BBC4 Thurs 13th The Age of the Train

[Cletus]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but there's a documentary next Thursday the 13th on BBC4 titled 'The Age of the Train' "about the Inter-City 125 train, which helped turn around British Rail fortunes & was launched using a memorable avertising campaign fronted by Sir Jimmy Saville"
says "new" in the tv guide i read.

 

[yorksrob]

Cheers for the heads up. Looks right up my street !

 

[SS4]

It's repeated on BBC4 on:

• Fri 14 Sep 2012 01:45 BST
• Sat 15 Sep 2012 22:40 BST

in case it clashes

 

[47403]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but there's a documentary next Thursday the 13th on BBC4 titled 'The Age of the Train' "about the Inter-City 125 train, which helped turn around British Rail fortunes & was launched using a memorable avertising campaign fronted by Sir Jimmy Saville"
says "new" in the tv guide i read.

will watch out for that, hopefully we'll get to see more loco's than just the trams, villified for the death of the deltic and many other loco hauled turns but you can't argue that they've became the workhorse for passenger trains, the length and bredth of the UK railways. I'm personally not a fan of them but I've a damn sight more respect for the HST now, than I ever had.

 

[Harbon 1]

Set to record!

 

[giblets]

Just spotted this program on Wednesday evening, if anyone is interested, sect
BBC4 (not radio) 9pm Weneday 12th Sept.
Please move if this is the wrong section.

 

[bnm]

EDIT: Listings show it on Thursday 13th 9pm, BBC Four.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, an excellent programme. I want to try one of those British Rail Pizza's !

I can't help thinking what a shame it was that they didn't persevere with the APT as well though. (I'm sure with a bit of tweaking it would have been fine).

 

[Bungle73]

Well, an excellent programme. I want to try one of those British Rail Pizza's !

I can't help thinking what a shame it was that they didn't persevere with the APT as well though. (I'm sure with a bit of tweaking it would have been fine).

Wasn't the thing with the APT that not that it was a bad design, but the people with the cash got cold feet and decided to pull the plug on the project.

 

[Max]

Have to agree, very interesting documentary. The HST probably has to go down as one of the greatest trains of all time and still going strong now!

 

[snail]

Well, an excellent programme. I want to try one of those British Rail Pizza's !

No, you don't. You really don't... :cry:

 

[bb21]

My favourite quotes from the programme:

"According to reports, the prime minister has a particular dislike of British Rail. It's known she goes by car. She goes by air. She also perhaps appropriately is not averse to the odd trip by the Chieftain tank, but never ever were told she travelled by train. I suspect she has another form of public transport, as she flicks across the sky at night, on her personal broomstick."

 

[ainsworth74]

Wasn't the thing with the APT that not that it was a bad design, but the people with the cash got cold feet and decided to pull the plug on the project.

It was a number of things including those holding the purse strings becoming unhappy with the cost/lack of progress.

APT was sunk in part by it's attempt to introduce a lot of things that had never been done before including (but definitely not limited to) tilt and attempting to get the WCML up to 155mph operation.

It also suffered from the handover that occurred between the APT-E and the APT-P. APT-E was the brainchild of British Rail Research Division at the Derby RTC, they designed it and tested it and got all the information from it. Then we moved onto the APT-P which wasn't designed and built by the researchers it was done by the engineers, the people that had to try and take what they'd been given and make it work. This transfer seems to have been less than totally successful, which brings us onto the next problem BR's inability (at least initially) to manage and deliver a project of such scope. I seem to recall that a enquiry whilst the program was running determined that BR could deliver APT but it would require a total restructuring of the program to do so. It was about this time that the political will to deliver APT began to evaporate and without that the money soon followed.

APT was a project that could have worked but it had a lot stacked against it and without a government willing to stand by the project come thick or thin and continue to pump the money needed into it, it was never going to work. Which is a shame as it would have been one hell of train, as we can see from the IC225s on the ECML today which are effectively what the APT-S would have been.

As for the program I've not watched it yet but it's set to record on the Sky+ later on and I'll watch it tomorrow, quite looking forward to it now

 

[IanD]

Thoroughly enjoyed it. Brought back many memories. I'll never forget my fist sight of an IC125 HST in Bristol in 1976. I think it was about 4 years before I got to ride in one. Loved the story about the ad agency pitching to Sir Peter Parker (not sure if that was his real name or just a pen name). And the Jimmy Saville adverts - how much from Watford Junction to London? No mention of the follow-up strap line to "The Age of The Train", which were "We're getting there!" and possibly "It's better to travel than arrive!" both open to as much mis-interpretation as the "Age of the train".

I even remember seeing BB21's favourite clip on the news at the time (and have used the broomstick part many times to good effect).

 

[jazza374]

The most eyewatering comment for me was quite late in the programme when a guy in a suit, forgive me I don't know his name, said something like "Margaret Thatcher did wonders for the railways in the UK"
I'm still climbing back on to the couch.

 

[ainsworth74]

"Margaret Thatcher did wonders for the railways in the UK"

ECML electrification, Sprinterisation, Pacerisation (okay not amazing but it almost certainly saved services in some areas), station re-openings throughout West Yorkshire and elsewhere, kicking off the channel tunnel, the DLR, tram systems in Sheffield and Manchester...

Not a bad little list and I think I might be missing a few bits a pieces.

 

[IanXC]

The most eyewatering comment for me was quite late in the programme when a guy in a suit, forgive me I don't know his name, said something like "Margaret Thatcher did wonders for the railways in the UK"
I'm still climbing back on to the couch.

ECML electrification, Sprinterisation, Pacerisation (okay not amazing but it almost certainly saved services in some areas), station re-openings throughout West Yorkshire and elsewhere, kicking off the channel tunnel, the DLR, tram systems in Sheffield and Manchester...

Not a bad little list and I think I might be missing a few bits a pieces.

I suspect its more a case of what she didn't do, ie BR were left to get on with things without too much political interferance. That resulted in them being able to get on with the things above.

 

[adc82140]

Had FGW got out their most gleaming, shiny example of a HST for the cameras? The comparison between the grimy, early days and today was tangible.

Masterstroke for the advertising agent leaving the chairman of BR in a mucky, unloved waiting room with nonchalant service for 20 minutes, to mimick the service offered at the time by BR.

 

[Welshman]

It was a number of things including those holding the purse strings becoming unhappy with the cost/lack of progress.

APT was sunk in part by it's attempt to introduce a lot of things that had never been done before including (but definitely not limited to) tilt and attempting to get the WCML up to 155mph operation.

It also suffered from the handover that occurred between the APT-E and the APT-P. APT-E was the brainchild of British Rail Research Division at the Derby RTC, they designed it and tested it and got all the information from it. Then we moved onto the APT-P which wasn't designed and built by the researchers it was done by the engineers, the people that had to try and take what they'd been given and make it work. This transfer seems to have been less than totally successful, which brings us onto the next problem BR's inability (at least initially) to manage and deliver a project of such scope. I seem to recall that a enquiry whilst the program was running determined that BR could deliver APT but it would require a total restructuring of the program to do so. It was about this time that the political will to deliver APT began to evaporate and without that the money soon followed.

APT was a project that could have worked but it had a lot stacked against it and without a government willing to stand by the project come thick or thin and continue to pump the money needed into it, it was never going to work. Which is a shame as it would have been one hell of train, as we can see from the IC225s on the ECML today which are effectively what the APT-S would have been.

Thank you for that excellent summary of the downfall of APT.

And without detracting from that, may add a personal comment of my own?

I think it also failed because it was too good. I'm not a technical expert, and I hope those who are will excuse what follows, but by its fully- compensating for the cant deficiency you had no idea you were going round a bend, and this caused problems to the sense of balance trying to reconcile seeing views of the sky or ballast through the window.

Today's Pendolino, while tilting, still lets you know there's a bend.

 

[PR1Berske]

The programme is available on iPlayer for another week (or upto a month if you download it from iPlayer)

 

[sprinterguy]

Who was it that was shown to have a model railway in their loft, who claimed that the old Hornby Intercity 125 in Executive livery was quite rare and hard to find? At any mid-sized model railway exhibition you can expect to find half a dozen of those sets being sold for a pittance, and a quick browse of Ebay produces a similar number, let alone if you include the original blue & yellow sets which would have been more appropriate to this documentary!

That model railway sequence seemed to be completely unnecessary to the content of the show, but other than that tiny foible I thought that it was really very good.

 

[RPM]

The most eyewatering comment for me was quite late in the programme when a guy in a suit, forgive me I don't know his name, said something like "Margaret Thatcher did wonders for the railways in the UK"
I'm still climbing back on to the couch.

That was Roger Ford, who's knowledge of the railway cannot be overestimated. I think the point he was making was how ironic it is that the railway flourished so much during the peroid of office of a PM who openly loathed it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who was it that was shown to have a model railway in their loft, who claimed that the old Hornby Intercity 125 in Executive livery was quite rare and hard to find? At any mid-sized model railway exhibition you can expect to find half a dozen of those sets being sold for a pittance, and a quick browse of Ebay produces a similar number, let alone if you include the original blue & yellow sets which would have been more appropriate to this documentary!

That model railway sequence seemed to be completely unnecessary to the content of the show, but other than that tiny foible I thought that it was really very good.

Yes, Peter Snow's daft comment about the rarity of model HSTs did stick out as a low point in the programme and I agree that particular segment really should have been cut out as it contributed nothing when some other more interesting parts of the story were rather glossed over.

 

[CC 72100]

Very good programme. If it was say 1 hour 30, then maybe the could have included a section about the HST has 'moved with the times' etc. still into privatisation, although the downside of this would be that it goes away from the initial 'point' of the programme about how it helped to change public image of BR.

 

[duncanp]

ECML electrification, Sprinterisation, Pacerisation (okay not amazing but it almost certainly saved services in some areas), station re-openings throughout West Yorkshire and elsewhere, kicking off the channel tunnel, the DLR, tram systems in Sheffield and Manchester...

Not a bad little list and I think I might be missing a few bits a pieces.

Not to mention the creation of Network South East, which did a lot for travel in and around London, plus the Thameslink project.

Possibly though, as someone has already said, it is not that Mrs Thatcher can claim the credit for these. Rather that she left BR to get on with doing what it thought best within the budget it was set, with little interference from politicians.

PS.

And the decision to retain the Settle & Carlisle line, in the face of spin and false accounting from BR (eg regarding the cost of repairing the Ribblehead Viaduct)

 

[LouJ]

Overall a very good programme.

Sadly I think the APT was the usual story with British ground-breaking technology. A good idea that was not financed adequately so that the original idea was left for some else to pick up the pieces and get to work. We can thank the APT project for Pendolinos and other similar tilting trains in the World. Its just a pity that it was the Italians who perfected the concept and made it work.

 

[trainophile]

Excellent programme, even for us "laypersons" (i.e. passengers!). I was drooling over those breakfasts - does any operator still do cooked-to-order catering nowadays? Even if they do on sleepers, I bet they don't on commuter services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This programme brought me back to the days when such programmes reflected the hopes and aspirations of that period of time. The APT journey with press on board which finally had to terminate at Crewe was a piece well worthy of inclusion as a comparison with the Inter-City 125.

I still have a programme, originally videoed, but then transferred to DVD, about The Yorkshire Pullman, which gave the various on-board staff chance to give their views on that particular service as somewhere to work upon, plus their own personal views on the rail industry at that time. The journey made was in the depth of a bitterly cold period with snow and ice making life extremely difficult for the train.

 

[AlterEgo]

Excellent programme, even for us "laypersons" (i.e. passengers!). I was drooling over those breakfasts - does any operator still do cooked-to-order catering nowadays? Even if they do on sleepers, I bet they don't on commuter services.

Yes. There's:

Travelling Chef on First Great Western: http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Your-journey/On-board/Food-and-drink/Travelling-Chef

ATW Premier Service: http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/Templates/Content.aspx?pageid=388

EMT Breakfast trains: http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/PageFiles/1706/first_class_guide_to_travel_menu.pdf

Virgin and East Coast also do breakfast during the peak, but these are all "complimentary" rather than a paid-for offering.

 

[sprinterguy]

Excellent programme, even for us "laypersons" (i.e. passengers!). I was drooling over those breakfasts - does any operator still do cooked-to-order catering nowadays? Even if they do on sleepers, I bet they don't on commuter services.

The cooked breakfasts on the Caley sleepers in particular are noted for being disappointingly poor. In fact, some of the best on-board breakfasts you can expect to find on rail services in Britain nowadays are still those served on HSTs, with First Great Western and (Controversially ) East Coast. Virgin do a reasonable breakfast offering as well, although in none of these cases do I know how obliging the TOCs would be in altering what is provided to suit customer requests. Wrexham & Shropshire did far and away the best on-train breakfast of recent times.

 

[Robert Taggart]

Excellent documentary. YIKES !... it makes us feel soo old... APT, BRB, RWB, SPP, SJWVS - RIP !