned.