Trapped in train doors

[Anon Mouse]

If the guard/driver/person in charge of despatch cannot see that all the doors are clear, they should not attempt to close the doors. It's in the Rule Book, it's unequivocal.

Yes in our eyesight. We cannot see somebody say, in the rear coach suddenly deciding they want to get off! I am a Guard and I would never attept to close the doors when it is not safe to do so. Also there are times when we press to close the doors and somebody emerges from nowhere and obstructs the doors while they are closing. I am not condoning door procedure being done incorrectly but I will not condone people deliberatly holding the doors open.

 

[pendolino]

Yes in our eyesight. We cannot see somebody say, in the rear coach suddenly deciding they want to get off! I am a Guard and I would never attept to close the doors when it is not safe to do so. Also there are times when we press to close the doors and somebody emerges from nowhere and obstructs the doors while they are closing. I am not condoning door procedure being done incorrectly but I will not condone people deliberatly holding the doors open.

I know all that, that wasn't the point I was making, I don't mean those passengers who decide to get on/get off just as the guard/driver has started to close the doors, but those who are in the process of alighting/boarding when the guard/driver decides to close the doors. You said 'the driver/guard cannot see what is happening at every door and certainly not inside the train' which suggests that doors are closed when the driver/guard is unsighted. That should never happen, but unfortunately it does.

 

[Linziburns]

Westcoaster - This was at the Littleport station in Cambs., 1248 service from Ely.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Maybe our wires have been crossed. I would not close the doors when people are still boarding/alighting but in many of these cases when people get trapped in the doors is because they choose not to listen to the hustle alarms and decide they want on/off after the door close buttons have been pressed. I cannot see how this is the Guard/Driver/Dispatchers fault, sometimes people can act foolish while on trains and stations. People can suddenly 'make a run for it' and dive on train as the doors are closing or shove a foot or a bag in to try and re-open it. If someone gets trapped in a door normally they bounce open and the person moves out of the way. Nobdoy is going to set a train away with somebody trapped in the door and besides that is impossible on modern traction. Either the obstruction moves out of the way when the door bounces open again or the doors are re-opened and the person causing the obstruction moved away. Apologies if I caused any confusion in my post but I will maintain that it is extremelly foolish for anyone to delebratly hold the doors open regardless if the realise at the last minuite they want off or if they can see somebody running for the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also I fail to see how on a DOO down south how on a 12 car train the driver can see every single door considering some stations are on a curve or obstructed by buildings/signs/commuters. On the trains I work the longest is 6 car and every train has a Guard so an incident of being unable to see every door is very slim. Its one of the reasons why I am 100% against DOO as I do not feel it to be a safe method of working.

 

[westcoaster]

Ah ok this on the GN side then, I'm on the TL side. We don't have a 20 second poicy for doors being openedn but doors may close 20 seconds prior to departure. About the doors not bouncing back when you were caught in them I can't comment as I do not work on class 365 trains, but on the ones I drive the older trains will hold what ever is stuck untill the driver re-releases them, on the newer trains the doors will bounce back open , then try to close again 3 times if this is still unsucsessful they will stay open and cause a door fault. What I will say is, in future when you go to board just tap on the window and let the driver know where you wish to allight and this should help to not cause any future problems most of us are friendly.

 

[Linziburns]

Pendolino - I was looking at recent newspaper reports that covered body parts such as hands, ankle, arm, etc - though of course they must be viewed with scepticism. I would have assumed that an arm or leg would be detectable, though one wouldn't expect to have an arm or leg as large as a double buggy! It's good to have reassurance that nothing worse could have happened, my mind ran riot in the moment!

 

[pendolino]

Maybe our wires have been crossed. I would not close the doors when people are still boarding/alighting but in many of these cases when people get trapped in the doors is because they choose not to listen to the hustle alarms and decide they want on/off after the door close buttons have been pressed. I cannot see how this is the Guard/Driver/Dispatchers fault, sometimes people can act foolish while on trains and stations. People can suddenly 'make a run for it' and dive on train as the doors are closing or shove a foot or a bag in to try and re-open it. If someone gets trapped in a door normally they bounce open and the person moves out of the way. Nobdoy is going to set a train away with somebody trapped in the door and besides that is impossible on modern traction. Either the obstruction moves out of the way when the door bounces open again or the doors are re-opened and the person causing the obstruction moved away. Apologies if I caused any confusion in my post but I will maintain that it is extremelly foolish for anyone to delebratly hold the doors open regardless if the realise at the last minuite they want off or if they can see somebody running for the train.

Except that's not the case in either respect. RAIB report into incident at Kings Cross

Again, it's not the person 'making a run for it' that concerns me, it's the fact that on a very, very small number of occasions, despatch is not carried out as it should be. Unfortunately those occasions can have serious consequences.

Also I fail to see how on a DOO down south how on a 12 car train the driver can see every single door considering some stations are on a curve or obstructed by buildings/signs/commuters.

Then quite obviously that driver should not despatch the train until he can (whether it's 4,6,8,10,12 cars, any length) because that would be in contravention of the rule book.

 

[spacehopper]

I'm not sure if this helps but the safest way IMHO to get buggies off trains is to step off the train on to the platform and gently bump the buggy down backwards.

That way hopefully the driver will see you on the platform getting your buggy off.

Even better ask another passenger to give you a hand off. Two hands are better than one. Apologies if you did leave the train this way but you'd be amazed how many mums try and get buggy off "head first" and front wheels go straight down the gap between train and platform.

One of the advantages of having guards on trains is they are stood on the platform seeing who is getting on and off. If I see a buggy on the platform I will direct and then normally help them on board and make sure buggy is stored in correct space usually in tip up seats area.

Also with the train having a guard I would check your ticket so know where you would be getting off. So I would know to give you a hand off or allow extra time for alighting.

Its the personal and safe service I'm able to offer on trains I work as a guard.

 

[Linziburns]

Thanks Westcoaster, I'll make sure to do this next time!

 

[Mojo]

Also I fail to see how on a DOO down south how on a 12 car train the driver can see every single door considering some stations are on a curve or obstructed by buildings/signs/commuters. On the trains I work the longest is 6 car and every train has a Guard so an incident of being unable to see every door is very slim. Its one of the reasons why I am 100% against DOO as I do not feel it to be a safe method of working.

l disagree with your views on DOO/OPO being unsafe; but that has already been debated before! But where it is not possible to see the full length of the train from the normal driving position, then mirrors or monitors are deployed to afford the Driver/Train Operator the view of the entire length of the train.

 

[Anon Mouse]

l disagree with your views on DOO/OPO being unsafe; but that has already been debated before! But where it is not possible to see the full length of the train from the normal driving position, then mirrors or monitors are deployed to afford the Driver/Train Operator the view of the entire length of the train.

I don't work DOO remember and if I was working a train(as a Guard obviously) I will ensure the train is clear before departing. I still can't see how a driver on a DOO train (no Guard to check the doors are clear etc) can see the full length of a 12 car train even if monitors and mirrors are deployed. I've seen plenty of mirrors vandalised on Metro and DOO operated networks and have often had doubts about the safety. At least a Guard can position him/herself at a panel where a full view can be had. A driver on a DOO train can only dispatch from the front cab.

 

[pendolino]

Pendolino - I was looking at recent newspaper reports that covered body parts such as hands, ankle, arm, etc - though of course they must be viewed with scepticism. I would have assumed that an arm or leg would be detectable, though one wouldn't expect to have an arm or leg as large as a double buggy! It's good to have reassurance that nothing worse could have happened, my mind ran riot in the moment!

Well yes you're right to view reports like that with scepticism. I don't know the exact dimension (maybe someone else will) but I think if the doors are open more than about 20mm then there will be no interlock and the driver will be unable to take power. As I've said, it is possible to get interlock with, say, an item of clothing trapped in the door, which is why correct despatch (whether with a guard or DOO) is essential, but to reiterate, if your buggy is trapped in a closing door, that train's not moving.

 

[Anon Mouse]

I'm not saying its right that somebody will dispatch the train without having a full and clear view, but at least with a Guard there is an extra safeguard and somebody elses eyes on the events on the platform

 

[Linziburns]

Two hands are better than one. Apologies if you did leave the train this way but you'd be amazed how many mums try and get buggy off "head first" and front wheels go straight down the gap between train and platform.

My friend who normally does this journey alone did take the buggy off backwards, however the gap is still very large to negotiate. I bent down to lift the front wheel onto the platform, it was here that the doors closed. I believe that there was plenty of buggy visible on the outside to have been seen by the driver. I'm personally very inexperienced regarding train journeys, however my friend is a seasoned passenger! Unfortunately this train appeared to have no guard which, I'm certain, would have prevented this incident - cutbacks perhaps? But that's a whole other discussion! The station is also very small and unmanned.

 

[pendolino]

I don't work DOO remember and if I was working a train(as a Guard obviously) I will ensure the train is clear before departing. I still can't see how a driver on a DOO train (no Guard to check the doors are clear etc) can see the full length of a 12 car train even if monitors and mirrors are deployed. I've seen plenty of mirrors vandalised on Metro and DOO operated networks and have often had doubts about the safety. At least a Guard can position him/herself at a panel where a full view can be had. A driver on a DOO train can only dispatch from the front cab.

In-cab or on-platform monitors where there are a sufficient number of images can give a perfectly good view of the entire length of a train. Unfortunately there are still locations/rolling stock where this isn't the case, which is why adhering to correct procedure at all times is essential, and I know that it isn't always so.

 

[Anon Mouse]

In-cab or on-platform monitors where there are a sufficient number of images can give a perfectly good view of the entire length of a train. Unfortunately there are still locations/rolling stock where this isn't the case, which is why adhering to correct procedure at all times is essential, and I know that it isn't.

'Can' and 'Do' are two different things. I am not condoning the Driver (or Guard if that is the case) doing their job incorrectly and not following rules nor am I condoing foolish behaviour that sometimes is carried out by a minority of passengers. Maybe I did'nt explain my point too clearly but I don't think its 100% at all times for a driver on a lengthy DOO train to have a full and clear view regardless of which safeguards are in place. That is one of the reasons and mentioned above why I think there should be a Guard on all trains.

On the network I work on I cannot think of anywhere where my view can be impended but plenty where the drivers view would be. I would accept DOO a slight bit more if there was a procedure on platforms where a Dispatcher would be deployed

 

[Linziburns]

where it is not possible to see the full length of the train from the normal driving position, then mirrors or monitors are deployed to afford the Driver/Train Operator the view of the entire length of the train.

This driver actually told me that he couldn't see, in fact his words were "how am I supposed to know if I can't see?". If he had access to mirrors/monitors, he should have been able to see me, friend and buggy. It makes me wonder if his equipment was faulty or if he just didn't bother to use it, I wonder if I'll ever know!

 

[TGV]

I would like to know:

1. Why the doors didn't reopen when such a large obstacle was detected
2. Why the driver wasn't aware that the doors were still open and check for problems
3. How the driver could close the doors without first checking that passengers were clear
4. Does FCC actually hold a 20 second exit policy?!!!
5. Who can I approach to make a formal complaint other than FCC?
6. What can I expect from FCC in response to my complaint (investigation, apology, etc)?

I informed FCC on the day of the incident via email but have not yet received a response.

Would be grateful for any information, many thanks

Hi there. I think first of all under the circumstances you did well to get off as you did.

Bearing in mind I work on French high speed trains and don't know what kind of train you were on or what the station was like, my answers may not be as useful as some here, but if it helps, here's my thoughts:

1 - I guess it was an old train that doesn't have a sensitive-edge on the door. In other words the door system wouldn't have "known" there was something in the way. Newer trains will/should have such a system so when detecting an obstacle before they have travelled the required distance to close, they will open again.

2 - Two parts to that answer. It is very likely the driver in one form or another DID know, but if he didn't have line of sight or CCTV images showing, he would only know because his interface (don't know what you call them on UK trains) was telling him that a door was still open. For all he knew at that point it was only a door failure. His next action there would be to release the doors and attempt a re-close.

The second part is why didn't he check for problems? For all we know he was but didn't have time to resolve the situation you found yourself in, but judging by his unprofessional remarks (in my opinion) to you afterwards, it seems he took a different view.

3 - The driver should check the doors are clear and the platform edge is clear before closing doors. This is either done by line of sight, CCTV or a third party (guard or platform despatcher)

4 - No idea. Sounds unusual to me.

5 & 6 - there are better answers here than I can give so follow them.

 

[pendolino]

'Can' and 'Do' are two different things. I am not condoning the Driver (or Guard if that is the case) doing their job incorrectly and not following rules nor am I condoing foolish behaviour that sometimes is carried out by a minority of passengers. Maybe I did'nt explain my point too clearly but I don't think its 100% at all times for a driver on a lengthy DOO train to have a full and clear view regardless of which safeguards are in place. That is one of the reasons and mentioned above why I think there should be a Guard on all trains.

On the network I work on I cannot think of anywhere where my view can be impended but plenty where the drivers view would be. I would accept DOO a slight bit more if there was a procedure on platforms where a Dispatcher would be deployed

No it isn't, but that's where the driver's professionalism comes into place to ensure that despatch is carried out safely and not to close the doors or move the train until he/she is sure it is safe to do so.

(There is at a completely safe and foolproof way to despatch a DOO train safely where the mirrors/monitors are inadequate but this will inevitably result in a delay. But it is only if all drivers cause a necessary and justifiable delay at locations where DOO provision is poor that improvements will be made.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This driver actually told me that he couldn't see, in fact his words were "how am I supposed to know if I can't see?". If he had access to mirrors/monitors, he should have been able to see me, friend and buggy. It makes me wonder if his equipment was faulty or if he just didn't bother to use it, I wonder if I'll ever know!

If that's the case then that (to me at least) is completely unprofessional and entirely unacceptable.

 

[Anon Mouse]

(There is at a completely safe and foolproof way to despatch a DOO train safely where the mirrors/monitors are inadequate but this will inevitably result in a delay. But it is only if all drivers cause a necessary and justifiable delay at locations where DOO provision is poor that improvements will be made.)

Walking down the outside of the train ensuring that everyone is out of the way and locking each door manually? Is that even possible on those trains?

 

[Linziburns]

Pendolino - he was very cross, and considering the shock I'd just had I was surprisingly calm and not offensive to him! Another passenger on the platform also heard the exchange and had her mouth open in disbelief so I know it wasn't just me who thought he was out of order!

 

[A-driver]

Obviously we don't know exactly what happened but u have had many instances of people starting to get on or off AFTER I gave pressed the door close button. As has been said, we can not see into the train at all so once everyone appears clear of the doors we will close them. If you then start to leave then it depends how quick you are-if the driver notices quickly enough (and DOO FCC drivers can be watching up to 24 sets of doors on up to 12 different monitors at a time ) then he can re-release which stops them closing further. If it is too late then he can only re release them for the passenger to re-press the open button.

He certainly wouldn't have been able to move with the doors open and as soon as he saw you I would Imagen he acted-that's how you had time to go and walk to the front to knock on his window and talk to him!

As for instances of people being dragged by FCC trains they have other circumstances surrounding them and you should fully read those RAIB reports before making assumptions.

Some units infact (I know 315s do or at least used to) can't re-release doors until all doors are shut and interlock is gained.

Doors will not bounce back like a lift-if they did then rush hour trains would never ever leave!

As for the 29 secs, its not official but 20 secs is far more than enough time to get on and off, even with a buggy. Obviously if after 20 secs people are still visible to the driver getting on and off then he will not start closing the doors.

And I thought Mojos post was excellent-summed it up and answered all your questions. How was it unsympathetic?! Just factual.

 

[A-driver]

Walking down the outside of the train ensuring that everyone is out of the way and locking each door manually? Is that even possible on those trains?

Yes it is-its possible on all if fccs fleet.

 

[Mojo]

This driver actually told me that he couldn't see, in fact his words were "how am I supposed to know if I can't see?". If he had access to mirrors/monitors, he should have been able to see me, friend and buggy. It makes me wonder if his equipment was faulty or if he just didn't bother to use it, I wonder if I'll ever know!

The way it was said in the original post makes it sound to me that he is saying he cannot see the inside of the train!

 

[Linziburns]

The second part is why didn't he check for problems? For all we know he was but didn't have time to resolve the situation you found yourself in, but judging by his unprofessional remarks (in my opinion) to you afterwards, it seems he took a different view.

Thanks for this, I hadn't thought about him attempting to rectify the situation whilst we were trapped. Perhaps he did, though he was very rude and appeared to be completely surprised when I appeared at his window. Makes me think that he didn't realise there was a problem at all!

 

[rebmcr]

My friend who normally does this journey alone did take the buggy off backwards, however the gap is still very large to negotiate. I bent down to lift the front wheel onto the platform, it was here that the doors closed. I believe that there was plenty of buggy visible on the outside to have been seen by the driver.

In that case he was in the wrong.

 

[pendolino]

Walking down the outside of the train ensuring that everyone is out of the way and locking each door manually? Is that even possible on those trains?

Yes, you've got it. I've done it on a few occasions. Make a PA announcement informing the passengers there will be a delay, contact the signaller for the same reason, then shut down the cab, walk back to close doors using local door close buttons, back up the front, set up the cab, check for interlock, final check that doors are clear (by stepping onto the platform if necessary) then off you go. By doing that, you have complied with the requirements of the Rule Book to the very best of your ability.

It takes a couple of minutes, but tough. No-one's ever died or got injured solely because their train was 2 minutes late, but they have been when despatch has been rushed.

If you ever come across a driver or guard who said they couldn't see the whole train and just hit the doors close button and hoped for the best, then tell them this. And remind them that if an accident should happen, they are opening themselves up to being personally responsible for any consequences, because they have not complied with the Rule Book.

(Mentioning no names, I have said exactly this to a poster on here - another driver - who admitted to self-despatching without being able to see the rear of the train, at a location where the mirrors are known by drivers to be adequate - yet he'd had never reported it.)

 

[Kettledrum]

I'm surprised at the responses on the forum that do not appear to treat this as a serious incident. The children in the buggy could have been seriously injured.

Doesn't this warrant a referal to the Health and Safety Executive?

 

[Anon Mouse]

Yes it is-its possible on all if fccs fleet.

Fair enough, I would'nt fancy walking the length of 11 coaches to check the 12th one, I get a nose bleed when I have 6 cars to play with!

 

[Linziburns]

Mojo - once again, apologies for unclear info in my original post, the report I emailed to FCC was much more thorough, thankfully. I didn't actually expect such a response on this website so didn't take much time to explain myself before posting - rookie mistake, will try to improve if I post again!