Trapped in train doors

[Linziburns]

Hello, last week I got trapped in train doors along with my friend's double buggy (complete with 16 month old twins) which was stuck half on and half off the train (First Capital Connect). We were attempting to exit the train at the time and not taking an excessively long time to do it. After attempting to force the doors slightly, my friend was able to pull the pushchair out and I managed to free myself. We were stuck for around 50 seconds (approx). When I approached the driver, he informed me that passengers have 20 seconds to exit the train. When I said 20 seconds was insufficient time to manoeuvre a large buggy with children and bags onto this particular platform (very large gap between train and platform to negotiate), he indicated that as he was situated in the driver's cab, he was unable to view exiting passengers - the inference being that if passengers did not exit within the allotted 20 seconds, it was hardly his fault if a problem occurred. There appeared to be no other staff around.

I would like to know:

1. Why the doors didn't reopen when such a large obstacle was detected
2. Why the driver wasn't aware that the doors were still open and check for problems
3. How the driver could close the doors without first checking that passengers were clear
4. Does FCC actually hold a 20 second exit policy?!!!
5. Who can I approach to make a formal complaint other than FCC?
6. What can I expect from FCC in response to my complaint (investigation, apology, etc)?

I informed FCC on the day of the incident via email but have not yet received a response.

Would be grateful for any information, many thanks

 

[pemma]

What service were you travelling on? FCC have a mixture of fairly old and new rolling stock so what happens when something jams in the doors may vary between trains.

 

[Starmill]

I was under the impression that ALL FCC services were DOO*, so that about him not being able to see you exiting is utter balderdash.

More knowledgeable people will be along to clarify this shortly, but, if this is true, I can expect the response will be summarised as "That's rubbish"

*i.e. there is no guard to release/close the doors

 

[Mojo]

1. Why the doors didn't reopen when such a large obstacle was detected

Because otherwise trains would never leave the station.

2. Why the driver wasn't aware that the doors were still open and check for problems

He was. The train cannot move until all doors are closed and interlock received. There is a pilot light in the cab to indicate this.

3. How the driver could close the doors without first checking that passengers were clear

Sounds like he did. Doors open, customers get off, customers get on, and if nobody is still waiting the doors are then closed.

4. Does FCC actually hold a 20 second exit policy?!!!

I am not aware of any policy (although I do not work for Capital Connect). If there is nobody waiting to board then surely it's time to go?

5. Who can I approach to make a formal complaint other than FCC?
6. What can I expect from FCC in response to my complaint (investigation, apology, etc)?

What are you expecting to get out of it? How do you propose something doesn't happen again, and what would you do if you were the Driver/Train Operator?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was under the impression that ALL FCC services were DOO*, so that about him not being able to see you exiting is utter balderdash.

I am not aware of any train, rules, or camera/mirror setup that allows Drivers/Train Operators to see anything other than the platform and an external view of the train's doors. This would not show anything inside the train (including exiting customers).

There are some train stocks that allow the Driver/Train Operator to see pictures from the saloon cameras, but these would not be used as part of the dispatch procedure or other station duties.

 

[GarethW]

Mojo - I'm afraid I feel your response to the OP does neither you nor the forum any credit.

The flippant and dismissive tone throughout to what we must take on face value to be a traumatic experience for the OP is not justified.

 

[the sniper]

Mojo - I'm afraid I feel your response to the OP does neither you nor the forum any credit.

The flippant and dismissive tone throughout to what we must take on face value to be a traumatic experience for the OP is not justified.

When did RailUK become the Customer Relations/Appeasement department for First Capital Connect?

 

[BestWestern]

Hello, and welcome to the forum!

Sorry that you had a bad, and doubtless quite frightening, experience on the railway. To answer a few of your questions -

FCC uses 'Driver Only Operation' (DOO) which means, as you know already, that the Driver opens and closes the doors. There is no Guard in charge of the train like there is on many other services. The system uses different equipment in different places; sometimes the Driver might watch a TV screen showing images from cameras along the platform, sometimes he might have a mirror alongside his window from which he should be able to see the platform, and at larger stations there will be platform staff who dispatch the train and light up a sign to tell him when to close the doors and leave. I don't know the FCC network particularly well, but it sounds like your station did not have dispatch staff, who would/should have been able to see you exiting the train. Where the Driver has only a screen or mirror, he will close the doors when he can no longer see anybody boarding or alighting from the train. If you are just about to step off, it may not be obvious from the view that he has. However, he DOES know that the doors are still open and ha cannot move the train until they are securely closed - other than the doors themselves closing on you, you were not in any danger, i.e. the train would not have moved.

As for obstacle detection, it depends on the train you were travelling on. FCC's fleet is varied, and while some of the newer trains will have detection, others will not. It's jargon, but I would hazard a guess your train was a 'Class 313' or 'Class 319'. These are old trains with doors which simply slide closed, rather than the newer types where the doors 'pop out' from the train and then slide. These older trains do not have obstacle detection, and so the doors will continue to try and close on anything in the way unless the Driver reopens them.

I would stick with approaching FCC with any complaint, as I don't think there has been any sufficient safety issue for higher bodies to be concerned about. The train did not move, the doors DID operate in the usual way, and it is highly likely that the Driver DID perform his duties in the correct manner - that is, he didn't see you and closed the doors because his view led him to believe that they were clear. Whether his attitude was appropriate or not is another matter, but his apparent suggestion that the doors will close after 20 seconds regardless of what is happening is incorrect.

I hope that goes some way to helping!

 

[bunnahabhain]

Mojo - I'm afraid I feel your response to the OP does neither you nor the forum any credit.

The flippant and dismissive tone throughout to what we must take on face value to be a traumatic experience for the OP is not justified.

I don't feel there is anything wrong with Mojo's response. Its stating facts, and if they are hard to take then perhaps the original poster should have been a bit quicker at getting off the train. 20 seconds is a long time, but it can be very short if you aren't prepared to get off the train before it arrives at the station, I've seen many people overcarried simply because they remain seated until the train comes to a stand.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Gareth, as more of a lurker on here, i agree with your comments. No doubt i will get banned for the following, but that is the attitude i would have expected from Bob Crowe, that well known dinosaur.

 

[Linziburns]

Mojo - perhaps I should have made my questions simpler.

Why did the doors not reopen..? - If there is no obstruction, the train is free to leave. If there is an obstruction, someone needs to clear it in order to avoid a serious incident.

Why was the driver not aware..? - If he was aware, why did he not investigate? Also many online reports re. people being dragged after being stuck between train doors suggests that the train can and do leave with doors ajar.

How could driver close doors..? - Since we were exiting the train well before the the 'doors closing' tone sounded and were particularly visible with large buggy, etc, I feel very confident in saying that I feel that the driver did not make a check. If he had, surely he would have waited.

Does FFC hold...? - If there are persons attempting to leave the train and are in plain view both on and off the train, it is definitely not time to go!

Who do I complain to? - No reply

What can I expect..? - If I knew what to expect, I wouldn't need to ask.

I'm afraid I found your reply quite unhelpful and patronising.

 

[Nick W]

Welcome to the forum. I would be very much concerned if a driver shut the doors while a person or objects were between the train doors. Therefore I'd like to ask two questions to ensure I have a clearer understanding.

1. Were you next to the door or in a queue of people waiting to get off the train when the train stopped?
2. Did you begin getting off the train before or after the door closing alarm sounded?

Thanks!

 

[Linziburns]

Jamie - we were ready to exit this train and standing by the doors, ready. After other people had alighted before us we then attempted to leave ourselves. As there is a particularly large gap between the train and platform, we travelled in the first compartment where this gap is slightly smaller, however it is still difficult to negotiate with the pushchair.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nick - there were a few people in front of us but not a long queue. We were half way off by the time the 'doors closing' tone sounded. Thanks

 

[asylumxl]

Why did the doors not reopen..?

It's usually assumed the jam is temporary and the person will move out the way, and if not the doors are usually reopened then closed again.

Why was the driver not aware..?

It can't leave. There is a safety system called "interlock" which prevents the train from moving while the doors are open. The stories you read are probably exaggerated. Usually it's something small like clothing or a bag strap which is too small to detect.

How could driver close doors..?

In all honesty, the driver may be in a hurry to keep the timetable. Unfortunately staff are pressed by their employers to do so. Is it right? Depends on your viewpoint. There is truth in what Mojo says, as otherwise the train would never leave.

Who do I complain to?

First Capital Connect via their website. Express your views, but be skillful and polite when you do.

What can I expect..?

If you are concerned about safety then you shouldn't expect something really.

Also, depending on the stations layout, the visibility may be less than ideal. You mention a large gap. Some platforms such as Elephant and Castle P4 have this issue due to the curvature of the platform. I don't know if this is the station in question but worth noting.

 

[Starmill]

Clearly Mojo has immediately proven me wrong.

When you say that you were not taking an "excessively long" time to exit the train, I assumed that you were faster than perhaps was the case. Indeed, as other members know better than I, the driver would simply check by whatever means are provided that nobody is boarding or alighting. (I once saw an excellent video produced by or possibly for First Cap Connect showing the (four?) different ways the drivers might close the doors, an excellent summary of which was just provided by BestWestern.) If you were not visibly doing either after all other passengers had done so, the driver would have closed the doors and thought no more of it. I think that's what he means by "If there is nobody waiting to board then surely it's time to go?" et cetera...

Perhaps our definitions of "excessive" time differ; did any passengers board or attempt to do so at your doors? If travelling on FCC again, I would suggest that, if you expect it to take you some time to disembark, to make sure everything (luggage, prams, coats - whatever) is ready while the train is braking. If the driver can see you half way on to the platform, they won't close the doors on to you, regardless of how long its taking you

Personally, I think that this is just another illustration of why DOO should not be used, but that's a whole other debate...

 

[DavyCrocket]

On LU train operators should re open the doors. Platform train interface issues such as this are taken rather seriously with trains being checked to make find out if the hustle alarm and door close speed are working normally and station CCTV viewed.

It is of course possible (I'd say more than likely) that as you were leaving the train you were not seen by the driver. The equipment used is mirrors and CCTV monitors in most cases and by the time your pushchair had popped through the doors, reaction time, action time to reopen the doors and then the doors reopening it could be a few seconds.

As someone who uses an airport station a lot to commute, most of the time there are no issues but I sometimes have to hold the door open so that people can still get off and more importantly I get on!

 

[PauloDavesi]

Hi Linziburns,

Very sorry that some of the industry operatives here have such a negative attitude to customers. I'm not an industry insider btw.

You might find this link helpful http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/customer-care/talk-to-us/

If you still don't get a reply there are other routes to getting your complaint dealt with.

 

[Mojo]

Mojo - I'm afraid I feel your response to the OP does neither you nor the forum any credit.

The flippant and dismissive tone throughout to what we must take on face value to be a traumatic experience for the OP is not justified.

What would you like me to say then? I'm not here to be sympathetic to people and judge them on an incident that may, or may not, have been their fault (I was not there).

Why did the doors not reopen..? - If there is no obstruction, the train is free to leave. If there is an obstruction, someone needs to clear it in order to avoid a serious incident.

I do not understand. Reopening the doors is a manual process. The Driver would push the buttons again to reopen the doors. In the majority of cases, the obstruction clears itself; there is no point in reopening the doors, because that would cause further delay.

Why was the driver not aware..? - If he was aware, why did he not investigate? Also many online reports re. people being dragged after being stuck between train doors suggests that the train can and do leave with doors ajar.

I wasn't there; I cannot say what the Driver saw. I do not understand the relevance of the train moving off. You say you had time to speak with the driver which suggests he obviously did try and carry out some sort of investigation.

How could driver close doors..? - Since we were exiting the train well before the the 'doors closing' tone sounded and were particularly visible with large buggy, etc, I feel very confident in saying that I feel that the driver did not make a check. If he had, surely he would have waited.

I'm not quite sure how

Does FFC hold...? - If there are persons attempting to leave the train and are in plain view both on and off the train, it is definitely not time to go!

If there was a 'plain view.' You never said how far off the train you were.

 

[snail]

20 seconds is a long time, but it can be very short if you aren't prepared to get off the train before it arrives at the station, I've seen many people overcarried simply because they remain seated until the train comes to a stand.

Have you (or Mojo) ever tried getting a buggy off a train while other passengers are trying to leave or board?

Given recent incidents of trains leaving without proper checking that all is clear I would hope FCC give the proper weight to this kind of incident and remind their drivers to be more sympathetic. I think that's all the OP can reasonably hope for.

 

[rebmcr]

many online reports re. people being dragged after being stuck between train doors suggests that the train can and do leave with doors ajar.

In the UK there are safety lock-outs in place — even if the driver pushes his control handle to full power, if the door interlock is in place then the train will refuse to budge.

 

[Linziburns]

Asylumxl - I was very polite in my email to FCC. I am concerned re. safety - my question 'what can I expect' was more directed toward 'can I expect a response from FCC' etc, I don't expect anything more than that. I should have made this clearer, sorry!

 

[BestWestern]

Asylumxl - I was very polite in my email to FCC. I am concerned re. safety - my question 'what can I expect' was more directed toward 'can I expect a response from FCC' etc, I don't expect anything more than that. I should have made this clearer, sorry!

I would imagine you'll get a letter essentially apologising and saying they'll 'look into it', and so on. I would suggest being persistent enough to get some travel vouchers out of them, most train operators are quite happy to give them out.

Forgive me if I missed it in an earlier post, but I assume there were no complaints of being injured etc, just that you're concerned about the situation?

 

[pendolino]

I would like to know:

1. Why the doors didn't reopen when such a large obstacle was detected

On plenty of older trains, the doors will not automatically 'bounce back' if an obstacle is detected. If the driver can't get interlock having tried to close the doors then he can press the 'doors open' buttons in the cab again but all this will do is activate the door open buttons in the passenger saloon, he/she can't actually open the doors, if that makes sense. Which means that if you find yourself in this position again you will need to press the 'door open' button again to open the door.

Not having been there I can't say whether the driver saw you or not, but some drivers are less careful than others, and some of the equipment provided for driver only despatch is not always the best. But I'm sorry you had this experience, and hope it doesn't put you off train travel.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I sometimes have to hold the door open so that people can still get off and more importantly I get on!

You re putting yourself at risk from being trapped in the train doors yourself behaving like that. Not only stupid idiotic behaviour but downright dangerous. And i will not tolerate anyone doing this on my train. Besides it is regarded as malicious interference with a train and carries a prison sentence.

Now for the op, i have children myself, and i know of incidents where families have been separated by despatch incident, which is what this will be classified as and investigated. Any driver or guard must be able to see the whole train and must check the doors are clear before they close the doors, there will be mirrors and cameras to help with viewing in doo areas. There is no actual time limit imposed, that is complete nonsense. Of course you need to raise this with the operator ideally in writing. Make sure you are clear on the date time and location it occurred and do it fast as on train cctv is usually kept for only 2 weeks before it is wiped. This is a limitation of the on board equipment.

Should any individual find themselves in a similar position use the alarm handle immediately. That way the train crew will know something is amiss and will immediately halt the despatch process.

 

[Linziburns]

I do not understand. Reopening the doors is a manual process. The Driver would push the buttons again to reopen the doors. In the majority of cases, the obstruction clears itself; there is no point in reopening the doors, because that would cause further delay.

Since this is my first experience of getting caught in train doors, I assumed they would react similar to lift doors and reopen if obstructed. If an obstruction does not clear itself and almost a minute later (as in this instance) the doors are still open, surely it's time to check for problems in order to avoid further delay. If the train is unable to leave because doors are open, it would be prudent for the driver to figure out what the problem is straight away rather than waiting for an obstruction to 'clear itself'.

I wasn't there; I cannot say what the Driver saw.

Yet in your original post you indicated 'He was [aware that doors were open]. The train cannot move until all doors are closed and interlock received. There is a pilot light in the cab to indicate this.' I suggested that since there are reports of people being dragged down the platform after becoming stuck in the doors, trains are able to move regardless of the doors being ajar which was the relevance of my comment re. the train moving off.

You say you had time to speak with the driver which suggests he obviously did try and carry out some sort of investigation.

The driver only spoke with me after I knocked on his window. Since you have already volunteered the information 'I wasn't there; I cannot say what the Driver saw', how can you be so certain that he 'obviously did try and carry out some sort of investigation'?

If there was a 'plain view.' You never said how far off the train you were.

I wasn't specific regarding this fact in my original post, my apologies for not being clearer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bestwestern - Yes, apart from strained shoulders from attempting to dislodge the buggy and an overall unpleasant experience, nobody was injured. I'm anxious that steps be taken to ensure that this does not happen to anyone else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Pendolino - I did frantically tap the 'open doors' button but unfortunately it didn't respond.

 

[pendolino]

You re putting yourself at risk from being trapped in the train doors yourself behaving like that. Not only stupid idiotic behaviour but downright dangerous. And i will not tolerate anyone doing this on my train. Besides it is regarded as malicious interference with a train and carries a prison sentence.

So what do you suggest a passenger does if they and others are trying to alight/board when the doors start to close? I don't mean those who run onto the platform as the doors are closing, but those who are actively boarding/alighting when the hustle alarm sounds because the driver/guard hasn't checked adequately?

 

[Linziburns]

Gimmea50anyday - Many thanks for your checklist! I'll make sure to mail off a hard copy of my email re the 20 second limit blah. I'd not thought of the CCTV, the company can view the entire incident! Also, I would have pulled the emergency cord if I could have reached it!! Though I appreciate why they can't have too many of those situated around the compartments!

 

[pendolino]

Pendolino - I did frantically tap the 'open doors' button but unfortunately it didn't respond.

In that case it sounds like the driver hadn't released the doors again. I agree with you that there have been cases where people have been dragged along the platform, but as far as I am aware these have all been where the doors are actually shut but with a handbag strap or finger etc. trapped that the rubber seals have moulded themselves around. Rest assured that if you are stuck in the door with a buggy, the train will not be able to move.

 

[westcoaster]

Where abouts did this happen.

 

[Anon Mouse]

So what do you suggest a passenger does if they and others are trying to alight/board when the doors start to close? I don't mean those who run onto the platform as the doors are closing, but those who are actively boarding/alighting when the hustle alarm sounds because the driver/guard hasn't checked adequately?

to wait until the doors shut and press the alarm. Holding doors open while they are closing is very dangerous and is interfering with the operation of the train. The Guard (Driver on DOO) cannot see what is happening at every door and certainly not inside the train. Far too many people think its acceptable to hold the doors open as there freinds are still on the footbridge grabbing a coffee, want to continuie there conversaton/snog/whatever. It is not always our fault if someone decides they want to leave as the doors are closing.

 

[pendolino]

to wait until the doors shut and press the alarm. Holding doors open while they are closing is very dangerous and is interfering with the operation of the train. The Guard (Driver on DOO) cannot see what is happening at every door and certainly not inside the train. Far too many people think its acceptable to hold the doors open as there freinds are still on the footbridge grabbing a coffee, want to continuie there conversaton/snog/whatever. It is not always our fault if someone decides they want to leave as the doors are closing.

If the guard/driver/person in charge of despatch cannot see that all the doors are clear, they should not attempt to close the doors. It's in the Rule Book, it's unequivocal.