First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[HH]

...a lot of the ex FNW managers/Directors are now part of different First Franchises

Outside Vernon, name them.

 

[Nym]

Christ, handbags at dawn...

Can we please stop this thread decending any further into personal vendettas or attacks regarding small niggling facts and actually keep this to a discussion about the thread?

Please!?

 

[dave59]

They might not even be Pendolinos.
Apparently First has two possible suppliers, though I don't see anybody beating Alstom to a 125mph tilting EMU order.
Even then it depends how similar the design is to the original 390s (now 12+ years old).

The EMU order that should have been given the go ahead by the DfT as part of discontinuing ICXC on the northern WCML back in 2007? Delayed 9 years by the inept structure to 2016 (a lot of diesel) but, miraculously it can now be done because of the wonders of a new franchise...

Won't it be an add-on to the recent Angel 390 order? The 12 year old design (with the aircraft-style windows) but with a new FirstGroup specified interior?

 

[RPI]

Outside Vernon, name them.

Wasn't Mark Hopwood something to do with FNW? Hopwood has worked bloody wonders at FGW, at the time he took over at FGW we were ashamed to don an FGW uniform whereas now most people (even some of the real dinosoars) are quite content with working at FGW, what worries me is that First HQ would probably want to send him to WC!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Won't it be an add-on to the recent Angel 390 order? The 12 year old design (with the aircraft-style windows) but with a new FirstGroup specified interior?

The DfT had to have stock compatible with the existing 390s to make the current extension project work.
The vehicles for a new build of 6-car Pendolinos would have to be somewhat different and won't have to interwork with the older trains, so can be a new design if need be.
Also standards have moved on and I doubt Alstom would want, or be able, to build identical stock.
It's like the 379 vs 377 debate or 350 vs 380.
I suspect we might get an updated design (and something that can be offered to other TOCs).
I'm thinking more about the electronics than the external appearance.

 

[fgwrich]

Wasn't Mark Hopwood something to do with FNW? Hopwood has worked bloody wonders at FGW, at the time he took over at FGW we were ashamed to don an FGW uniform whereas now most people (even some of the real dinosoars) are quite content with working at FGW, what worries me is that First HQ would probably want to send him to WC!

Yep, Hopwood was at FNW before moving down to C2C and over to FGW. Now what were we saying about TOCs and good managers?

 

[RPI]

Yep, Hopwood was at FNW before moving down to C2C and over to FGW. Now what were we saying about TOCs and good managers?

Lets not forget that FNW was only bought out by first group from Great Western Holdings, most of the rot had been there since BR, and looking at the state of Northern Rail now i don't think things have improved!

 

[Donny Dave]

Won't it be an add-on to the recent Angel 390 order? The 12 year old design (with the aircraft-style windows) but with a new FirstGroup specified interior?

AFAIK, VWC and Alstom had to get a derogation in order to build the 4 extra pendos and all the additional carriages, as crash standards have been tightened further since the original order was built and delivered. However as they were ordered to be part of the same fleet, permission was given. I don't think the same will happen for the "baby pendos", so I'm expecting them to be numbered as class 391 or somthing similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lets not forget that FNW was only bought out by first group from Great Western Holdings, most of the rot had been there since BR, and looking at the state of Northern Rail now i don't think things have improved!

To be fair to Northern, apart from the 333 in West Yorkshire, they have had no purpose built new stock since before privatisation, instead having to beg the DfT for more stock, which is usually "cast offs" from other TOCs when they have replaced them. It doesn't help when some of their better units are then subleased against theie will to another TOC, only for those units to never return ....

 

[Masbroughlad]

Outside Vernon, name them.

Wasn't Mark Hopwood something to do with FNW? Hopwood has worked bloody wonders at FGW, at the time he took over at FGW we were ashamed to don an FGW uniform whereas now most people (even some of the real dinosoars) are quite content with working at FGW, what worries me is that First HQ would probably want to send him to WC!

Indeed he did. I had the opportunity to work for him at FNW offered to me some years ago and I turned it down. Hindsight eh? Wish I'd said yes!!

 

[RPI]

AFAIK, VWC and Alstom had to get a derogation in order to build the 4 extra pendos and all the additional carriages, as crash standards have been tightened further since the original order was built and delivered. However as they were ordered to be part of the same fleet, permission was given. I don't think the same will happen for the "baby pendos", so I'm expecting them to be numbered as class 391 or somthing similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


To be fair to Northern, apart from the 333 in West Yorkshire, they have had no purpose built new stock since before privatisation, instead having to beg the DfT for more stock, which is usually "cast offs" from other TOCs when they have replaced them. It doesn't help when some of their better units are then subleased against theie will to another TOC, only for those units to never return ....

And just how much post privatisation stuff does FGW have then on the local stuff? zilch! but at least the old bangers on FGW have had a lick of paint on the inside and new seat covers and a clean lol!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Outside Vernon, name them.

You have Dave Kaye who was MD of FGE after Bob Breakwell retired and continued the good work by his predecessor and led the company to many awards including train operator of the year.

Of course FNW was not perfect by any means, but 2-3 of the staff who worked there have proven at other franchises that they are not totally useless.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

It'll be interesting to see just how much the culture at First has changed now Moir Lockhead has retired and Tim O'Toole has taken over.

From my experience of First starting 12 years ago there was a culture of continually making management reapply for their jobs which meant that anyone who was any good tended to steer clear while you had a few who would try and make a man for themselves occassionally to the detrament of the front line staff. It's interesting to note that quite a few of those managers who did make a name for themselves a lot have progressed within the rail industry with other companies.

 

[Skimble19]

AFAIK, VWC and Alstom had to get a derogation in order to build the 4 extra pendos and all the additional carriages, as crash standards have been tightened further since the original order was built and delivered. However as they were ordered to be part of the same fleet, permission was given. I don't think the same will happen for the "baby pendos", so I'm expecting them to be numbered as class 391 or somthing similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


To be fair to Northern, apart from the 333 in West Yorkshire, they have had no purpose built new stock since before privatisation, instead having to beg the DfT for more stock, which is usually "cast offs" from other TOCs when they have replaced them. It doesn't help when some of their better units are then subleased against theie will to another TOC, only for those units to never return ....

Nor has FCC GN, and TL has only had 23 377s..

 

[Metroland]

Sir Richard Branson, the chairman of Virgin Group, and Tony Collins, the chief executive of Virgin Trains, will launch the first stage of the attack at a parliamentary hearing on Monday on the West Coast franchise. The contract to run the service was controversially awarded to rival FirstGroup last month.

Virgin will highlight a number of past franchising failures as part of a concerted effort to have the West Coast deal delayed. The criticisms will come just days after another operator, Go-Ahead, admitted it may have to request taxpayer money next year to prop up its struggling Southern services.

The fresh fears over the Government’s system for awarding lucrative rail contracts come as The Sunday Telegraph can reveal the process for returning the ill-fated East Coast line to private hands will begin next month.

The East Coast line between London and Scotland – seen as the “crown jewel” of the rail network – was renationalised amid a welter of negative publicity in 2009 after GNER and then National Express admitted they could no longer afford to run the service.

The first documents for East Coast and three other franchises – Northern, Southeastern and Greater Anglia – will be published from October, raising concerns in the industry that the rail bidding process could descend into chaos over the next 18 months.

In addition to the disputed West Coast contract, which remains unsigned, the Department for Transport and train operating companies are already working on three other franchises, resulting in seven major contracts coming to the market at the same time. That amounts to a third of the UK’s rail franchises.

The sheer number of franchises in play raises concerns that the DfT will not be able to “accurately” assess the bids, according to senior industry figures.

The Government has already announced the short-listed bidders for Great Western, Essex Thameside and Thameslink, which will be decided early next year.

“There’s mania out there in terms of all of these transactions,” said one industry leader. “If the West Coast line does go to judicial review, think of the pressure that will be put on the DfT procurement team.”

Another added: “They are in meltdown at the Department for Transport.”

Ed Thomas, head of KPMG’s transport advisory group, which works with train operators on bids, said: “With the prospect this autumn of a third of the UK’s rail franchises being at some stage of the bid process at the same time, operating groups are having to carefully plan their bid resourcing to ensure that they do not become overstretched.”

The new Transport Secretary, Patrick McLoughlin, is likely to come under pressure from both the industry and MPs to slow down the franchising process to ensure each contract is let on appropriate and realistic terms.

Britain’s rail industry has entered one of the most critical periods since privatisation, with 15 contracts due to be decided between now and 2018.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...0993/Branson-in-attack-on-rail-bid-chaos.html

 

[WatcherZero]

Word is the Government is checking the fine print to see if theres any loophole in the section 30 legislation that allows them to award the franchise to First on a caretaker basis on December 9th but more realistically they are spinning up Dor to take over. The appeals process is taking longer than expected with it believed a decision on whether there was a case to answer would be made within two weeks but now its overunning from the sheer quantity of Dft franchising procedures paperwork the judge has to read through before he even gets to the bids themselves.

 

[jopsuk]

Nor has FCC GN, and TL has only had 23 377s..

the mainstay of the outer suburban GN services, the 365s, were new only two years before privitisation. The 319s on TL were a maximum of ten years old at the time.

The 317s and 313s though, they're rather older.

 

[Oswyntail]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...0993/Branson-in-attack-on-rail-bid-chaos.html

I think one can guess where they got this line fed to them (Hint: look at first line of quote). And who will be paying the cost of all this reviewing? Not SRB

 

[jon0844]

The 317s and 313s though, they're rather older.

But whether it's quality British engineering or quality maintenance at Hornsey, the 313s (and the 317s) seem to remain very reliable.

In fact, I'd expect more regular problems should either fleet get replaced with brand new stock!

Most complaints about FCC (or other London commuter services) are usually about problems unrelated to the TOC, like signalling (cable theft in many cases) or OHLE issues, for example. Lack of information was a valid issue but quite well addressed by good Twitter feeds that relay information more effectively than other means.

Other complaints might be down to PFs, which don't apply to Virgin. I wonder how Virgin would manage PFs if they did and what it would do to their reputation.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Polarbear]

Reuters news agency reporting today that WCML franchise may well be operated by DOR as from 9 December;

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/09/uk-virgin-rail-idUKBRE88806H20120909

 

[RPI]

Reuters news agency reporting today that WCML franchise may well be operated by DOR as from 9 December;

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/09/uk-virgin-rail-idUKBRE88806H20120909

haha superb, better than Branson keeping hold of it any longer than he has to.

 

[Ferret]

Reuters news agency reporting today that WCML franchise may well be operated by DOR as from 9 December;

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/09/uk-virgin-rail-idUKBRE88806H20120909

Unless the judge throws out the application for judicial review this week, I'd say it's a stonewall certainty that it'll be DOR West Coast in December!

 

[Masbroughlad]

Reuters news agency reporting today that WCML franchise may well be operated by DOR as from 9 December;

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/09/uk-virgin-rail-idUKBRE88806H20120909

Unless the judge throws out the application for judicial review this week, I'd say it's a stonewall certainty that it'll be DOR West Coast in December!

If there is a case, surely it will throw the whole franchising system up in the air?

 

[fgwrich]

Reuters news agency reporting today that WCML franchise may well be operated by DOR as from 9 December;

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/09/uk-virgin-rail-idUKBRE88806H20120909

As as someone's commented on WNXX, No new trains are ordered to replace the Voyagers on the Birmingham - Edinburgh/Glasgow = Passengers suffer. Plus, could this produce a nock on effect to some of the new West Coast services?

 

[richw]

haha superb, better than Branson keeping hold of it any longer than he has to.

I'm starting to wonder if his judicial review was just to drag it so he could of been still in control for the christmas rush, before passing to First. Be glad of it passing to DOR whilst this drags out.

 

[Erniescooper]

As as someone's commented on WNXX, No new trains are ordered to replace the Voyagers on the Birmingham - Edinburgh/Glasgow = Passengers suffer. Plus, could this produce a nock on effect to some of the new West Coast services?

First have'nt decided which train they want yet and they were'nt due to start any new services until 2016 which would give them plenty of time to source new trains. If the tables were reversed however it might have been a problem as Virgin have everything in place for new trains and their new services were due to start 12 months before First groups.

 

[Wath Yard]

Procurement, development, build and acceptance will take a while. There is nothing 'off the peg' to order. Even if it is baby Pendolinos they won't be Pendolinos. IEP isn't going to enter service until approx 2017 and that order has already been confirmed.

 

[dave59]

The mandarins should order the trains. so that their agents FirstGroup can hit the ground running.

 

[Erniescooper]

Procurement, development, build and acceptance will take a while. There is nothing 'off the peg' to order. Even if it is baby Pendolinos they won't be Pendolinos. IEP isn't going to enter service until approx 2017 and that order has already been confirmed.

The Virgin order for Baby Pendolino would have been a version of the present Class 390 as Alstom are allowed to build the current train under the 7 year derogation granted by the EU and DFT in 2008.

 

[Yew]

No because the unit is missing pieces of equipment which help it drive

Its an air compressor, that takes the brakes off. anyway it would have apitiful amount of seating. Hopefully some extra carriages for it will be included in project thor. be they with or without diesel engines

 

[Wath Yard]

The Virgin order for Baby Pendolino would have been a version of the present Class 390 as Alstom are allowed to build the current train under the 7 year derogation granted by the EU and DFT in 2008.

My understanding of that derogation was they had to be identical, which is why the new sets were built with the obsolete entertainment system and then had that removed and Wifi installed once delivered. The word on the street is these baby Pendolinos will be quite different, a fixed coupler for a start, therefore the derogation will not apply.