Trapped in train doors

[Mojo]

I have supplimentary questions for any DOO drivers out there: At what point would you notice a pram being pushed out though the doors? Most prams form a triangular shape with the point to the front so the area visible would increase as the pram was pushed out but it may not be visible at the start of the process.

In the platform-mounted mirrors or monitors I can see, at a minimum, the door runners of every single door, so as soon as anything crosses this, it is always visible.

Secondly, I have been told by a DOO driver that someone standing more than a few inches away from the side of the train would not be visible via the ontrain CCTV cameras, can this be confirmed?

I assume you are referring to body-side mounted cameras here?

 

[Linziburns]

So getting back to the incident in question if a passenger indeed had a buggy halfway through a set of doors as the alarm sounded you should have sufficient to alight safely before the doors actually close.

Is it me, or does it sound like perhaps the OP tried to alight from the train as the dispatch procedure had commenced rather than the driver intentionally closing the doors on her as she alighted? Just my 2 cents.

And as I mentioned earlier, we were struggling to manoeuvre the heavy buggy over the unusually large gap between the train and the platform after other passengers had already alighted. The alarm sounded and the door closed seconds later. I certainly don't think that the driver intentionally closed the doors on us!

All I can do is attempt to assure you that we were indeed ready to leave the train and did not try to disembark at the last second as your reply suggests.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have supplimentary questions for any DOO drivers out there: At what point would you notice a pram being pushed out though the doors? Most prams form a triangular shape with the point to the front so the area visible would increase as the pram was pushed out but it may not be visible at the start of the process.

The pram in question is indeed triangular in shape, however we manoeuvered it out backwards meaning the greater part would be on the outside of the train. I am a robust person (many thanks!) and I am getting over the experience much faster after reading many of the responses posted!

 

[Monty]

And as I mentioned earlier, we were struggling to manoeuvre the heavy buggy over the unusually large gap between the train and the platform after other passengers had already alighted. The alarm sounded and the door closed seconds later. I certainly don't think that the driver intentionally closed the doors on us!

All I can do is attempt to assure you that we were indeed ready to leave the train and did not try to disembark at the last second as your reply suggests.

In that case I apologise for my remark, I was merely giving a professional opinion based on fact and my own experiences. But rest assured if the driver had not seen you straight away, he would have noticed in a very short time as he would not have had obtained 'interlock' and the train would have been unable to take power and move.

 

[reb0118]

I have supplimentary questions for any DOO drivers out there:.........................Secondly, I have been told by a DOO driver that someone standing more than a few inches away from the side of the train would not be visible via the ontrain CCTV cameras, can this be confirmed?

I assume you are referring to body-side mounted cameras here?

Yes I am.

 

[Linziburns]

In that case I apologise for my remark, I was merely giving a professional opinion based on fact and my own experiences. But rest assured if the driver had not seen you straight away, he would have noticed in a very short time as he would not have had obtained 'interlock' and the train would have been unable to take power and move.

I'm very thankful that so many people have posted that the train would have been unable to move, it's made me think much more calmly and rationally about the whole incident.

 

[reb0118]

The pram in question is indeed triangular in shape, however we maneuvered it out backwards meaning the greater part would be on the outside of the train. I am a robust person (many thanks!) and I am getting over the experience much faster after reading many of the responses posted!

I'm glad to hear it! Re. taking the pram off backwards - you will get a gold star from me. I've witnessed a young mum push her pram out forward, the front wheels got stuck between the train & platform, momentum of mother tipped the pram right over, not nice! (the saving grace was the bairn was strapped in so didn't end up on the tracks). Also coming off backwards presents a much bigger area to the staff so you are more likely to be seen.

Staff make mistakes, passengers make mistakes, such is life. if we can learn from them it's all to the good. If you raise your concerns then I think FCC will take them seriously (if not passenger focus may be able to help).

I had to give a presentation on reducing accidents at the Platform/Train interface and as has been stated above these account for the majority of passenger accidents - train companies are increasingly taking this on board.

Remember now that you are on the forum we might be able to save you a bob or two on your fares - check out the fares section (wee plug) if you have any questions on that subject?

 

[Linziburns]

Staff make mistakes, passengers make mistakes, such is life. if we can learn from them it's all to the good. If you raise your concerns then I think FCC will take them seriously (if not passenger focus may be able to help).

I had to give a presentation on reducing accidents at the Platform/Train interface and as has been stated above these account for the majority of passenger accidents - train companies are increasingly taking this on board.

Remember now that you are on the forum we might be able to save you a bob or two on your fares - check out the fares section (wee plug) if you have any questions on that subject?

Many thanks for info (and gold star), I'll check that out!

 

[Chapeltom]

Only moderators can lock/close a thread.

 

[Linziburns]

.

Re. 'Trapped in train doors' thread

I had no idea what a debate my post would create when I submitted it earlier! It's been a humbling and educational experience and I'd like to thank everyone who replied. Regardless of whether I agreed or disagreed with the members who posted, you can be certain that I've taken all your comments into deep consideration.

I have no idea how to close a thread, any info on this would be helpful...!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks Chapeltom!

 

[455driver]

Re. taking the pram off backwards - you will get a gold star from me.

+1 from me as well.

 

[Nick W]

I'd urge you to both phone and write in your concern. Phoning tomorrow will allow them to secure information sooner for an investigation while writing in provides a concrete record.

I hope that, if RAIB aren't informed (which will probably be the case as the train didn't move), that FCC will log the accident and sure the station despatch equipment is up to standard.

Is it possible for drivers to leave the train to aid despatch. When I was a car driver, I'd occasionally wind the window down for a better view and on one occasion got out the car multiple times between small movements to make sure I wasn't going to scrape another car who had parked closely.

 

[Temple Meads]

I hope that, if RAIB aren't informed (which will probably be the case as the train didn't move), that FCC will log the accident and sure the station despatch equipment is up to standard.

I wouldn't say this was an "accident" (although it was an accident in terms of not being a purposeful happening, it isn't a collision as such), "incident" seems a better term to me.

 

[causton]

Secondly, I have been told by a DOO driver that someone standing more than a few inches away from the side of the train would not be visible via the ontrain CCTV cameras, can this be confirmed?

As someone who is not a driver, but lives on a DOO route, I can tell you it varies massively. Some platforms you can stand at the yellow line and not be seen on the DOO CCTV at some points of the platforms due to their curvature, some platforms you can see all the way across, some of course don't have CCTV so the driver has a warped mirror or has to look out of the window to see what's going on! Normally whenever I see DOO screens they show 2 to 3 times the width of the distance between the edge and the yellow line however

 

[Chapeltom]

A bit unrelated but I can say from experience being trapped by a door isn't a nice experience! I was stood by a set of doors on a Trans Pennine Express service last year and had an door close on my arm as I was boarding, no the doors weren't shutting at the time, it was before departure. No, I didn't complain, I just accepted it as I'd only slept about 3 hours in 2 days!

 

[A-driver]

If the OP could let us know the station and platform (or trains destination) where this happened then I may be able to expand in the specific dispatch arrangements and any known problems etc. Obviously don't mention the exact time or date. This is assuming it was in the GN route, not the thameslink.

Where monitors are concerned as others have mentioned you can't view all of the doors at once, you scan between so you end up seeing monitor 1 is clear, then monitor 2, then 3, then 4 etc., then start closing the doors and scan past number 1 again only to suddenly see someone getting on or off. It's a real pain, especially on busy trains but short of growing a few more pairs of eyes there is only so much you can do. It's especially bad at stations like st Neots and Huntingdon where you use monitors to self dispatch busy 12 car trains- 24 sets of doors to monitor over 6 different monitors plus swarms of people queuing at the stairs to get off the platform blocking the view.

 

[Zoidberg]

If the OP could let us know the station and platform (or trains destination) where this happened then I may be able to expand in the specific dispatch arrangements and any known problems etc. Obviously don't mention the exact time or date. This is assuming it was in the GN route, not the thameslink.

Post #33 contains some info and we've been told that it was "last week".

Westcoaster - This was at the Littleport station in Cambs., 1248 service from Ely.

 

[jon0844]

It's been years since I've seen a similar incident, at Hatfield, where the driver closed the doors as people were still boarding (I believe it was in the Wagn days!) and it wasn't that the train was crush loaded or anything, there had simply been a lot more people than usual alighting through some of the doors, meaning those on the platform had to wait.

It seems to me rather crazy for a driver of a train that's only 2tph to not bother to let people on simply as so many people got off - and then go off half empty, leaving people to wait 30 minutes for the next train, for the sake of a few seconds. Imagine if they did this at Finsbury Park!!

As it was platform 1, the driver could look out of the window or use the mirrors (as I believe there were then, CCTV being added a lot later) and could only see that there were large crowds by the door. Is it safe to just press the door close button, without even saying anything (okay, maybe the PA system didn't work - who knows!).

Clearly given the recent incidents on FCC, drivers must be a little concerned when they close the doors as people are still trying to get on (when it isn't a case of someone rushing up last minute and trying to hold the doors open). How can a driver clearly see that they're not going to cause an injury? In the above case the train was a 317/1; how could the driver be absolutely sure the doors weren't going to trap an item of clothing in them and drag someone along?

I'll never know why the driver didn't wait a little longer for the doors to become clear - as they would have done with another 10-20 seconds of waiting, or use the PA to tell people to move away, but thankfully I've never seen anything like it since.

Sadly, from what the OP has said, it has happened again.

 

[Linziburns]

Hello again, have just heard back from FCC this week after almost 2 weeks. Nothing unexpected - apologies on behalf of the company and a suggestion that it was either our fault for attempting to leave after the hustle alarm (circumstances re. door alarm not explained in my original letter) or a door fault. However, in direct contradiction, they took the complaint about the driver's lack of attention very seriously (though I hadn't actually elaborated on him very much at all, so this came as a surprise) and said there would be an internal investigation. I'm not to be informed of the outcome which I guess is fairly standard practice. I don't intend to pursue this matter any further; the company has my (and my companion's) complaint on record which will hopefully contribute toward safer standards in the future.

 

[A-driver]

Hello again, have just heard back from FCC this week after almost 2 weeks. Nothing unexpected - apologies on behalf of the company and a suggestion that it was either our fault for attempting to leave after the hustle alarm (circumstances re. door alarm not explained in my original letter) or a door fault. However, in direct contradiction, they took the complaint about the driver's lack of attention very seriously (though I hadn't actually elaborated on him very much at all, so this came as a surprise) and said there would be an internal investigation. I'm not to be informed of the outcome which I guess is fairly standard practice. I don't intend to pursue this matter any further; the company has my (and my companion's) complaint on record which will hopefully contribute toward safer standards in the future.

Well I can confirm that a notice has gone up at all signing on points reminding drivers to check all doors are clear and the driver involved gave his version of events, they will have confirms everything with CCTV and the trains data recorder but the driver wasn't taken off driving duties or anything.

As has already been said, the train wasn't moved, or attempted to be moved, with you in the doors so its not really seen as a serious safety issue.

 

[Linziburns]

A-driver - thanks for letting me know! I'm surprised that they still have the CCTV footage, I was under the impression they only keep it for a week or so. Anyway, I'm glad the driver is still working, it wasn't my intention to have him suspended or anything - though a customer service course wouldn't go amiss - the rest of the journey was absolutely fine.

I realise since all the above was posted, that the train couldn't have moved with such a large blockage which made me feel much better, however I think that getting trapped between any doors, regardless of circumstance, is a safety issue - albeit not a serious one in my case.

 

[biggus]

You never said how far off the train you were.

... And nor did you ask the OP for clarification on this point before responding quite rudely and defensively to her reasonably stated questions.

 

[VauxhallandI]

... And nor did you ask the OP for clarification on this point before responding quite rudely and defensively to her reasonably stated questions.

I'm pretty sure she has explained where she was earlier in the thread and possibly more than once

 

[mr_jrt]

On a similar topic...funny story: I used to get the train from Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston each morning, and when problem caused even a minor delay the delays would snowball and the trains would crush-load as any passengers who would normally miss said train try to cram on it.

Anyway, this happened one day, and I couldn't afford to wait for the next train after mine due to my onward connection from KX, so I jumped in and just managed to make enough room for the doors to close without obstruction. All was well until we got to Euston, and as we were roughly on time, I waited for the vestibule to empty before trying to leave.

When I went to leave however, I was held back. Confused, I looked around and saw my coat was caught in the rubber door seal! I laughed to myself and slowly pulled forward strongly to free it, only to find some buckle or some sort had flared out on the other side.

I began to panic...as whilst I had time for a comfortable walk, I didn't really have time to get this sorted. I slipped off my coat (leaving it hanging there,) and managed to get the attention of station staff who were able to use the guard's key to do a wrong-side release to free my coat.

I can still see the damn thing forlornly hanging there.

 

[jon0844]

It's good that FCC has taken things seriously, and isn't doing anything drastic like suspending the driver.. Seems like a sensible move and it's fair enough that they won't tell you what is going to happen to the people concerned - and that nobody suggested sacking the driver etc.

I do think FCC is quite good at saying one thing and doing another, however. Ironically, in this case it was doing the right thing behind the scenes and giving a pretty poor impression of their intended action to the passenger!

Two examples I've experienced;

I was on an 8-car 321 that was moved on to the fast line due to a delayed slow service, and as such it stopped short at a station (it later transpired that Network Rail, while doing work, had put the stop board too far back). Now I was on the train and saw with my own eyes that the last set of doors were not on the platform and when they opened - there was a sharp drop.

What's more, someone actually jumped down (rather than walk through to the next set of doors) - albeit knowing and seeing the drop first. Obviously nobody got on through these doors!

I reported this to FCC with the time, line and the headcode. Later, they concluded that they'd checked everything and I was mistaken and the train had stopped perfectly fine on the platform. Erm, no.

Stupid me didn't take a photo (or better yet a video to put on YouTube which seems to be in favour at the moment) but I happily asked on their forum if they were calling me a liar.. and they replied that they'd investigate again.

More recently it was me asking if it there was any security risk for having allowed a Chuggs to open in a portacabin on platform 1 at Hatfield, with the only CCTV camera down the platform now being obscured so that the refuge area with the help point was/is totally hidden. Great place for an ambush, and of course smoking and other dodgy activities that are sadly quite common there.

They've since come back saying they'll investigate - but have done absolutely nothing. I asked on their forum a few times and never got a reply as I guess they don't want to admit anything that could make them liable if something bad is to ever happen to someone at the station.

Now I have an email which I am sure will one day be submitted as evidence if there is ever an incident at Hatfield. Okay, so perhaps there's no requirement to cover all of the platform or a help point - but it's odd that they won't come back and say that in their opinion they're doing all they need to and that's it.

FCC has become a very odd company. Still full of people who do an excellent job, but I feel that they're massively let down by other people higher up.

 

[A-driver]

It's good that FCC has taken things seriously, and isn't doing anything drastic like suspending the driver.. Seems like a sensible move and it's fair enough that they won't tell you what is going to happen to the people concerned - and that nobody suggested sacking the driver etc.

I do think FCC is quite good at saying one thing and doing another, however. Ironically, in this case it was doing the right thing behind the scenes and giving a pretty poor impression of their intended action to the passenger!

Two examples I've experienced;

I was on an 8-car 321 that was moved on to the fast line due to a delayed slow service, and as such it stopped short at a station (it later transpired that Network Rail, while doing work, had put the stop board too far back). Now I was on the train and saw with my own eyes that the last set of doors were not on the platform and when they opened - there was a sharp drop.

What's more, someone actually jumped down (rather than walk through to the next set of doors) - albeit knowing and seeing the drop first. Obviously nobody got on through these doors!

I reported this to FCC with the time, line and the headcode. Later, they concluded that they'd checked everything and I was mistaken and the train had stopped perfectly fine on the platform. Erm, no.

Stupid me didn't take a photo (or better yet a video to put on YouTube which seems to be in favour at the moment) but I happily asked on their forum if they were calling me a liar.. and they replied that they'd investigate again.

More recently it was me asking if it there was any security risk for having allowed a Chuggs to open in a portacabin on platform 1 at Hatfield, with the only CCTV camera down the platform now being obscured so that the refuge area with the help point was/is totally hidden. Great place for an ambush, and of course smoking and other dodgy activities that are sadly quite common there.

They've since come back saying they'll investigate - but have done absolutely nothing. I asked on their forum a few times and never got a reply as I guess they don't want to admit anything that could make them liable if something bad is to ever happen to someone at the station.

Now I have an email which I am sure will one day be submitted as evidence if there is ever an incident at Hatfield. Okay, so perhaps there's no requirement to cover all of the platform or a help point - but it's odd that they won't come back and say that in their opinion they're doing all they need to and that's it.

FCC has become a very odd company. Still full of people who do an excellent job, but I feel that they're massively let down by other people higher up.

If you mean the coffee stall on the up platform next to the ticket hall (country end of the station) then the area south of it is covered by CCTV as the DOO cameras pick up that area and they are also recorded.

 

[jon0844]

These still leave an area that isn't covered (also the camera you mention would be obscured by the vending machines). Let's say someone is attacked by a group of people there; no CCTV will be able to see what actually happens in the blind spot (and it's quite a large area for the benefit of anyone who hasn't been there). This could make it harder to secure a conviction given how everyone would deny everything.

As this is the area with the help point, if anyone did have to run there in an emergency, this is exactly where they'll end up - off camera. If the help point was moved, this area wouldn't be so important (besides being wise not to stand that late at night - even if it is sheltered and warm!)

I accept it's not a massive risk and I'm not making a big deal of the situation. I merely asked a few times because I had concerns and wanted to hear their side - which is to 'take a look' as if they aren't aware (they certainly didn't tell me what you just did in about 10 minutes!).

I don't hold out much hope that they'll do anything as they've still not taken a look at the speakers not working properly (too quiet and distorted) on platform 2/3 - for almost two years!!! There isn't even a speaker further down the platform (3) where the trains actually stop so with just one announcement 20 seconds (or so) before, anyone with a visual impairment better run!

I know I'm a little petty but I've got relatives that are both visually impaired and deaf, so I've always taken an interest in accessibility issues.

 

[Skoodle]

On the London Overground Class 378s we used to have a problem with passengers pressing the door close button as they exited the train. This sounds the hustle alarm and then begins to close the doors. As you can imagine there were often people walking up to the cab accusing the driver of not looking. This is why the door close buttons no longer work on Overground trains.

 

[maniacmartin]

On the London Overground Class 378s we used to have a problem with passengers pressing the door close button as they exited the train. This sounds the hustle alarm and then begins to close the doors. As you can imagine there were often people walking up to the cab accusing the driver of not looking. This is why the door close buttons no longer work on Overground trains.

I did wonder why they didn't work. I presumed it was so passengers didn't close the doors early when another passenger was attempting to board, causing the other passenger to miss the train. The unfortunate side effect is a chilly breeze on a winter's day

 

[Skimble19]

Although luckily the majority of doors seem to close by themselves after 30 seconds (or so) when on a long station stop.

 

[michael769]

I would be interested to know what laws require ToCs to fully cover stations with CCTV, or which court precedents establish that failing to do so breaches the TOCs duty of care?

I can understand peoples desire to see good coverage on stations, but am dubious about the idea that a ToC could be held liable for the actions of a criminal just because a CCTV does not have sight of the in ident.