Two Police Officers killed in Tameside

[ralphchadkirk]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19635239

Two female police officers have died during a police operation in Tameside, Greater Manchester, police said.

Police said both officers suffered fatal injuries during a "routine operation" in Hattersley.

A witness close to the scene at Abbey Gardens reported hearing 13 gunshots and an explosion.

Police said Dale Cregan had been arrested at a police station in connection with the officers' deaths and two previous murders.

He was arrested when he walked into Hyde police station a short time after the incident in Tameside.

A bomb disposal team remain at the scene.


Dale Cregan, 29, has been arrested
Assistant Chief Constable Garry Shewan said it was "a tragic day for Greater Manchester Police".

Home Secretary Theresa May said: "This is a deeply shocking incident and a terrible reminder of the risks that police officers face every day to keep our communities safe."

The police flag at Greater Manchester Police headquarters has been lowered to half mast.

Mr Shewan said Mr Cregan had also been arrested on suspicion of two counts of murder in relation to the investigations into the murders of David Short and Mark Short.

David Short was killed in a gun and grenade attack in Clayton on 10 August.

His son, Mark Short, was killed in a pub shooting at the Cotton Tree Pub in Droylsden in May.

Very sad news, and highlights how dangerous their work can be. Rest in peace.

 

[fgwrich]

Very sad news indeed. I heard about this story over an hour ago when the first officer had been killed, now sadly Greater Manchester has lost another one. I've got several friends in several forces, and it has to be one of the worst, if not the worst thing to hear. RIP to the both of you, thoughts are with colleagues, family friends and GMP. I shall keep wearing my Rathband with pride & sadness.

 

[Johnuk123]

With all the (justified) criticism about Hillsborough policing this brings into focus what police officers face on a regular basis.

Having very recently retired from the job after 28 years I can tell you a tragedy like this sends shock waves round a station.

I have first hand experience of more than one similar incident and it hits you hard.

The bloke has given himself up so at least we'll have no more killings.

He was being sought for 2 more (alleged) murders, R.I.P. to all the very unfortunate victims.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have just been watching the press conference on TV that was called and the fact that it appears a deliberately planned ambush had been planned of any police officers attending the scene of a reported burglary. The use of a grenade has been mentioned in addition to the shootings. Two young female unarmed police officers have met a horrific death whilst being sent out to investigate a normal run-of-the-mill incident that had been reported.

 

[snail]

Tragic. But it's led to a strange piece of reporting in the Guardian:

Greater Manchester police had been searching for Cregan, who has only one eye, for months

Completely irrelevant to this incident, or the police search.

 

[callum112233]

Tragic. But it's led to a strange piece of reporting in the Guardian:

Completely irrelevant to this incident, or the police search.

I'm sick of seeing his nasty eye socket on TV. Throw away the key.

 

[scotsman]

Tragic. But it's led to a strange piece of reporting in the Guardian:

Completely irrelevant to this incident, or the police search.

No it's not, it's a very clear distinguishing feature.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Although certain events happened very many years ago, I wondered how long it would take the media to remind everyone that both Ian Brady and Myra Hindley came from that same estate.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

And is also the same area that that gent was killed a couple of years ago for asking the youths near his house to stop bothering him.

I believe that Mottram / Hattersley is one of the dodgiest extensive (as opposed to an estate for example) areas in the country, someone (and I've forgotten who) certainly once told me that he agreed with that.

My thoughts with the family and friends, and colleagues, of the two women killed.

EDIT - And this is totally unconnected however it is only a few miles from the town of Hyde, where a certain Dr Shipman practised. The area seems somewhat unusually connected to a large number of murders / murderers.

 

[deltic1989]

It is tragic, and goes to show what the Police do for us everyday.
They never know what they are going to walk into as this case shows.
The Government I understand has released a statement today saying that Police officers should not be routinely armed. This I think is a matter of tradition as Robert Peel Intended the police to appear Civilian and not Military, but because in the UK we take tradition seriously, in my opinion this is putting the Police in very dangerous situations.
In some cases where armed intervention is required the appropriate officers could be clean the other side of the City.
In my opinion police should be routinely armed, no protection against a grenade I grant you but could have saved them if the only danger was a firearm.

 

[Temple Meads]

The danger is that criminals will even more feel the need to be armed themselves if they think they will come up against an armed police officer...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

82% of Police Federation members, and ACPO all agree that they would not want officers to be routinely armed.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The danger is that criminals will even more feel the need to be armed themselves if they think they will come up against an armed police officer...

Manchester developed a most unfortunate nickname of Gunchester some years ago and they are already have a well-established network of gun supply into the criminal fraternity. It will be immaterial in this area whether the police are armed or not, as they already possess a large number of weapons. The last incident concerning a hand-grenade was not the first time that this has happened in Manchester as a hand-grenade was also used in the fatal attack upon the elder of the two victims of a gangland feud in which it was said that Dale Cregan also took part not all that long ago.

 

[Kneedown]

The danger is that criminals will even more feel the need to be armed themselves if they think they will come up against an armed police officer...

But the criminals are already armed, and the majority of Officers are not.
As an ex Officer myself, i think it will be a very sad day when the Police are routinely armed, but something needs to be done, which is one reason why i am a strong supporter of Capital Punishment.

 

[Bungle73]

But the criminals are already armed, and the majority of Officers are not.
As an ex Officer myself, i think it will be a very sad day when the Police are routinely armed, but something needs to be done, which is one reason why i am a strong supporter of Capital Punishment.

Capital punishment is not a deterrent. Furthermore the justice system is not infallible. And lastly state-sanctioned murder is murder just the same.

 

[Kneedown]

Capital punishment is not a deterrent. Furthermore the justice system is not infallible. And lastly state-sanctioned murder is murder just the same.

Check out the murder rates in Britain (per head of population) before and after abolition. You will see that it WAS a deterrent.

Murder is UNLAWFUL taking of life with malice aforethought. Judicial execution is carried out legally following trail and appeal. It is not murder by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Bungle73]

Check out the murder rates in Britain (per head of population) before and after abolition. You will see that it WAS a deterrent.

Check out the murder rate in America, who have CP. Case closed me thinks.

Murder is UNLAWFUL taking of life with malice aforethought. Judicial execution is carried out legally following trail and appeal. It is not murder by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh, so if something is technically "legal" then that makes it ok does it? I see.

I'd add this too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_Four_and_Maguire_Seven

If we'd still had CP these people would be DEAD.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

murder, n.1 and int.

A. n.1
1. The action or an act of killing.

I rest my case.

 

[NSEFAN]

Check out the murder rates in Britain (per head of population) before and after abolition. You will see that it WAS a deterrent.

The issue is more complicated than that. Society has changed in other ways since the abolition of the death penalty, so it's a bit simplistic to assume that abolotion alone was responsible for the increase in murder rate.

 

[district]

I rest my case.

An OED definition and a legal definition are two different things.

Example: 'company' by definition means a commercial business, but the NRCOC implies by the inclusion of Gatwick Express (which is not, strictly speaking by the traditional definition, a 'company') that it can mean a sub-brand.

A foetus is not human life until it has 'taken its first breath'. This is the legal definition as used in a case where a sailor stabbed his wife to abort a baby she concieved when he was at sea. It was held in this case the man was not guilty of the foetus' murder (his wife survived) but merely GBH with intent.

Also consider what murder means morally. This will be different to many different people. Things are not as clear cut as you may first think.

 

[Kneedown]

The issue is more complicated than that. Society has changed in other ways since the abolition of the death penalty, so it's a bit simplistic to assume that abolotion alone was responsible for the increase in murder rate.

By that reasoning it's impossible to say that it ISN'T a deterrent.

 

[GB]

Things are not as clear cut as you may first think.

Indeed, self defence of yourself or others would not constitute murder. Capital punishment is considered homocide rather then murder at it is homocide that is recorded on the death certificate of people who have had capital punishment.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

My brand new A2 Law book states murder in law is defined as 'the unlawful killing of a reasonable person in being and under the King's (or Queen's) Peace with malice aforethought, expressed or implied'.

 

[Kneedown]

Check out the murder rate in America, who have CP

If we'd still had CP these people would be DEAD.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I rest my case.

Not every state in America has the death penalty for murder, and many that do rarely, if ever, use it. Even in those States that do carry out executions, few murderers actually recieve a death sentence, and those that do sometimes die of old age before sentence is carried out.

As regards the possibility of innocents being executed, many more innocents die at the hands of murderers, plenty who have killed before.
By the way, if the 'Maguire Seven' were only convicted of possessing explosives as your link states, they would not have been sentenced to death.

 

[Bungle73]

An OED definition and a legal definition are two different things.

Example: 'company' by definition means a commercial business, but the NRCOC implies by the inclusion of Gatwick Express (which is not, strictly speaking by the traditional definition, a 'company') that it can mean a sub-brand.

A foetus is not human life until it has 'taken its first breath'. This is the legal definition as used in a case where a sailor stabbed his wife to abort a baby she concieved when he was at sea. It was held in this case the man was not guilty of the foetus' murder (his wife survived) but merely GBH with intent.

Also consider what murder means morally. This will be different to many different people. Things are not as clear cut as you may first think.

Tell that to him.

Not every state in America has the death penalty for murder, and many that do rarely, if ever, use it. Even in those States that do carry out executions, few murderers actually recieve a death sentence, and those that do sometimes die of old age before sentence is carried out.

The fact is it is there and their murder rate is through the roof even so.

And talking about America and whether CP is a deterrant, States that have abolished the death penalty have shown a marked decrease in murder rates since putting such decisions into effect. Additionally, such states average significantly fewer murders per thousand than states with the death penalty.

As regards the possibility of innocents being executed, many more innocents die at the hands of murderers, plenty who have killed before.

And? So that justifies an innocent being put to death?? Would you be that person, or a member of their family? I didn't think so.

By the way, if the 'Maguire Seven' were only convicted of possessing explosives as your link states, they would not have been sentenced to death.

And what about the Guildford 4?

 

[GB]

Much better to have more whole life traffifs without possibility of parole I think.

 

[Kneedown]

The fact is it is there and their murder rate is through the roof even so.

And talking about America and whether CP is a deterrant, States that have abolished the death penalty have shown a marked decrease in murder rates since putting such decisions into effect. Additionally, such states average significantly fewer murders per thousand than states with the death penaly

We can throw statistics from America at one another all day. On a state by state basis there is no consistent trend. States both with and without the DP have rising and falling crime rates. The fact is we are not talking about America. We are talking about Britain and it is a fact that murder rates have vastly increased since abolition. Even taking into account the rise in population.
I did the maths previously somewhere else on this forum when the subject of Capial Punishment came up.

 

[ainsworth74]

Much better to have more whole life traffifs without possibility of parole I think.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was cheaper as well. The death penalty in the US invariably takes the initial trial, an appeal and possibly more with the chance of going all the way to their Supreme Court all of which the state has to pay for and lawyers, judges and everyone else associated with a trail don't come cheap. That's ignoring the clogging up of the legal system as well with this extra work. Far easier and I think morally preferable to lock them up for life.

 

[JoeH]

Regarding the routine arming of police, I did compare the number of police officers killed with firearms in Great Britain verses other countries where the police are armed. I found it difficult finding figures for most countries but did find them for the US, Canada and two states of Australia.

Unsurprisingly the US has a massive amount of law enforcement officers shot and killed in comparison. They seem to have about 100 to every 1 here. Taking account for population that's about 20 times the rate.

Canada seems to have about 6 times the amount.

For Australia I only looked at New South Wales and Western Australia but both seemed to have significantly higher rates than us.

I also looked beyond just the number of officers killed but also at the circumstances. In the US fewer than a third of officers who are shot and killed manage to use their weapons and a significant number of officers are killed with their own weapon. Actually, in 2010 alone more were killed with their own weapon than have been killed with any firearm in Britain in the last 15 years.

Events like this are a terrible tragedy but thankfully are incredibly rare.

 

[Kneedown]

And? So that justifies an innocent being put to death?? Would you be that person, or a member of their family? I didn't think so.


And what about the Guildford 4?

No justice system is perfect, and unfortunately mistakes have happened. Very few indeed in this country. Perhaps investigations will be a lot more thorough when the ultimate penalty is a real possibility.
Unfortunately as i've said, do we continue to encourage murder by lowering the consequences, or deter and punish justly by raising the consequences. Innocents die every day, should we ban cars because people get knocked over? How many innocent foetuses die every day without so much as a trial let alone appeal, for the crime of being an inconvenience?

 

[Bungle73]

We can throw statistics from America at one another all day. On a state by state basis there is no consistent trend. States both with and without the DP have rising and falling crime rates. The fact is we are not talking about America. We are talking about Britain and it is a fact that murder rates have vastly increased since abolition. Even taking into account the rise in population.
I did the maths previously somewhere else on this forum when the subject of Capial Punishment came up.

Correlation does not imply causation.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was cheaper as well. The death penalty in the US invariably takes the initial trial, an appeal and possibly more with the chance of going all the way to their Supreme Court all of which the state has to pay for and lawyers, judges and everyone else associated with a trail don't come cheap. That's ignoring the clogging up of the legal system as well with this extra work. Far easier and I think morally preferable to lock them up for life.

It is cheaper....much cheaper.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No justice system is perfect, and unfortunately mistakes have happened. Very few indeed in this country. Perhaps investigations will be a lot more thorough when the ultimate penalty is a real possibility.
Unfortunately as i've said, do we continue to encourage murder by lowering the consequences, or deter and punish justly by raising the consequences. Innocents die every day, should we ban cars because people get knocked over? How many innocent foetuses die every day without so much as a trial let alone appeal, for the crime of being an inconvenience?

How easily you propose terminating someone else's life. Why don't you answer the question I posed earlier: would you be prepared to be the innocent party put to death by the state, or have it be your family member?