What Happened to all the Slam door trains?

[trainophile]

Seeing as the ATW 121 is a single car unit that is not permitted to operate anywhere in passenger service on the mainline other than the Cardiff Bay shuttles I doubt that was what you were on

Oops . I haven't a clue really, but I was on a wonderful old-style train, it had a huge loco at the front end, then a big compartment that looked like it was for mail or something, then several rather plush coaches, all table seating, really comfortable seats, and there were even seascape murals painted on the end walls.

I wonder what it was then. Never seen it before or since.

I panicked a bit when I arrived at Hereford and had to work out how to open the door, by opening the window and using the handle on the outside.

 

[ukrob]

Why are some people talking as if they were withdrawn because they had slam doors?

 

[sprinterguy]

Oops . I haven't a clue really, but I was on a wonderful old-style train, it had a huge loco at the front end, then a big compartment that looked like it was for mail or something, then several rather plush coaches, all table seating, really comfortable seats, and there were even seascape murals painted on the end walls.

I wonder what it was then. Never seen it before or since.

That will have been ATWs' loco hauled rake, that is utilised during the week on the Holyhead - Cardiff Premier working. The mark 2 standard class carriages that are used on this service (There are two rakes) are often combined to provide additional capacity during major sporting events in Cardiff.

 

[90019]

Oops . I haven't a clue really, but I was on a wonderful old-style train, it had a huge loco at the front end, then a big compartment that looked like it was for mail or something, then several rather plush coaches, all table seating, really comfortable seats, and there were even seascape murals painted on the end walls.

I wonder what it was then. Never seen it before or since.

The WAG Express.

 

[BestWestern]

I was thinking this just the other day!!! Does a guard need anything other than a T Key to open the panel and release the doors? I've seen them do it so many times and it doesn't seem that way. They use those keys on heritage/private railways, do they not? Are they controlled items? Surely someone with a mind to could just open the doors if they took one with them! Or am I being dense?

Sorry if I am, its been a long day

No you're quite right, carriage keys are not controlled at all and indeed are lost on a worryingly regular basis by the numerous people who have them. As well as traincrew this includes various people around stations and even on board trolley stewards. They should, in my humble view, be replaced in all security/safety sensitive applications such as cab doors and control panel covers, with something far more secure and issued on a recorded basis. They'd still go walkabouts of course, but on a far less frequent basis if the people responsible for carrying them were obligated to take more care, perhaps encouraged to do so by a substantial cost for replacement items.

A colleague of mine told me a deeply worrying tale a while back, concerning a couple of what you may well term 'scroats'. These two gents were making sufficient nuisance of themselves for arrangements to have been made to stop the train at a signal outside it's next scheduled station call, in order to ensure that the police were present on the platform when the service pulled in. As the Guard is speaking with the Driver regarding communication from the Panel box, the train's doors are suddenly released and the scroats leap down onto the cess and scarper. Turns out they had a carriage key in their possession, and were aware of where to find the release controls and which buttons to hit. Needless to say they didn't bother with the relative complexity of a local door procedure, they just hit the release and popped the whole lot. Thankfully nobody else chose to open up any other doors

 

[Starmill]

No you're quite right, carriage keys are not controlled at all and indeed are lost on a worryingly regular basis by the numerous people who have them. As well as traincrew this includes various people around stations and even on board trolley stewards. They should, in my humble view, be replaced in all security/safety sensitive applications such as cab doors and control panel covers, with something far more secure and issued on a recorded basis. They'd still go walkabouts of course, but on a far less frequent basis if the people responsible for carrying them were obligated to take more care, perhaps encouraged to do so by a substantial cost for replacement items.

A colleague of mine told me a deeply worrying tale a while back, concerning a couple of what you may well term 'scroats'. These two gents were making sufficient nuisance of themselves for arrangements to have been made to stop the train at a signal outside it's next scheduled station call, in order to ensure that the police were present on the platform when the service pulled in. As the Guard is speaking with the Driver regarding communication from the Panel box, the train's doors are suddenly released and the scroats leap down onto the cess and scarper. Turns out they had a carriage key in their possession, and were aware of where to find the release controls and which buttons to hit. Needless to say they didn't bother with the relative complexity of a local door procedure, they just hit the release and popped the whole lot. Thankfully nobody else chose to open up any other doors

Yikes! Testament to the other people on the train really. Perhaps a new thread would be more appropriate, unless you have done this issue to death (I see only one from someone who wanted to buy one in 2008, closed for obvious reasons).

Sticking with the door theme, I've often thought that I could operate the doors on most units myself with ease. Especially since the panels are often left open!

Click here for a HUGE image of the door controls

The local procedure does not look too hard on a 158 at least...

Do many trains have anything which prevents the train from moving while the doors are open like some LRVs do? Or could you literally just plug the doors at 90?

 

[BestWestern]

Class 158 control panel covers - as you've photographed there - are notoriously flimsy and the crappy locks often don't work. The panel you show there is not keyed on, hence the green LED - so the door control buttons are not live and nothing would happen if you tried them. A panel left open and keyed in would be a rather a big deal if somebody did start playing with it.

There are door/brake interlocks which prevent brake release if the doors are not properly closed, and will apply the brakes if they are opened whilst moving. It varies depending on the type of train, but they all have a safety system. Going back to 158's, you'll see there is a 'local door' rocker switch there. It isn't unusual to find these left in the 'open' position sometimes, which can catch you out - if you don't notice and you key in, the button becomes live and the brakes come on as soon as you turn your key. Oops!

 

[ainsworth74]

It isn't unusual to find these left in the 'open' position sometimes, which can catch you out - if you don't notice and you key in, the button becomes live and the brakes come on as soon as you turn your key.

The kind of mistake that causes a rather red faced guard to explain to the driver why their perfect approach to the station has been ruined and one they're not quick to repeat?

 

[BestWestern]

The kind of mistake that causes a rather red faced guard to explain to the driver why their perfect approach to the station has been ruined and one they're not quick to repeat?

Yep, that would be the kind! Of course the Guard quickly rebuffs all responsibility by blaming the idiot who left the switch down

 

[Starmill]

I KNOW that wouldn't do anything! Its clearly set to "OFF" - but a mere 90 degree turn changes that with ease does it not? I was rather demonstrating that it isn't at all hard to use the controls, even if you've never seen them before, once you've turned the key.

And back to the point about safety: an emergency break application is all well and good, but the door would be still be open would it not?

And I can see that these are rickety, but I've seen the panels left wide open on a 323 a couple of times too. That IS odd.

 

[northernrail2009]

There is still one currently residing in the shed at Clapham:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/7471559130/

Great Pic but what is what looks like to be a Cricket Bat in the far front window?

when they were in use many years ago i saw them alot with what looks like a cricket bat in front window.

 

[ainsworth74]

It will probably be the short-circuit bar (There is probably a more official name) that's put down on the third rail to create a circuit between the third rail and a running rail that firstly causes the power to be cut out and then makes sure that it stays out.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes its amusing watching a guard lean on a Pacers dicky doors to keep them closed and make a good circuit connection.

 

[scotsman]

I think there's a 1st gen Hastings DEMU which does railtours - it has CDL installed so incidents like that described by Stats can't occur.

It doesn't need CDL, some bolts ("secondary door locking") and stewards at each door is also acceptable - but in this case, impractical

 

[junglejames]

I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that some rail enthusiasts are determined to drag our rail network back into the dark ages. Not only were the slammers structurally unsafe but the compartments made travel at night a rapists / muggers paradise. Not only that but the doors were and are very inconvenient.

I will happily accept such things on a preserved railway but on the national network they have quite rightly been consigned to history. The railway has a duty of care towards its customers, something which some posters have conveniently ignored.

Sorry, who is trying to drag us back into the dark ages? Ignoring the fact these slammers never operated during the dark ages, I havent seen anybody suggest they reappear. We are purely pointing out that they cant be blamed for peoples stupidness.
Saying that. Id much rather travel on a good old slammer than a 375 or 395.

 

[Rick1984]

I went on one once when on holiday in the New Forest. I loved it and the door at every seat but did find the handle on the INSIDE somewhat odd! I could open the door from my seat without even having to get up.

I could see it potentially being dangerous if you happened to lean on the handle while under way. Day if the train lurched our it was packed.

 

[MP33]

When I used to travel on a slam door train to work there was in the evening a man who used to open the door when the train was slowing to stop at my station. He then jumped out whilst the train was still moving to have a running start up the footbridge.

Luckily he never met someone coming down the footbridge to catch the train, carrying a bike or suitcases.

 

[starrymarkb]

On Wednesday I travelled on Chiltern's Mark 3 coaches that have had automatic doors fitted at no little cost to replace centrally locked slam doors.

Today I went to Norwich on Mark 3 coaches with centrally locked slam doors.

Can anyone tell me why Chiltern have to fit automatic doors (or is it the company's choice?) while GA, FGW, EMT etc, keep slam doors.

It's company choice, though I suspect all the other Mk3 operators are watching with interest and will be talking to Chiltern about their experiences. It's also better to trial the conversion on a small fleet before trying to tackle something like the huge FGW fleet.

Also something to bear in mind is that FGW's refurb was only designed to last about 7 years. IEP was supposed to be under test now with squadron service starting next year. If they knew back in 2006 that the order was not going to be signed until 2012 for 2017 delivery they might have done more work...

 

[Bushy]

I went on one once when on holiday in the New Forest. I loved it and the door at every seat but did find the handle on the INSIDE somewhat odd! I could open the door from my seat without even having to get up.

Corridor stock didn't have internal latches. I think that this was to prevent children opening them. Presumably it was thought that children sitting in seats were under the control of an adult; another reason you couldn't use them today.

Regards

Bushy

 

[RPM]

It's company choice, though I suspect all the other Mk3 operators are watching with interest and will be talking to Chiltern about their experiences. It's also better to trial the conversion on a small fleet before trying to tackle something like the huge FGW fleet.

Also something to bear in mind is that FGW's refurb was only designed to last about 7 years. IEP was supposed to be under test now with squadron service starting next year. If they knew back in 2006 that the order was not going to be signed until 2012 for 2017 delivery they might have done more work...

Another reason for the Chiltern conversion is to attempt to speed up station dwell times, the removal of the vestibules was done to this end too.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry, who is trying to drag us back into the dark ages? Ignoring the fact these slammers never operated during the dark ages, I havent seen anybody suggest they reappear. We are purely pointing out that they cant be blamed for peoples stupidness.
Saying that. Id much rather travel on a good old slammer than a 375 or 395.

Absolutely spot on. It's not as if we'd be able to bring them back, bearing in mind most have already gone to the torch anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the compartments made travel at night a rapists / muggers paradise. Not only that but the doors were and are very inconvenient.

A very small number of units were half and half compartment/salloon. The vast majority were one compartment carriage to three salloons. If you didn't fancy chancing a compartment at night, there was a very simple solution.

As for inconvenience, try being stuck behind half a carriage of commuters, all trying to get out of one end carriage door !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I could see it potentially being dangerous if you happened to lean on the handle while under way. Day if the train lurched our it was packed.

to be fair, the internal door handles tended to be quite stiff anyway and you'd have to give it a good firm squeeze, so much so that I'd usually end up opening from the outside if at all possible.

 

[MrC]

Great Pic but what is what looks like to be a Cricket Bat in the far front window?

when they were in use many years ago i saw them alot with what looks like a cricket bat in front window.

It's a wooden paddle normally used when paddling up 3rd rail units.

If you see one placed in the secondman's window as in the photo it indicates that the parking brake has been applied in that cab.

 

[wimbledonpete]

Corridor stock didn't have internal latches. I think that this was to prevent children opening them. Presumably it was thought that children sitting in seats were under the control of an adult; another reason you couldn't use them today.

Regards

Bushy

That's not quite right - VEPs had internal latches.

 

[Bungle73]

Not only that but the doors were and are very inconvenient.

Inconvenient how?

I went on one once when on holiday in the New Forest. I loved it and the door at every seat but did find the handle on the INSIDE somewhat odd! I could open the door from my seat without even having to get up.

I could see it potentially being dangerous if you happened to lean on the handle while under way. Day if the train lurched our it was packed.

Was it like this:

They're internal latches I remember, and they would be very difficult to open accidentally (it took quite a bit of effort to open it when you DID want to).

 

[transmanche]

Inconvenient how?

Getting on a train with luggage, a buggy, a wheelchair and/or when shepherding kids is much easier with a wide power door, than it is having to open and close a narrow slam door. Give me a 378 over a 2-EPB any day!

 

[yorksrob]

I think there's a 1st gen Hastings DEMU which does railtours - it has CDL installed so incidents like that described by Stats can't occur.

For those still bereft at the loss of real trains, it's well worth a journey on. I note that yesterday's tour was sold out though, so there are a few of us about:

http://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/

(The CDL allows them to rent it out to TOC's from time to time).

 

[Rick1984]

No it was, just a normal door handle, although that may be mind playing tricks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No it was, just a normal door handle, although that may be mind playing tricks.

Having done some (limited) research I'm inclined to think it must have been the latch type. My memory though is of the sort of handle you might find in an office.

 

[Bushy]

They're internal latches I remember, and they would be very difficult to open accidentally (it took quite a bit of effort to open it when you DID want to).

Although not difficult, there was a knack to using the internal latches and you couldn't operate them accidentally. If you were safety concious you always dropped the window and leant out to check that there was nobody close to the platform edge when jumping off a moving train, opened the door using the outside handle and held onto the door to swing it closed once you were off; assuming that there was nobody behind you also getting off.

One problem with them was that they had a double catch so if you didn't slam them they might not be fully closed. Just before they were phased out they started putting dayglo stripes down the door edge so that it was easier for platform staff/guard to see if the weren't properly closed. That worked OK if the staff were looking up the train on a nearside platform. #on an offside platform you would have to be at the front of the train to see the stripe on an open door.

Regards

Bushy

 

[jopsuk]

the doors on HSTs/other mark 3 stock still in use have the dayglo edges.

The one thing that I've understood is why, given it is now a long time since they got central locking, why they hcan't have handles fitted to the inside, in the conveniant blank space?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Inconvenient how?

Well it’s hardly rocket science! It’s a damn sight easier to press a button to open the door then it is to pull down the window and fumble with a door handle. Or worse to open the door from the inside with a ridiculously stiff latch.