Help! Sat in First Class - or was it?

[Baazzaa]

Hi,
I joined this forum today since my experience yesterday and am seeking some help/advice.
I was travelling from Tottenham Hale to London Liverpool Street yesterday and arrived at the station in time to catch the 10:00 Greater Anglia train which showed on the board as no stops en route. I have only ever travelled this route once or twice over a number of years and certainly didn't dream that there was First Class seating.
Upon boarding the train, at the first doors in the second carriage i noticed that it was fairly full in the left side (end section of the carriage) I then looked right towards the middle section and noticed spare seats, albeit my eye took me towards two seats facing me which had quite a bit of mud on them. I sat down facing these, on the aisle seat, and started to read a document that I had in hand, while a teenage lad boarded and sat across the aisle.
Within 30 seconds of leaving the station, I noticed a woman stand from the seat that backed on to the muddy seat opposite me and approached me - while the young passenger made for a quick exit (to be stopped by the woman's colleage who was also sat where she was).
It was at this point when I looked up that I realised I was sitting in a First Class area of the carriage and assumed that she was a ticket inspector (even now I do not know what she was as she never told me).
Asking me for my ticket, I produced my Oyster card which I had used to 'tap in' before boarding.
Having electronically read my card she told me that I was travelling in First Class and asked if I had any other ticket for my journey. I didnt but immediately stood up, apologised and said that I would move to another area and was promptly told that it was too late as I had already taken a seat.
She then asked me several questions relating to my journey and I stated again that I would move and that I had only just sat down. I also said that this all seemed too much for what was a 'one stop' journey and that I again apologised for making an error.
- I should point out that at no time during the whole conversation did she offer or suggest that I could pay an upgrade, penalty or other fine.
She then asked me to complete a personal information form, which I did with only basic details and initialled it. To which she then toled me that I was not under caution.
This was then follwed by her contacting her office on radio and confirming my details to them. Then she proceeded to caution me. I have to say I was flabbergasted.
She then asked me further questions and kept asking me questions intimating that I had intended to travel first class on a second class ticket, to which I constantly told her that I had never intended to travel first class. She also asked if I had the means to pay for a first class ticket. I asked why is that relevant as I never intended to travel first class.
At the end of the conversation she asked me to sign her statement, to which I refused. I asked for a copy and was told that she couldn't give me one or a recipt of some description. Nearing the end of our 14 minute journey, she told me that I would receive a letter and not to ignore it. I took a picture of the muddy seats, in case it would be useful, with my mobile to which she said that I couldn't take pictures of her under the data protection act. I said I took it of the seats and didnt even know if she was in it. Her colleague stood up and made me delete the picture albeit I took another with no chance of her being in it.
This morning I decided to research Greater Anglia website and noticed that they state that first class accommodation is not available on this line (Hertford East to Liverpool Street) SEE LINK http://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/daily-tickets/first-class-travel
(This train commenced its journey from Broxbourne which is on the Hertford East line)
Albeit, when checking fares, there is an option for First Class.
So, even if this part of the carriage is/was first class, this whole affair seems over the top as the single standard fare is £4.50 and the First Class fare shows as £6.70. A mere £2.20 extra. I am not even sure who would pay extra to travel in this shabby section. BTW this carriage (and whole train) was very old, dirty with no facilities and only a small window table - not across both seats.
Sorry to go on... however, I am also wondering if there is any case for accusation of entrapment, as these two inspectors (or whatever) were seated until seconds after the train had departed the station. They could clearly have stopped me and the other lad as we entered the small centre section???
Thanks for being patient and also for your help and advice in advance!

 

[bb21]

Hi,
I joined this forum today since my experience yesterday and am seeking some help/advice.

Welcome.

I was travelling from Tottenham Hale to London Liverpool Street yesterday and arrived at the station in time to catch the 10:00 Greater Anglia train which showed on the board as no stops en route. I have only ever travelled this route once or twice over a number of years and certainly didn't dream that there was First Class seating.

Is it a service originating from Hertford East?

(No longer relevant.)

- I should point out that at no time during the whole conversation did she offer or suggest that I could pay an upgrade, penalty or other fine.
She then asked me to complete a personal information form, which I did with only basic details and initialled it. To which she then toled me that I was not under caution.

If you were travelling in First Class, then in theory you have breached the Byelaws and they can go straight to prosecutions if they wish. Penalty Fare and excess fares are both discretionary.

I don't agree with this practice, however they are entitled to do it.

She then asked me further questions and kept asking me questions intimating that I had intended to travel first class on a second class ticket, to which I constantly told her that I had never intended to travel first class. She also asked if I had the means to pay for a first class ticket. I asked why is that relevant as I never intended to travel first class.

Very good responses.

This morning I decided to research Greater Anglia website and noticed that they state that first class accommodation is not available on this line (Hertford East to Liverpool Street) SEE LINK http://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/daily-tickets/first-class-travel
(This train commenced its journey from Broxbourne which is on the Hertford East line)
Albeit, when checking fares, there is an option for First Class.
So, even if this part of the carriage is/was first class, this whole affair seems over the top as the single standard fare is £4.50 and the First Class fare shows as £6.70. A mere £2.20 extra. I am not even sure who would pay extra to travel in this shabby section. BTW this carriage (and whole train) was very old, dirty with no facilities and only a small window table - not across both seats.

That is most strange. There is definitely First Class accommodation according to the National Rail Timetable and the timetables published by GA themselves. I suspect that the left hand at the company is not talking to the right hand.

I think you may well have a case here. I will be inclined to fight this if I were you.

(No longer applicable as I did not notice the bit where the OP explained which train he was on. In light of those facts, I no longer think there is a good chance succeeding fighting this one.)

Sorry to go on... however, I am also wondering if there is any case for accusation of entrapment, as these two inspectors (or whatever) were seated until seconds after the train had departed the station. They could clearly have stopped me and the other lad as we entered the small centre section???

I doubt it. They didn't encourage you to enter the area. It was entirely your decision to sit there. They can't just stop anyone as the passenger may well have a First Class ticket.

 

[Be3G]

I have sympathy for you. I'm familiar with the type of train you're describing (I commute along that line) and I have often thought that the first class section is woefully unsegregated and barely any different from standard class – the first class accommodation is right in the middle of the carriage, with no doors to separate it, and about the only difference being slightly wider seats with armrests. Indeed, I often see that section of the trains being just as full as the rest, suggesting that most people either don't realise it's first class or if they do realise, they don't care.

Further complicating matters is that your train was actually one from Cambridge. I assume you were referring to the Hertford East to London timetable, which shows it as starting from Broxbourne, unfortunately without any explanatory note that the train began back at Cambridge. However, the type of train you describe is not normally used on Cambridge services as far as I'm aware; I don't generally catch trains to/from there, but on the few occasions I have, it's never been that type of train. Normally it's one of two other types, both of which have doors clearly delineating the first class section.

However, having said all that, there will have been some small stickers on the windows between the vestibule and the first class section of the train you caught, indicating it as such. So whilst I do have sympathy for you, the fact is that you did travel without a valid ticket, albeit unintentionally. Others will be along to give you a better idea of how to proceed from here. (Ah, bb21 has beaten me to it!)

 

[soil]

I took a picture of the muddy seats, in case it would be useful, with my mobile to which she said that I couldn't take pictures of her under the data protection act. I said I took it of the seats and didnt even know if she was in it. Her colleague stood up and made me delete the picture albeit I took another with no chance of her being in it.

Just to be clear, nobody can make you delete your photographs. If you take photos AFTER they have told you not to, that would potentially be a trespass and they could instruct you to leave the train (oh noes). However in general photography on the railways is permitted, and there would be a presumption that you can do so, so you certainly did nothing wrong in taking the first photograph.

They sound like a right pair of idiots TBH.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This morning I decided to research Greater Anglia website and noticed that they state that first class accommodation is not available on this line (Hertford East to Liverpool Street) SEE LINK http://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/daily-tickets/first-class-travel
(This train commenced its journey from Broxbourne which is on the Hertford East line)

Broxbourne is on the mainline.

The Hertford East branch line starts beyond Broxbourne (first station Rye House).

The 10:00 is scheduled to depart Cambridge at 08:48, and calls all stations to Harlow Town, Broxbourne, Cheshunt, Tottenham Hale, and Liverpool Street.

There is definitely First Class accommodation here, and this train would not fall into one of these: "suburban lines to Enfield Town, Cheshunt, Chingford, Hertford East, Gidea Park and Shenfield"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The relevant law that may have been broken is Railway Byelaw 19:

"Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place. "

So if there was a 'notice' indicating that the seats were First Class, then you would be caught by this, and without any real defence.

 

[Hellfire]

Technically you have committed an offence as you did not have a valid ticket for the portion of the train in which you were sitting.Whether you intended to be there is not really relevant as long as they can show there were notices indicating that portion of the train was First Class

However their action all seems a little heavy handed to me. As BB21 rightly points out TOCs can proceed straight to prosecution but I would have thought a an excess fare or penalty fare would have been the right way to deal with this and secure revenue for the TOC at no extra cost. Having asked you if you had the means to pay the additional fare I think she should just have asked you to do that very thing.

However, we are where we are. You will have to wait for the letter to see exactly what they are accusing you of. Please feel free to share that with the forum, we may be able to offer more advice. I believe you have grounds for fighting this but we need to see what the TOC says.

While it is not particularly relevant they had no right to force you to delete the picture from your phone. Even a police officer needs a warrant to do that.

Whether taking a picture which included the RPI is a breach of the Data Protection Act is something only a court could determine and, as far as I know, that particular aspect of the DPA has never been tested. Unless a TOC specifically bans the taking of photographs on its trains, and tells passengers in advance of boarding, there is nothing to specifically prohibit it unless you entered the train as a trespasser.

 

[bb21]

I have edited my original advice in view of the clarification as to which train the OP caught.

I did not notice it when I read it the first time and took the OP's words regarding the Hertford East aspect.

I agree that it comes across as very heavy-handed from GA, and an excess or a Penalty Fare should have sufficed. However I imagine that like FCC, they suffer from passengers (not saying the OP) taking liberty with First Class accommodation having not paid for it with their trains being DOO, therefore I can to a certain extent understand their approach. Not saying that I agree with it though.

 

[Baazzaa]

typed in wrong section
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Welcome.



Is it a service originating from Hertford East?

(No longer relevant.)



If you were travelling in First Class, then in theory you have breached the Byelaws and they can go straight to prosecutions if they wish. Penalty Fare and excess fares are both discretionary.

I don't agree with this practice, however they are entitled to do it.

Seems rediculous to go through all this for a £2.20 underpayment, albeit I understand your comment.

Very good responses.



That is most strange. There is definitely First Class accommodation according to the National Rail Timetable and the timetables published by GA themselves. I suspect that the left hand at the company is not talking to the right hand.

I think you may well have a case here. I will be inclined to fight this if I were you.

(No longer applicable as I did not notice the bit where the OP explained which train he was on. In light of those facts, I no longer think there is a good chance succeeding fighting this one.)

Yes, I now see that the train originated from Cambridge

I doubt it. They didn't encourage you to enter the area. It was entirely your decision to sit there. They can't just stop anyone as the passenger may well have a First Class ticket.

Of course, I just feel hard done by as the First Class section is so small and I was only seated for such a short time. Can't deny, though, that my backside did make contact with the seat
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have sympathy for you. I'm familiar with the type of train you're describing (I commute along that line) and I have often thought that the first class section is woefully unsegregated and barely any different from standard class – the first class accommodation is right in the middle of the carriage, with no doors to separate it, and about the only difference being slightly wider seats with armrests. Indeed, I often see that section of the trains being just as full as the rest, suggesting that most people either don't realise it's first class or if they do realise, they don't care.

Further complicating matters is that your train was actually one from Cambridge. I assume you were referring to the Hertford East to London timetable, which shows it as starting from Broxbourne, unfortunately without any explanatory note that the train began back at Cambridge. However, the type of train you describe is not normally used on Cambridge services as far as I'm aware; I don't generally catch trains to/from there, but on the few occasions I have, it's never been that type of train. Normally it's one of two other types, both of which have doors clearly delineating the first class section.

However, having said all that, there will have been some small stickers on the windows between the vestibule and the first class section of the train you caught, indicating it as such. So whilst I do have sympathy for you, the fact is that you did travel without a valid ticket, albeit unintentionally. Others will be along to give you a better idea of how to proceed from here. (Ah, bb21 has beaten me to it!)

Thank you Be3G. Yes, it appears a through train from Cambridge. And, yes, there were stickers, albeit I unfortunately didn't see them as I entered the carriage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just to be clear, nobody can make you delete your photographs. If you take photos AFTER they have told you not to, that would potentially be a trespass and they could instruct you to leave the train (oh noes). However in general photography on the railways is permitted, and there would be a presumption that you can do so, so you certainly did nothing wrong in taking the first photograph.

They sound like a right pair of idiots TBH.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Broxbourne is on the mainline.

The Hertford East branch line starts beyond Broxbourne (first station Rye House).

The 10:00 is scheduled to depart Cambridge at 08:48, and calls all stations to Harlow Town, Broxbourne, Cheshunt, Tottenham Hale, and Liverpool Street.

There is definitely First Class accommodation here, and this train would not fall into one of these: "suburban lines to Enfield Town, Cheshunt, Chingford, Hertford East, Gidea Park and Shenfield"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The relevant law that may have been broken is Railway Byelaw 19:

"Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place. "

So if there was a 'notice' indicating that the seats were First Class, then you would be caught by this, and without any real defence.

Thank you for your response!

Well, it looks like I have to accept that I made a stupid error, for which I could kick myself. However, one would like to think that some discretion could have been taken, given the additional fare of £2.20 (difference between standard and first class) and also that I was effectively only travelling one stop. I have to say that my 'captor' seemed intent on throwing the book at me!

As for the photo, I would have argued the point, albeit I didnt know the law regarding trains/staff etc and, had I not been running tight for an appointment, I would have done so.

Interestingly, I like the wording in the bylaw "no person shall remain in any seat". I'm not even sure I remained in the seat for more than 30 seconds before I was approached. Not even long enough to warm the seat!!!

Idiots - Yes ... Jobsworths - Yes

Thanks again for your response!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Technically you have committed an offence as you did not have a valid ticket for the portion of the train in which you were sitting.Whether you intended to be there is not really relevant as long as they can show there were notices indicating that portion of the train was First Class

However their action all seems a little heavy handed to me. As BB21 rightly points out TOCs can proceed straight to prosecution but I would have thought a an excess fare or penalty fare would have been the right way to deal with this and secure revenue for the TOC at no extra cost. Having asked you if you had the means to pay the additional fare I think she should just have asked you to do that very thing.

However, we are where we are. You will have to wait for the letter to see exactly what they are accusing you of. Please feel free to share that with the forum, we may be able to offer more advice. I believe you have grounds for fighting this but we need to see what the TOC says.

While it is not particularly relevant they had no right to force you to delete the picture from your phone. Even a police officer needs a warrant to do that.

Whether taking a picture which included the RPI is a breach of the Data Protection Act is something only a court could determine and, as far as I know, that particular aspect of the DPA has never been tested. Unless a TOC specifically bans the taking of photographs on its trains, and tells passengers in advance of boarding, there is nothing to specifically prohibit it unless you entered the train as a trespasser.

Thank you, Hellfire,

s I said earlier, I could kick myself, and from what I have read on this forum, the potential punishment certainly doesn't seem to me to fit the crime. I mean, let's face it, I could get just 8 months for perverting the course of justice!

I will certainly post back here when I receive the letter.

Shame about the photo deletion. However, I am considering trying to recover the deleted photo from my phone and, if neccessary, use that one as part of defence/appeal!

Cheers!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have edited my original advice in view of the clarification as to which train the OP caught.

I did not notice it when I read it the first time and took the OP's words regarding the Hertford East aspect.

I agree that it comes across as very heavy-handed from GA, and an excess or a Penalty Fare should have sufficed. However I imagine that like FCC, they suffer from passengers (not saying the OP) taking liberty with First Class accommodation having not paid for it with their trains being DOO, therefore I can to a certain extent understand their approach. Not saying that I agree with it though.

Thanks again, bb21,

I probably cannot imagine how much 'intentional self-upgrading' that goes on. However, I can assure you that I would ask for my money back if I had paid to sit in such a tired, dirty and shabby carriage which, frankly, was just as unclassy as the standard part of the carriage.

 

[RPI]

If GA are anything like FCC then there will be loads of clear notices outlining the consequences of going into first class with a Standard ticket, however, I haven't been on GA so don't know that it is clear. On any DOO route then I'm afraid that the TOC will be very strict on first class abuse, the RPI isn't a "Jobsworth", they are doing the job that they are paid to do and we only have one side of the story also, they have followed procedure. I have many people who "Take pictures of the door behind me" when i'm dealing with them and the cynic in me says that this was the case here, but I wasn't there.

Best thing is wait until they write to you and go from there.

 

[causton]

The notices on the last First Class section I looked at on a GA train weren't that obvious:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/0causton0/7699151372/
(ignore the fact the door was bent so you couldn't actually get in there!)

Was this the sort of train that worked the service?

 

[Hellfire]

If GA are anything like FCC then there will be loads of clear notices outlining the consequences of going into first class with a Standard ticket, however, I haven't been on GA so don't know that it is clear. On any DOO route then I'm afraid that the TOC will be very strict on first class abuse, the RPI isn't a "Jobsworth", they are doing the job that they are paid to do and we only have one side of the story also, they have followed procedure. .

They may have followed "procedure" but they did not seem to use much common sense. The best way to deal with this both in the interests of the TOC and the passenger was by way if an excess fare. TOC gets the revenue and time and money not wasted on pursuing passenger. If I remember rightly that was the procedure adopted in the case of one George Osborne a few months ago.

I ran this by a magistrate friend of mine. He was clear that he takes a very dim view of cases arriving in court when things should have been settled at the time and he adjusts costs accordingly.

If the OP was not offered the option of paying the excess then he should make that clear in any response.

 

[RPI]

They may have followed "procedure" but they did not seem to use much common sense. The best way to deal with this both in the interests of the TOC and the passenger was by way if an excess fare. TOC gets the revenue and time and money not wasted on pursuing passenger. If I remember rightly that was the procedure adopted in the case of one George Osborne a few months ago.

I ran this by a magistrate friend of mine. He was clear that he takes a very dim view of cases arriving in court when things should have been settled at the time and he adjusts costs accordingly.

If the OP was not offered the option of paying the excess then he should make that clear in any response.

I disagree, on DOO services/routes it has always been the case that you cannot upgrade on the train, the PF notices at the stations state that a PF will be issued in such circumstances, what you are saying effectively is that you should only pay when challenged, if it were the case that you simply paid the excess on the train then everyone would be in there and just pay when an RPI shows up. The RPI was under no obligation to offer an Excess. The George Osbourne case you refer to was on an Intercity service where you may be allowed to upgrade on the train as there is time for the guard to make regular ticket checks and there is a guard on every train!

 

[W230]

They may have followed "procedure" but they did not seem to use much common sense. The best way to deal with this both in the interests of the TOC and the passenger was by way if an excess fare. TOC gets the revenue and time and money not wasted on pursuing passenger.

Would have definitely made the most sense.

As to the OP, you can take pictures of anything/anyone in public. The same occurs in private though under certain circumstances you could be guilty of the civil offence of trespass. While taking photos of a person who does not consent may annoy, it does not change the fact that it is not illegal, the pictures do not have to be deleted and it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Data Protection Act. As already mentioned, the only way to have a photo destroyed is by an order issued by the court.

Also already mentioned though, the offence of sitting in the First Class seat has been committed. While you call the RPI a 'jobsworth', they are only lodging their job - whether the only other available seat was muddy is sadly irrelevant. Surprisingly to many, a ticket does not actually guarantee you a seat! For info also, the RPI does not have to give you a copy of her statement/notes, neither does she have to let you read them.

 

[455driver]

I have many people who "Take pictures of the door behind me" when i'm dealing with them and the cynic in me says that this was the case here, but I wasn't there.

When passengers have taken a picture of me (coz they can) I normally take a picture of them and its amazing how ar$ey they get!

If you dont like it doing to you dont do it to me first, simples!

 

[Clip]

I just do not understand nor comprehend why taking a picture of muddy seats would ever be of use to you?

 

[Be3G]

The notices on the last First Class section I looked at on a GA train weren't that obvious:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/0causton0/7699151372/
(ignore the fact the door was bent so you couldn't actually get in there!)

Was this the sort of train that worked the service?

I'm not the OP but I believe, from his description, he's describing a different type of train (this one) as they're the ones that have first class in the middle of the carriage – this type doesn't even have doors segregating first class so it's probably not all that obvious to someone who doesn't frequently use those trains. I'm trying to find a photo online of the first class area of the trains in question but not having any luck so far!

 

[soil]

Would have definitely made the most sense.

As to the OP, you can take pictures of anything/anyone in public. The same occurs in private though under certain circumstances you could be guilty of the civil offence of trespass.

There is no such thing as a civil offence. It is a tort, a civil wrong, and there is no concept of punishment for civil wrongs, as there is for criminal offences. (Of course you can be sued for damages, if there are any.)

 

[Mark_H]

I took a picture of the muddy seats, in case it would be useful, with my mobile to which she said that I couldn't take pictures of her under the data protection act. I said I took it of the seats and didnt even know if she was in it. Her colleague stood up and made me delete the picture albeit I took another with no chance of her being in it.

As others have said, her claims about the DPA were utter nonsense. You were almost certainly covered by the very broad exemption for individuals collecting data for personal use (e.g. the DPA doesn't cover your address book or your holiday snaps!), and even if it you weren't, the DPA is primarily to prevent personal data being kept unnecessarily and for too long - keeping a relevant photo for the period you needed it (i.e. until this matter is finalized) would be valid.

 

[Baazzaa]

If GA are anything like FCC then there will be loads of clear notices outlining the consequences of going into first class with a Standard ticket, however, I haven't been on GA so don't know that it is clear. On any DOO route then I'm afraid that the TOC will be very strict on first class abuse, the RPI isn't a "Jobsworth", they are doing the job that they are paid to do and we only have one side of the story also, they have followed procedure. I have many people who "Take pictures of the door behind me" when i'm dealing with them and the cynic in me says that this was the case here, but I wasn't there.

Best thing is wait until they write to you and go from there.

Thanks RPI,

When I first became aware that I was in first class, I have to say that the bibs on the seat headrests were the most prominent indication which is certainly not so of the window stickers of which, I believe, there were only two on each side of the carriage i.e. 2 windows for the first class middle section of the carriage.

I used the word 'jobsworth' because, as others have mentioned, common sense would have been better employed. Let's face it, why would I bother risking fines/criminal record etc. for a one stop ride, to save £2.20 and sit in what appeared to be no better than standard class carriage (section) with standard class mud on the seats?

Cynic, I'm afraid in this case... as I genuinely took it for the mud on the seat and she happened to be in the shot. This was after we had finsihed talking and as I was about to leave the train.

Here is the link to the photo and inside the first class section. You can also see that people are about to disembark...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ubq79ecq0n7vu1i/20130311_101452.jpg?m
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The notices on the last First Class section I looked at on a GA train weren't that obvious:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/0causton0/7699151372/
(ignore the fact the door was bent so you couldn't actually get in there!)

Was this the sort of train that worked the service?

No, it wasn't. Here is the inside and also some outside photos which I took on my return journey and believe these are the same style of train as the one I was on a couple of hours earlier...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ubq79ecq0n7vu1i/20130311_101452.jpg?m
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gg43hp7h02chpbi/20130311_125708.jpg?m
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tihemskibhrs2mj/20130311_125717.jpg?m
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9x94wc5ombgzic/20130311_125720.jpg?m
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sewgq8tj15y2rmh/20130311_125724.jpg?m
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would have definitely made the most sense.

As to the OP, you can take pictures of anything/anyone in public. The same occurs in private though under certain circumstances you could be guilty of the civil offence of trespass. While taking photos of a person who does not consent may annoy, it does not change the fact that it is not illegal, the pictures do not have to be deleted and it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Data Protection Act. As already mentioned, the only way to have a photo destroyed is by an order issued by the court.

Also already mentioned though, the offence of sitting in the First Class seat has been committed. While you call the RPI a 'jobsworth', they are only lodging their job - whether the only other available seat was muddy is sadly irrelevant. Surprisingly to many, a ticket does not actually guarantee you a seat! For info also, the RPI does not have to give you a copy of her statement/notes, neither does she have to let you read them.

Hi W230, Thanks for your response.

Just to clarify, I didn't sit in first class because of alternative muddy seats in standard class. These muddy seats were in first class. As I said earlier, as I entered the carriage, the end section (as I now know to be standard class) was pretty full and my eyes scanned to the right (as I now know to be first class - middle section) and immediatey noticed the muddy seats. I entered the first class section and I actually sat in a seat facing these muddy seats.

 

[AeroSpace]

I used the word 'jobsworth' because, as others have mentioned, common sense would have been better employed. Let's face it, why would I bother risking fines/criminal record etc. for a one stop ride, to save £2.20 and sit in what appeared to be no better than standard class carriage (section) with standard class mud on the seats?

But if you had been allowed to just pay the £2.20, you wouldn't have been risking fines or a criminal record!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Yes that is the GA first class offering which is frankly foul of the trade descriptions act.

I only sit there if on the Southbury line otherwise you would need to carry the timetable around with you to see where it has come from on the mainline.

You dont expect the situation to be simple do you!

Can first or do them up.

 

[Baazzaa]

I just do not understand nor comprehend why taking a picture of muddy seats would ever be of use to you?

Clip, I took a picture of the seats because I felt that it may help me show that the carriage was not what one would expect to be first class standard. No doors into section, no all-seat tables, poor signage, mud on seats etc.
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I'm not the OP but I believe, from his description, he's describing a different type of train (this one) as they're the ones that have first class in the middle of the carriage – this type doesn't even have doors segregating first class so it's probably not all that obvious to someone who doesn't frequently use those trains. I'm trying to find a photo online of the first class area of the trains in question but not having any luck so far!

Be3G,

You are correct about the style of carriage. Here (again) is the link to the photo that I took...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ubq79ecq0n7vu1i/20130311_101452.jpg?m

You are also correct about unfamiliarity of these trains. My usual overground line into London when I need one is First Capital Connect from Gordon Hill. To be honest I don't ever recall noticing first class carriages, so it isn't something I think about unless, of course, I am travelling on an inter-city train, which I may use one every several years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But if you had been allowed to just pay the £2.20, you wouldn't have been risking fines or a criminal record!

My point is that, why would I risk fines/court action just to save the £2.20? ie. I would have paid the £6.70 first class fare in the first place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes that is the GA first class offering which is frankly foul of the trade descriptions act.

I only sit there if on the Southbury line otherwise you would need to carry the timetable around with you to see where it has come from on the mainline.

You dont expect the situation to be simple do you!

Can first or do them up.

Thanks, Johngill,

It's amazing that such a slight genuine error could have such potential consequences. I mean, to become a 'criminal' for sitting in a wrong seat???

 

[Be3G]

Yes that is the GA first class offering which is frankly foul of the trade descriptions act.

I only sit there if on the Southbury line otherwise you would need to carry the timetable around with you to see where it has come from on the mainline.

Just to make you aware in case you're not already, the first train of the day on a Saturday is timetabled to have first class as it's actually come all the way from Cambridge. It is at 05:19 from Theobalds though so I imagine it's not a train you frequently find yourself on!

Be3G,

You are correct about the style of carriage. Here (again) is the link to the photo that I took...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ubq79ecq0n7vu1i/20130311_101452.jpg?m

You are also correct about unfamiliarity of these trains. My usual overground line into London when I need one is First Capital Connect from Gordon Hill. To be honest I don't ever recall noticing first class carriages, so it isn't something I think about unless, of course, I am travelling on an inter-city train, which I may use one every several years.

Ah so you're an Enfield resident too. Indeed, the FCC trains from Gordon Hill don't ever have first class as far as I'm aware, and their standard class is often in better shape than GA's first class, so I can understand the confusion. No doubt you'd have realised soon enough that you were in first class once you noticed the antimacassars (the ‘bibs’ to which you refer); it is unfortunate that you were spotted by Greater Anglia's member of staff so soon after boarding.

By the way, I don't intend to be particularly anti-Greater-Anglia in this thread. I'm just particularly incensed by this incident because I have actually stood on those trains just outside the first class section in a packed commuter rush-hour and thought to myself that I bet something like this would happen one day. Sure, to a ‘trained’ eye it's easy to spot that it's first class (my goodness, arm rests!) but I've travelled with enough people who aren't so clued-up about train travel to realise that mistakes like this can easily be made.

 

[6Gman]

But the photograph of the muddy seats show they have antimacassars with 'First Class' prominently across them!

 

[W230]

There is no such thing as a civil offence. It is a tort, a civil wrong, and there is no concept of punishment for civil wrongs, as there is for criminal offences. (Of course you can be sued for damages, if there are any.)

Apologies for the inaccuracy - I'm not really up on civil law (torts) but was trying to highlight that you can pretty much take pictures of what you want and that you wouldn't be breaching any criminal law (subject to obvious scenarios involving MoD, breaching Official Secrets Act etc).

 

[tony6499]

But the photograph of the muddy seats show they have antimacassars with 'First Class' prominently across them!

I saw that, first thing I noticed was the first class signs and not the mud

 

[jon0844]

Assuming the seats were mostly empty, so you could see the antimacassars, I guess you should have spotted it when sitting down. But, if there are no closing doors and only very small stickers at the end of the 'compartment' then it's pretty bad on the part of GA (and National Express before it, which refreshed the trains to make them look as they do today).

Sadly, the offence was still committed but that doesn't mean you can't make a point of asking GA why it doesn't make it clearer (I wouldn't argue about the state of first class itself as that damage is done by passengers, not the TOC).

I'd settle up as required and then write to GA and see if they might, given the full explanation of what happened, might be willing to give some rail vouchers to refund you, or at least state what plans it might have to stop others making the same mistake.

I've been in first class on a FCC train where there were no stickers (presumably they'd just replaced the windows or the anti-etch film) and the ONLY signs of it being first class was by seeing the antimacassars (seat covers) which are obviously hidden if people are sat down, and you could miss the one on your own seat. It may well have been temporary, but I doubt any RPIs would have seen it that way.

In the case of GA, it seems like the lack of obvious markings isn't a temporary thing.. but unfortunately there's not a lot you can do about it. As a route operated by driver only, penalty fares are in place - but that doesn't prevent a TOC opting to prosecute. It should be clearly written by the doors (to be fair to FCC, they do make it very clear) and opting to pay the extra is not an option purely because there's nobody there to take your money, except the occasional random ticket check.

[With regards to the photos; nobody can force you to delete the photos. Even the police must obtain a court order and the RPI could quite happily have taken action against you afterwards (which probably wouldn't go anywhere), but not stopp you from leaving before doing so. That might be worthy of a separate complaint].

 

[AeroSpace]

My point is that, why would I risk fines/court action just to save the £2.20? ie. I would have paid the £6.70 first class fare in the first place.

It would indeed be unlikely for someone to risk fines or court action in order to save £2.20, but this argument only holds up if people are actually prosecuted when they don't have the appropriate ticket.

 

[Clip]

Clip, I took a picture of the seats because I felt that it may help me show that the carriage was not what one would expect to be first class standard. No doors into section, no all-seat tables, poor signage, mud on seats etc.

Doesn't matter what the seats were like, you can see clearly that they were first class seats. Did it never cross your mind that the mud on there is from similar people who sit in there without a first class ticket and put there feet on the seats just like they do in standard.

 

[maniacmartin]

On suburban commuter lines, the benefit of travelling first class isn't nicer seats or refreshments, it's that you're more likely to get a seat on a crowded train with a first class ticket,

 

[VauxhallandI]

Just to make you aware in case you're not already, the first train of the day on a Saturday is timetabled to have first class as it's actually come all the way from Cambridge. It is at 05:19 from Theobalds though so I imagine it's not a train you frequently find yourself on!



Ah so you're an Enfield resident too. Indeed, the FCC trains from Gordon Hill don't ever have first class as far as I'm aware, and their standard class is often in better shape than GA's first class, so I can understand the confusion. No doubt you'd have realised soon enough that you were in first class once you noticed the antimacassars (the ‘bibs’ to which you refer); it is unfortunate that you were spotted by Greater Anglia's member of staff so soon after boarding.

By the way, I don't intend to be particularly anti-Greater-Anglia in this thread. I'm just particularly incensed by this incident because I have actually stood on those trains just outside the first class section in a packed commuter rush-hour and thought to myself that I bet something like this would happen one day. Sure, to a ‘trained’ eye it's easy to spot that it's first class (my goodness, arm rests!) but I've travelled with enough people who aren't so clued-up about train travel to realise that mistakes like this can easily be made.

Yep I had noticed that some of the trains at he start and end of the day do run First Class, just to muddy the water.