Most under-developed rail corridor? (examples)

[sprinterguy]

When the "Trans-Pennine" dmus took over from steam on the Hull-Liverpool route in January 1961, they also introduced diesel engines on the Newcastle-Liverpool route.

I think there were 3 or 4 a day from Newcastle to Liverpool, and vv, and certainly one of these, the 3.16pm from Newcastle, went via the Durham Coast.

Ah, you misunderstand me – I am not questioning your recollections of the Trans-pennine services in the 1960s: In fact, I would like to thank you for providing a fascinating first hand account of the operations from my parent’s generation that I have read and heard so much about. I was only saying that it is not quite right that the only Transpennine services on the Durham Coast after the introduction of the “Express” network in the nineties and early 2000s were those that ran to Sunderland from Liverpool via Newcastle.

 

[Welshman]

Ah - I see what you meant.
I'm sorry I did misunderstand you.

 

[tbtc]

As for the buses the route 97/98 (which passes Dore station) are provided by First South Yorkshire and have a combinded service of every 7-8 minutes during the day, However nearly every public transport passenger in Sheffield & South Yorkshire are Anti-First Group.

The 97 and 98 are every twenty minutes each. Not sure about nearly every public transport passenger in Sheffield & South Yorkshire being Anti-First Group, since passenger numbers have gone up 17% in the last six months or so (i.e. since the October changes).

As far as I know it was only Sunderland that lost the Transpennine service and this ran via Newcastle, a Transpennine Service never ran down the Durham Coast as far I know, however there was a debate about running some Transpennine/Crosscountry sevices via the Durham Coast, but i've never heard anything more of it. Middlesbrough still has a Transpennine service though.

In general you are correct - Sunderland's Transpennine service was a bi-hourly extension of the Liverpool to Newcastle service, however there was also a smattering of Transpennine services from Manchester Airport that ran the full length of the Durham Coast route to terminate at Newcastle. I remember there being one on a Saturday morning. Extensions of the Middlesbrough service, I presume.

You're right - but they did run down the Durham Coast in the days when they were simply Trans-Pennine services, and not "Trans-Pennine Express" services!

As well as regular services from Sunderland to York/ Leeds/ Manchester via Newcastle and a token long distance service via Hartlepool/ Yarm, there were also bi-hourly trains from Hexham - Newcastle - Sunderland - Yarm - York in ATN days (filling the gaps between the longer distance services).

Maybe it's just my view, but I think that the coastal route has a lot of potential.

 

[sprinterguy]

As well as regular services from Sunderland to York/ Leeds/ Manchester via Newcastle and a token long distance service via Hartlepool/ Yarm, there were also bi-hourly trains from Hexham - Newcastle - Sunderland - Yarm - York in ATN days (filling the gaps between the longer distance services).

Maybe it's just my view, but I think that the coastal route has a lot of potential.

I am in agreement with you. Crikey, were the Newcastle to York services via the Durham Coast really bi-hourly? I certainly remember there being some in Northern Spirit/ATN days, but I didn't realise that they were that regular!

In terms of service frequency, the section of the Durham Coast route between Hartlepool and Thornaby has not changed much in many, many years - Since the introduction of Pacers in the eighties, certainly. It did not lose much come the introduction of the Metro to Sunderland in 2002 in this regard, but that, it can be argued, is only because it had very little to lose to begin with due to it's basic service provision!

However, where the Metro extension has been to the detriment of the Durham Coast route has been the "dumbing down" of the service in terms of the number of destinations served - As well as the York services, I also remember some going through to Nunthorpe and occasionally, on Sundays primarily, all the way to Whitby. The Sunderland Metro extension, while having provided a dramatic increase in capacity between Sunderland and Newcastle that has proved very popular amongst passengers (I have difficulty envisaging how the number of passengers who now travel from intermediate stations between Sunderland and Heworth would ever have been accomodated on the old service of essentially two Pacers per hour), has also served to ensure that there is now very little scope to improve the level of service on the rest of the Durham Coast route above the basic level that has been perpetuated for many years.

 

[LE Greys]

Well, not counting the obvious ones that aren't there at all, I'll run down some of my ideas, but only briefly. The Lincoln Joint Line is pretty shocking. When they rebuilt Whitemoor Yard, they should have looked at reconnecting to Spalding, allowing goods trains to avoid Peterborough altogether if possible. The biggest stumbling block is the Lincoln Avoiding Line (or rather the lack of it) and some way of reinstating it would be a very good idea.

Other 'rationalised' lines, downgraded by BR, also need significant work. Project Evergreen and the current Cotswold upgrades show the way to go, but there is still work to do with both. The Chiltern Main Line is nearly back to main line standard, but it's not finished yet ('finished' means a 100 mph railway). The Cotswold and Golden Valley lines have yet to catch up with this, some sections are still single-track, and obviously Waterloo-Exeter needs significant work to reach anything like this standard.

The most under-developed main line would be Norwich-Liverpool Street. This could provide a 90-minute regular service to Norwich, also taking on a lot more container traffic, but it depends on significant quadrupling, Romford-Colchester at least, plus upgrades to allow 110 mph running.

Our two remaining 110 mph main lines, the Berks & Hants and MML, need significant work to bring them up to standard (by which I mean 125 with the option of tilt). It's been promised for the MML, but not the Berks & Hants, let alone the entire route to Penzance.

As can be seen from HS2, the WCML upgrade and so on, it's all to easy to build big, showy lines to big cities, but not so easy to serve smaller areas. However, I've always thought that it is important to guarantee universal service to the smaller towns.

 

[s'land]

I am in agreement with you. Crikey, were the Newcastle to York services via the Durham Coast really bi-hourly? I certainly remember there being some in Northern Spirit/ATN days, but I didn't realise that they were that regular!

In terms of service frequency, the section of the Durham Coast route between Hartlepool and Thornaby has not changed much in many, many years - Since the introduction of Pacers in the eighties, certainly. It did not lose much come the introduction of the Metro to Sunderland in 2002 in this regard, but that, it can be argued, is only because it had very little to lose to begin with due to it's basic service provision!

However, where the Metro extension has been to the detriment of the Durham Coast route has been the "dumbing down" of the service in terms of the number of destinations served - As well as the York services, I also remember some going through to Nunthorpe and occasionally, on Sundays primarily, all the way to Whitby. The Sunderland Metro extension, while having provided a dramatic increase in capacity between Sunderland and Newcastle that has proved very popular amongst passengers (I have difficulty envisaging how the number of passengers who now travel from intermediate stations between Sunderland and Heworth would ever have been accomodated on the old service of essentially two Pacers per hour), has also served to ensure that there is now very little scope to improve the level of service on the rest of the Durham Coast route above the basic level that has been perpetuated for many years.

My view is that the Metro should never have used the Durham Coast Line between Sunderland and Newcastle, it should have instead used either an new line altogether or used an existing track bed, but maybe this should be dicussed in it's own tread not this one.

 

[LE Greys]

My view is that the Metro should never have used the Durham Coast Line between Sunderland and Newcastle, it should have instead used either an new line altogether or used an existing track bed, but maybe this should be dicussed in it's own tread not this one.

The obvious one being the Leamside, I suppose. Personally, I don't mind light rail and heavy rail sharing tracks, provided they don't use incompatible equipment. So they should have either electrified it with 3rd rail, or built 25kV Metro units with some form of transformer. The first is probably less expensive, and doesn't totally preclude dual-electrification one day.

 

[Bevan Price]

What surprises me is that (whilst there's not a lot of paths south of Bolton for additional Manchester - Blackburn services) there's been no attempt to switch the services at Blackburn into

• Manchester - Blackburn - Burnley - Colne
• Blackpool South - Preston - Blackburn - Colne

That would give Burnley/ Altricham a regular service to Manchester. Presumably this would require an extra DMU though, so the services are being run more for operational convenience than for passenger demand.

At least those in East Lancashire are getting the chord at Todmorden (£8.8 million quid for half a mile makes Crossrail look cheap...) which will give Altricham/ Burnley a direct link to Rochdale/ Manchester next year, so there's some light at the end of the tunnel. And whilst there's little prospect of improvement at the Blackpool South end, the electrification to Blackpool North will mean more capacity on that line (longer EMUs replacing Pacers/ Sprinters).

As previously discussed, SELRAP seems a real waste of time, in terms of all the other things we could be spending money on.

To some extent, East & Central Lancashire suffered from neglect, even before the Marples - Beeching closures, with irregular / infrequent services. However, back in 1952, you could travel (by steam) from Accrington to Manchester Victoria in 40 minutes, calling only at Salford (57 mins from Burnley Central, 71 mins from Colne.) That was just one train per day, but a few trains took about 45 to 47 mins, from Accrington, if they called at Ramsbottom, Bury Bolton St. and / or Clifton Junction.
A main problem with the Bury/Ramsbottom - Accrington line was that it ran near the foot of a valley, whilst most of the people lived on the hillside near the top of the valley, so intermediate stations (Helmshore, Haslingden, Baxenden) could not compete with frequent buses running near the houses.

If there were unlimited funds and I was in control, I would reorganise services in the area as follows.

1. Redouble & electrify Kirkham to a new Blackpool Central station. 2 trains per hour, one calling at St. Annes, Lytham, Kirkham, Preston, Chorley, Bolton, Manchester stations; the other would call all stations to Manchester Victoria.

2. 1 train per hour, Preston, all stations to Rose Grove, then to Burnley Manchester Road, Todmorden, Rochdale & Manchester Victoria.
(Blackpool - Bradford/Leeds/York to continue as now, but track over Copy Pit line improved to allow speeds up to 75 mph)

3. Redouble Bolton - Blackburn (apart from the troublesome Sough Tunnel).
1 train per hour Manchester - Clitheroe (as now)
1 train per hour Manchester Victoria - Bolton, then Darwen, Blackburn, Accrington, Rose Grove & then all stations to Colne. (With good connections to/from Preston at Rose Grove.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Weird to think that the transpennine services used to be 4-5 tpd on each leg- now it's 1tph on each with 4tph through the core! Still get misty-eyed about the Peaks & 47s though!

Going back to the original topic question I'd suggest Huddersfield-Sheffield in terms of the amount of potential use that's discouraged by the slow, hourly, (almost) all-shacks service... Not to mention the lengthy detour via Barnsley!

 

[Welshman]

Weird to think that the transpennine services used to be 4-5 tpd on each leg- now it's 1tph on each with 4tph through the core! Still get misty-eyed about the Peaks & 47s though!

Going back to the original topic question I'd suggest Huddersfield-Sheffield in terms of the amount of potential use that's discouraged by the slow, hourly, (almost) all-shacks service... Not to mention the lengthy detour via Barnsley!

Agreed.

You used to be able to leave Huddersfield at 1042, and be in Sheffield Victoria at 1134. On the return you could leave Sheffield at 1752 and be back in Huddersfield at 1850.

Several other services took around 1 hour, with a change at Penistone into/out of the DC electric service to Sheffield Victoria.

But that was back in the 1960s - we've progressed now.

 

[tbtc]

What about Portsmouth - Southampton?

Around twenty miles if you drive, around an hour if you sit on a train - not very frequent either.

Agreed.

You used to be able to leave Huddersfield at 1042, and be in Sheffield Victoria at 1134. On the return you could leave Sheffield at 1752 and be back in Huddersfield at 1850.

Several other services took around 1 hour, with a change at Penistone into/out of the DC electric service to Sheffield Victoria.

But that was back in the 1960s - we've progressed now.

Are those two examples quoted for the fastest services of the day? What was the duration of other journeys.

Nowadays we have an hourly service taking roughly 1h15 - including "padding" - but I don't have an old timetable to compare frequencies.

 

[Goatboy]

What about Portsmouth - Southampton?

Around twenty miles if you drive, around an hour if you sit on a train - not very frequent either.

Not very frequent? Two trains per hour, three if you change at Havant. One train per hour takes 38 minutes.

 

[30907]

Are those two examples quoted for the fastest services of the day? What was the duration of other journeys.

Nowadays we have an hourly service taking roughly 1h15 - including "padding" - but I don't have an old timetable to compare frequencies.

Just looked at the summer 58 NER timetable.

Journey times from Huddersfield to Sheffield Vic with good connections at Penistone took 60-70 minutes. The South Yorkshireman to/from Marylebone took about 50 mins as did the other fast train (early afternoon both ways). A quick count suggests 11 stopping trains between Penistone and H'field.

 

[Welshman]

Are those two examples quoted for the fastest services of the day? What was the duration of other journeys.

Nowadays we have an hourly service taking roughly 1h15 - including "padding" - but I don't have an old timetable to compare frequencies.

They were. If my memory serves me well, it was just over an hour for the other journeys.
Huddersfield- Penistone all stops was about 35-40 minutes [a little longer than now as the "newer" units have better accelleration than steam/the 1st gen.dmus], then approx. 10 minutes to change trains, and then the much faster part of the journey[cf. today's detour via Barnsley] - the 15 minute sprint to Sheffield Victoria on the Woodhead line.

Although there wasn't a clockface timetable, connections were roughly hourly.

Edit - Ah, I see 30907 has provided the answer!

 

[tbtc]

Not very frequent? Two trains per hour, three if you change at Havant. One train per hour takes 38 minutes.

In the South East, I'd call that not very frequent, yes.

For two cities twenty miles apart, with a combined population of almost half a million, that's not a great service either - and a Class 450 too.

Looks like a case of "it doesn't go into London, so its not an important enough service".

Just looked at the summer 58 NER timetable.

Journey times from Huddersfield to Sheffield Vic with good connections at Penistone took 60-70 minutes. The South Yorkshireman to/from Marylebone took about 50 mins as did the other fast train (early afternoon both ways). A quick count suggests 11 stopping trains between Penistone and H'field.

They were. If my memory serves me well, it was just over an hour for the other journeys.
Huddersfield- Penistone all stops was about 35-40 minutes [a little longer than now as the "newer" units have better accelleration than steam/the 1st gen.dmus], then approx. 10 minutes to change trains, and then the much faster part of the journey[cf. today's detour via Barnsley] - the 15 minute sprint to Sheffield Victoria on the Woodhead line.

Although there wasn't a clockface timetable, connections were roughly hourly.

Edit - Ah, I see 30907 has provided the answer!

Thanks both

 

[LE Greys]

In the South East, I'd call that not very frequent, yes.

For two cities twenty miles apart, with a combined population of almost half a million, that's not a great service either - and a Class 450 too.

Looks like a case of "it doesn't go into London, so its not an important enough service".

And a bloomin awkward route because of the river. I think they couldn't put the bridge any further down, either because of river traffic (although a swing bridge might have helped there) or because the ground was too marshy. Whatever the reason, the river doesn't help anyone.

 

[Goatboy]

In the South East, I'd call that not very frequent, yes.

For two cities twenty miles apart, with a combined population of almost half a million, that's not a great service either - and a Class 450 too.

Looks like a case of "it doesn't go into London, so its not an important enough service".

Hmm, I disagree. It's not really the South East for a start and the service frequency seems adaquete. I used to commute on that particular line and had few complaints about service frequency.

 

[billio]

I'd nominate the carnforth to skipton to leeds line. Going from North Lancashire or South Cumbria to Leeds or York is absolutely horrid - that's if you can find a train! Most people do it by road. Considering Leeds is now a major city, and there is a very good double line already in place, it's a disgrace that there's only a few very slow and painful NR trains. A decent rail service would really open up opportunities for people to work in Leeds rather than having to travel down to Manchester or up to Carlisle.

It would also help if it was possible to change at Carnforth on to a service to Kendal and Windermere.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

The 97 and 98 are every twenty minutes each. Not sure about nearly every public transport passenger in Sheffield & South Yorkshire being Anti-First Group, since passenger numbers have gone up 17% in the last six months or so (i.e. since the October changes).

People only use First now as the penny has dropped after all these years and they know that their rip-off fares are not working, as for Dore railway services their are still a large number of people who still catch the 2hrly service to Sheffield Midland than catch the bus.

Agreed.

You used to be able to leave Huddersfield at 1042, and be in Sheffield Victoria at 1134. On the return you could leave Sheffield at 1752 and be back in Huddersfield at 1850.

Several other services took around 1 hour, with a change at Penistone into/out of the DC electric service to Sheffield Victoria.

But that was back in the 1960s - we've progressed now.

As late as May 1983 Huddersfield - Sheffield Midland service went via ( The Closed Sheffield Victoria ) to Penistone route

 

[LE Greys]

In terms of a route that has plenty of trains, but no direct service, East Anglia-North West. OK, there's the Norwich-Liverpool, but that is considerably slower than travelling via London and for some reason ended up with EMT rather than XC. Besides, that doesn't reach anywhere near as far north as it could, you can get from Norwich Airport to Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Manchester, and from Stansted to Edinburgh and Glasgow. The main problems there are caused by the routes in East Anglia and Nottinghamshire. They underwent 'Sprinterisation' in the early '80s without any real changes to the infrastructure, so effectively trading capacity for speed and operating costs. The length of time it takes to pass through the West Riding is just as bad. Before then, we had trains such as the North Country Continental, but that's just an aside. With significant development, I reckon there is a lot of potential there waiting to be unlocked.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The 97 and 98 are every twenty minutes each. Not sure about nearly every public transport passenger in Sheffield & South Yorkshire being Anti-First Group, since passenger numbers have gone up 17% in the last six months or so (i.e. since the October changes).

.

Very much so, stagecoach deserve credit for imho making first get their act together in Sheffield. Sheffields bus services seem to be getting more succesful as time goes by. I only hope that the rest of public transport in the area continues to suceed.

 

[tbtc]

In terms of a route that has plenty of trains, but no direct service, East Anglia-North West. OK, there's the Norwich-Liverpool, but that is considerably slower than travelling via London and for some reason ended up with EMT rather than XC. Besides, that doesn't reach anywhere near as far north as it could, you can get from Norwich Airport to Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Manchester, and from Stansted to Edinburgh and Glasgow. The main problems there are caused by the routes in East Anglia and Nottinghamshire. They underwent 'Sprinterisation' in the early '80s without any real changes to the infrastructure, so effectively trading capacity for speed and operating costs. The length of time it takes to pass through the West Riding is just as bad. Before then, we had trains such as the North Country Continental, but that's just an aside. With significant development, I reckon there is a lot of potential there waiting to be unlocked.

Hopefully HS2 will free up enough paths in the Peterborough area to allow more 90/100mph services (like a previous suggestion I made in a discussion wtih you that the Peterborough - Leeds service may be retained post-HS2 but with a southern end of Cambridge/ Stansted).

 

[LE Greys]

Hopefully HS2 will free up enough paths in the Peterborough area to allow more 90/100mph services (like a previous suggestion I made in a discussion wtih you that the Peterborough - Leeds service may be retained post-HS2 but with a southern end of Cambridge/ Stansted).

On a practical level, I wonder how much of the reason for this was because of the maths of splitting up the 158s and 170s. EMT got all of the ex-Central 158s, the 170s were split between LM and XC.

Regardless of my feelings of 100mph 170s on routes like the Chase Line, I can see the logic in trying to keep fleets "simple".

Operationally, this is the kind of route that needs to be run either from the middle or from both ends. EMT certainly cover the former category. They run other services on the route from Sheffield to Nottingham to Gratham, so have some parallel presence.

Practically, I don't know what difference it would make under XC (same stock, just a different colour scheme). As for it being an "inter-regional express route", EMT do run "Intercity" services to London, so it's not like leaving the route with a wholly-local TOC.

Really, it's an odd-ball route. Whoever you give Liverpool - Norwich to, it'll sit badly with them.

I've merged the two posts over here, since this is the thread for it.

Well, not exactly. I would classify the route a something definitely in XC's territory, which they share with TPX to a certain extent. Because neither of them is London-based, they have more incentive to develop the route rather than regard it as an 'extra' bolted on to their franchise. EMT's is of course a mixed franchise, but they are generally mono-regional, so giving them an inter-regional route when their major focus is London might have been a mistake. Although, on thinking about it, the unit allocation problem sounds like a likely explanation.

Whichever it is, Norwich/Stansted-Leeds is a potential route to look at in the future. It will require development, though, especially on the under-invested sections in East Anglia, since anything primarily on the ECML will require 125 mph stock, requiring the line to be capable of taking Voyagers at 90-100 (there'll be plenty of Voyagers available for cascade sooner or later). Similarly, the Grantham-Nottingham section requires work, probably including electrification (for Freightliner as much as anyone). It may be possible to justify wires through Thetford if that happens, so an alternative plan would require EMUs. The hope is to take a lot of strain off the London route, but this only gets as far as Leeds or Nottingham/Trent. To reach the other side requires a link-up with TPX, or even a full merger of TPX and XC, plus significant work around the West Riding. Because of this, I don't hold high hopes for a Norwich-Glasgow service ever happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Duplicate post-deleted

 

[tbtc]

Well, not exactly. I would classify the route a something definitely in XC's territory, which they share with TPX to a certain extent. Because neither of them is London-based, they have more incentive to develop the route rather than regard it as an 'extra' bolted on to their franchise

Cheers for merging the posts.

I think that a long route that goes nowhere near the West Midlands would also feel like a "bolted on extra" to the XC franchise. There is just no "natural home" for this service.

Whilst XC serve Ely, Peterborough, Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Stockport and Manchester, they actually run along very little of the Norwich - Liverpool route, so you'd still have the complications of multiple TOCs in an area (e.g. three passenger TOCs in the Hope Valley with little incentive to improve services).

100mph 170s would marginally improve things on the ECML north of Peterborough, admittedly, though there are none spare. Hmm, was there a way to split up the Central stock to give XC sufficient 170s for the Norwich service (at least a dozen?)? Maybe give 158s to FSR in exchange for 170s? Dunno.

 

[LE Greys]

Because it doesn't pass through Birmingham. It was decided that XC should be a Birmingham-centric franchise.

Cheers for merging the posts.

I think that a long route that goes nowhere near the West Midlands would also feel like a "bolted on extra" to the XC franchise. There is just no "natural home" for this service.

Whilst XC serve Ely, Peterborough, Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Stockport and Manchester, they actually run along very little of the Norwich - Liverpool route, so you'd still have the complications of multiple TOCs in an area (e.g. three passenger TOCs in the Hope Valley with little incentive to improve services).

100mph 170s would marginally improve things on the ECML north of Peterborough, admittedly, though there are none spare. Hmm, was there a way to split up the Central stock to give XC sufficient 170s for the Norwich service (at least a dozen?)? Maybe give 158s to FSR in exchange for 170s? Dunno.

Well, considering Scotrail didn't want to hang on to so many 158s at the time, and nearly traded some of them in for extra 156s, I doubt that would wash. Maybe there are just different ways to draw the boundaries. XC did undergo significant trimming at the time, losing Manchester-Glasgow for instance, but before then, it was polycentric, so looking at it in the context of the time, it wasn't so unusual. TPX was part of Northern as well. I can see how they might have been thinking now, but it wasn't so clear at the time.

 

[yorksrob]

It would also help if it was possible to change at Carnforth on to a service to Kendal and Windermere.

Quite, I was planning to do a rugby trip that way but have been largely scuppered due to early last services (which seems to be one of the biggest problems for connectivity in the North IMO).

 

[tbtc]

Well, considering Scotrail didn't want to hang on to so many 158s at the time, and nearly traded some of them in for extra 156s, I doubt that would wash

True - and I wish the 156/158 swap had happened - it was the only way I could think of balancing the numbers up so that if XC got the Norwich - Liverpool service they didn't also inherit a tiny fleet of non-standard DMUs (158s).

 

[Welshman]

As late as May 1983 Huddersfield - Sheffield Midland service went via ( The Closed Sheffield Victoria ) to Penistone route

Yes it did - I used it once or twice- but it's having to pass through the closed Sheffield Victoria and then reverse at Nunnery to gain access into Sheffield Midland meant journey times not much faster than the present day via Barnsley.

I was talking about the days you could go into Sheffield Victoria by changing at Penistone on to the DC electric services. Then you could travel from Huddersfield to Sheffield in just over an hour on stopping trains to Penistone, and in about 50 minutes on the one or two express services of the day, eg the "South Yorkshireman" from Bradford Exchange to London Marylebone, or the Saturdays only Bradford-Poole service via Huddersfield & Penistone.

There was even, just for one season, a Saturdays-only Bradford Exchange to London Kings Cross service which went via Huddersfield, Penistone & Sheffield Victoria [which I think was closed by then], to Retford High Level, and then up the EC main line. I managed to travel on it once - Cl.47 hauled and Mk 2 coaches, and I still remember the driver taking some liberties with the curves between Penistone and Sheffield Victoria!

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Yes it did - I used it once or twice- but it's having to pass through the closed Sheffield Victoria and then reverse at Nunnery to gain access into Sheffield Midland meant journey times not much faster than the present day via Barnsley.

I was talking about the days you could go into Sheffield Victoria by changing at Penistone on to the DC electric services. Then you could travel from Huddersfield to Sheffield in just over an hour on stopping trains to Penistone, and in about 50 minutes on the one or two express services of the day, eg the "South Yorkshireman" from Bradford Exchange to London Marylebone, or the Saturdays only Bradford-Poole service via Huddersfield & Penistone.

There was even, just for one season, a Saturdays-only Bradford Exchange to London Kings Cross service which went via Huddersfield, Penistone & Sheffield Victoria [which I think was closed by then], to Retford High Level, and then up the EC main line. I managed to travel on it once - Cl.47 hauled and Mk 2 coaches, and I still remember the driver taking some liberties with the curves between Penistone and Sheffield Victoria!

Their is a local railway group called " The Don Valley Railway " who are trying to get a passgener service from Deepcar to Sheffield Victoria or Midland, their future plans are to one day connect up at Penistone with the service to Huddersfield

 

[Welshman]

Their is a local railway group called " The Don Valley Railway " who are trying to get a passgener service from Deepcar to Sheffield Victoria or Midland, their future plans are to one day connect up at Penistone with the service to Huddersfield

It would be good if they did.
Do you know if the trackbed still fairly intact between Deepcar and Penistone, and what is the condition of Thurgoland tunnel?