FirstGroup vies with Virgin in west coast rail bidding war

[tbtc]

Do they have any business publishing a leak from the DfT in advance of the official announcement? VT's staff deserve more respect as far as I'm concerned.

All newspapers publish leaks before official announcements (from the Guardian/ Independent/ Times/ Telegraph/ Mail).

Just wait a week or two and they'll all be telling us what Government policies Cameron will announce at the Tory conference before his speech.

If you are a newspaper which gets some newsworthy information from a trusted source* then you are likely to consider publishing it.

(* - n.b. not a hacked phone!)

 

[dvboy]

But as far as I can remember First do run a coach service to Luton Airport (from Luton?) which they could integrate with the MK one?

First operates the bus that runs from Luton Airport Parkway to the airport itself.

 

[Ferret]

All newspapers publish leaks before official announcements (from the Guardian/ Independent/ Times/ Telegraph/ Mail).

Just wait a week or two and they'll all be telling us what Government policies Cameron will announce at the Tory conference before his speech.

If you are a newspaper which gets some newsworthy information from a trusted source* then you are likely to consider publishing it.

(* - n.b. not a hacked phone!)

Oh, of course they do - it's the hypocrisy from the Guardian that I object to. They're full of 'high-minded' moral indignation when it suits them.... Let's not forget that they're premature announcement has given a large dose of the ab-dabs to VT employees, many of whom face uncertain futures. Not that the Guardian are bothered by this!

 

[richw]

First taking over is nothing to be concerned about is my thoughts. From what I have seen from my various travels First and Stagecoach are by far the best franchise operators. Fgw is a very well operated franchise, and they do very well with the stock available to them and have improved the services in the south west ten fold. Stagecoach - SWT/ Virgin operations are well operated franchisees, there's enough on this forum to back that opinion up, with others opinion being similar found freely around this site.

 

[tbtc]

First operates the bus that runs from Luton Airport Parkway to the airport itself.

Cheers for confirming

Oh, of course they do - it's the hypocrisy from the Guardian that I object to. They're full of 'high-minded' moral indignation when it suits them.... Let's not forget that they're premature announcement has given a large dose of the ab-dabs to VT employees, many of whom face uncertain futures. Not that the Guardian are bothered by this!

If you are a Virgin employee on a fixed contract ending in December then presumably you face an uncertain future regardless of which of the four bidders wins (remember, Virgin are going to have to make some big cuts if they are going to pay their big premiums too), regardless of any newspapers. I'm sure the staff have heard plenty of speculation themselves anyway.

 

[richw]

If you are a Virgin employee on a fixed contract ending in December then presumably you face an uncertain future regardless of which of the four bidders wins (remember, Virgin are going to have to make some big cuts if they are going to pay their big premiums too), regardless of any newspapers. I'm sure the staff have heard plenty of speculation themselves anyway.

And even if there was no retendering of franchise, if your fixed contract is ending, then your future would be uncertain. Its the same in any industry not just rail when your on a fixed term contract

 

[David10]

First taking over is nothing to be concerned about is my thoughts. From what I have seen from my various travels First and Stagecoach are by far the best franchise operators.

I think most would agree, but with a tripling of the premium paid to the Treasury there are clearly have to be changes to revenues and costs for these to be met.

 

[Ferret]

If you are a Virgin employee on a fixed contract ending in December then presumably you face an uncertain future regardless of which of the four bidders wins (remember, Virgin are going to have to make some big cuts if they are going to pay their big premiums too), regardless of any newspapers. I'm sure the staff have heard plenty of speculation themselves anyway.

It's not just staff on fixed contracts though. As a result of the Guardian's 'scoop', we now have 'informed sources' speculating that Meridian in Brum will shut, and that First West Coast's office will move elsewhere, thus putting the willies up the staff there too. It's all very distasteful, and as much as you'll try and convince me that the Guardian are an innocent party, you've no chance of succeeding!

 

[Yourang]

One of the articles I read said First were unlikely to use 'First West Coast' as the actual brand for the franchise, despite legally registering under that name - does anyone know what else they might call it?

I'm sure livery mockups from fictitious liveries sites will be coming up before long...

Horizon trains - see earlier in this thread.

 

[fgwrich]

Already been done since I have seen a mock up livery of a pendolino in First livery online somewhere.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/12106-first-great-western-pendolino/

 

[krisk]

Do they have any business publishing a leak from the DfT in advance of the official announcement? VT's staff deserve more respect as far as I'm concerned.

That is the best thing I've read on here. Well bloody said

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do they have any business publishing a leak from the DfT in advance of the official announcement? VT's staff deserve more respect as far as I'm concerned.

The usual source of government leaks is...the government.
Some of it is entirely deliberate (I'm not saying that's what happened here).

And Virgin don't have shares, they are not a public company.
That's why VT data is first seen in the Stagecoach results (which is a publicly quoted company).

 

[David10]

The usual source of government leaks is...the government.

Quite, government leak the bad news in the hope that it will get less attention when the announcement is made and focus brought on the good news bits. By the time it was leaked to the Guardian a fortnight ago, there would have been people outside the DfT who knew the details. At that stage Treasury, the PM's office and others would have been consulted and dare I say it probably First.

 

[150001]

Never had a bad time with First; but I'd probably predict Virgin would do better!

 

[krisk]

Maybe SNCF will win...

 

[neilm]

I think connex, they did a really good job with south central and south eastern.

 

[MK Tom]

Maybe SNCF will win...

Already dropped out, as did the other one.

 

[Skimble19]

LOL, now that really would be a surprise!

 

[krisk]

Two trips to Paris....beats Wolverhampton any day

 

[Yourang]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...res-for-legal-fight-over-West-Coast-line.html

And so it begins...

 

[gswindale]

I find it slightly strange that a number of these articles make reference to "First West Coast" being an already registered company.

Looking at the history, it was formerly known as "First Essex Thameside" and changed name back in early 2011 and is currently dormant.

Therefore the company was quite clearly registering a company in advance in the expectation that they would win a new franchise.

In this case it looks as if First may be about to start using this company set up in 2010.

 

[krisk]

Hmm interesting

 

[Wath Yard]

It's not just staff on fixed contracts though. As a result of the Guardian's 'scoop', we now have 'informed sources' speculating that xxx yyy zzz, thus putting the willies up the staff there too. It's all very distasteful, and as much as you'll try and convince me that the Guardian are an innocent party, you've no chance of succeeding!

How can you criticise The Guardian and in the same post repeat some unconfirmed rumour from an 'informed source' on another forum here? Especially when, as you say, it has caused alarm among some employees.

The Guardian have done nothing wrong and nobody complained when they published, almost in full, the details of CP5 spending prior to the announcement.

 

[David10]

I find it slightly strange that a number of these articles make reference to "First West Coast" being an already registered company.

Looking at the history, it was formerly known as "First Essex Thameside" and changed name back in early 2011 and is currently dormant.

Therefore the company was quite clearly registering a company in advance in the expectation that they would win a new franchise.

In this case it looks as if First may be about to start using this company set up in 2010.

The article seems to infer incorporating a company is a milestone event. It isn't, all you need are 2 individuals to fill the role of director and secretary, a registered address and about £50 to buy a company online.

If you look at the history of all the bidders for recent bids, they incorporate a company or rename an existing one they already own but are not using, at about the same time as responding to the expression of interest.

It is a bit like registering an internet domain name, this is done as a matter of course for a minimal fee and has no reflection on a bidder expecting to win.

I guess if Virgin do decide to appeal there would have to be a renegotiation of the current franchise as I don't think it has an option to extend, which would be a fairly prickly process given Virgin would effectively be putting the DfT in the dock by calling for a judicial review. On the presumption it would take at least a few months to resolve, maybe it will have to be placed in the hands of Directly Operated Railways as East Coast was?

 

[Wath Yard]

I find it ironic that Branson is 'passionate about rail' but is prepared to throw the WCML into mayhem to help his public image.

Though I'm not sure there is anything in it - 'sources' claimed the IEP and Thameslink contracts would also be challenged by the losers and nothing happened.

 

[bnm]

I think connex, they did a really good job with south central and south eastern.

Thanks. Gave me me the best laugh of the evening did that post.

There's not just the incorporating of the company "Horizon Trains Ltd", there's also First Group's bid director, Richard Parry, this week becoming a director of said company, replacing a director who only appears to sit on the boards of dormant First Group companies.

Then there's the domain horizontrains.co.uk that has been registered by First Group and also the registering of Horizon Trains as a trademark. All could be smoke and mirrors and the final name chosen for the franchise by First could be entirely different..... we'll see.

As for a judicial review being launched by Virgin/Stagecoach. Do they (particularly Brian Souter who has other forthcoming bids) really want to upset the DfT by dragging them into the High Court? That's to say nothing for actually having legal grounds to request a judicial review. If Virgin are thinking of a judicial review then surely they'd already need to be aware of an error in process. Being out-bid isn't grounds.

 

[WatcherZero]

Mmm, the fact Virgin, Abellio and SNCF all bid in the £5bn-£5.5bn range shows they all came to pretty much the same conclusion on the maths.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Mmm, the fact Virgin, Abellio and SNCF all bid in the £5bn-£5.5bn range shows they all came to pretty much the same conclusion on the maths.

exactly, in the words of a famous artist 'its just a little bit of history repeating, da, da, da da alaala, da lala'

 

[Morgsie]

I thought Virgin were going it alone this time round

 

[Ferret]

How can you criticise The Guardian and in the same post repeat some unconfirmed rumour from an 'informed source' on another forum here? Especially when, as you say, it has caused alarm among some employees.

The Guardian have done nothing wrong and nobody complained when they published, almost in full, the details of CP5 spending prior to the announcement.

Funny how people always see the Guardian as above criticism isn't it? I knew my criticism of it would see the troops mobilised!

As for your criticism of me - the cat is out when it's posted on wnxx by somebody who really should know better. So - nice try.