Heritage Rail Train Driver?

[E&W Lucas]

I don't want to get too deep into the NYMR incident, as the detailed working of locos is beyond my knowledge and it's obviously still a sensitive subject for many people. What I meant, though, is that, if the reverser hadn't slipped, no-one would have been any the wiser so there'd not have been an investigation. If anyone had become aware that it hadn't been locked into place (and I apologise now if I'm wrong and that it was a mechanical fault of some sort!) - an Inspector observing, for example - then I'd suggest that'd be handled as a disciplinary or competence matter rather than an 'incident' investigation. Would a TOC carry out a full investigation if (to pick a similar example) a Driver failed to set the DRA when required to?

There was no mechanical failure. A steam loco will "creep" into fore gear (due to the weight of the valve gear), if a reverser isn't locked. The action of unlock - adjust reverser - lock is one operation. It is instinctive and automatic. If you're training someone, and they don't lock it, then it's not an investigation or a phone call to the RAIB. It's a "Lock the ****ing thing!!!" from the other side of the cab!

Dave 1987 - you are obviously quoting from things you have read, rather than from any first hand experience of steam traction. As others have said, you do not know who is reading your words, so it might be more diplomatic if you kept off the Grosmont incident. If you read the report, you will also note where the driver involved learned his trade.

 

[Tomnick]

There was no mechanical failure. A steam loco will "creep" into fore gear (due to the weight of the valve gear), if a reverser isn't locked. The action of unlock - adjust reverser - lock is one operation. It is instinctive and automatic. If you're training someone, and they don't lock it, then it's not an investigation or a phone call to the RAIB. It's a "Lock the ****ing thing!!!" from the other side of the cab!

Thanks - I suspected as much, but didn't want to speak at length on something that I don't know that much about! That's a lesson in itself for some...

 

[AlexS]

The incident occurred and I'm sure a full investigation will take place and any findings will as per any investigations be shared with any relevant parties as 'best practice'.

As it happens, the consequences were relatively minor, a loco ended up on the deck and damaged a siding. Minor incidents can easily become major ones with minute changes in circumstances and I don't believe anyone would dispute that. Nonetheless, the safety feature provided (ie trap points to prevent an errant train from a siding fouling a main line) functioned as intended.

It doesn't necessarily indicate any more lethal failing in the heritage sector as for example when that Virgin driver cocked up and flung his class 90 through Bletchley at a rate of knots taking most of the infrastructure, or when those EMT HSTs got taken out at Neville Hill do for the national network. In both of those cases, they could have been much worse, but were by and large 'inconvenient', saved only by chance and circumstance (what about the 'issue' at Syston junction with passenger trains coming perilously close to bumping into one another last year, due to one error or another during degraded working).

Something went wrong, and the main thing to achieve is a full investigation, find out what went wrong, and put measures in place to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Heritage trains are real trains and Thomas is just as capable of killing someone as a dogbox if he's not managed safely.

For what it's worth, the GCR does have a comprehensive SMS and staff training/competency programme (it even has a defensive driving policy!) and I'm sure this will be reviewed if the findings suggest it needs to be.

 

[Dave1987]

There was no mechanical failure. A steam loco will "creep" into fore gear (due to the weight of the valve gear), if a reverser isn't locked. The action of unlock - adjust reverser - lock is one operation. It is instinctive and automatic. If you're training someone, and they don't lock it, then it's not an investigation or a phone call to the RAIB. It's a "Lock the ****ing thing!!!" from the other side of the cab!

Dave 1987 - you are obviously quoting from things you have read, rather than from any first hand experience of steam traction. As others have said, you do not know who is reading your words, so it might be more diplomatic if you kept off the Grosmont incident. If you read the report, you will also note where the driver involved learned his trade.

Indeed I am quoting from things I have read, I just don't like the way people are just making out that things like this aren't a big deal. It's almost as if the some people are just willing to just say never mind it isn't a big deal, no one was hurt this time so there is no need to make a big fuss about it. And it is that that I dont like. I was criticised for mentioning about the "blow back" that occured and again someone else posted something along the lines of "these things happen" and I just thought that is completely the wrong attitude to take and sends out all the wrong signals about peoples attitudes. Never mind I'm clearly one of the only ones who thinks that so I shall keep my opinions on it to myself in future.

 

[Legzr1]

I can't change your opinions, but with that mindset I am somewhat glad your hobby isn't working trains. Or flying planes. Or rock climbing. Or indeed anything that your actions could affect the safety of others!

I'm glad you're glad.

But, you miss the point.
I work 'on or about the line', work to deadlines and am paid for those duties.
Professional, NOT amateur.

When your livelihood depends on this profession it's human nature to switch on and concentrate a little more than if it were 'playing at trains' as a hobby.

Heritage railways aren't the mainline and the mainline isn't a heritage railway. Heritage railways work in a much different (but still, on the most part, incredibly safe) manner because their primary focus is as a visitor attraction, not a transport undertaking.

Hmmm, you could almost be describing a circus.
Far be it for me to put words into your mouth of course...

I do find some posts suggesting that I am incompetent by virtue of being a volunteer on a heritage line very insulting (and there have been such posts on this forum)

I can't remember saying that but a distinction has to be made between professional and amateur don't you agree?

So BASICs doctors that volunteer to respond to critical care emergencies are amateurs then?

You're getting confused.

You can't compare fully trained medical staff responding to emergencies in rest time with (for example) trained bankers who want to be train drivers so do it in their spare time at 25 mph for 'fun' or as some sort of 'visitor attraction'.

Well, actually, you can compare them but it's a little silly and short-sighted.

It doesn't matter. However if he doesn't take safety seriously in his hobbies, then, like Jon, I hope his hobbies don't involve safety!

There you lot go again...

Where did I say I didn't take safety seriously?

I said "I take FAR more care at my place of work than I do with my hobbies."

Just as I take "FAR more care" with food out of the oven compared with food out of the fridge.

Does that make me a danger handling milk, cheese and eggs? :roll:



I wish some of you 'enthusiasts' would quit reading what you think I've written and stop jumping on the defensive with misquotes and misunderstandings in some desperate bid to defend poor old vulnerable heritage railways.

It gives certain people 'something to do' at a weekend - I get that.
It gives small children something to look at too - I get that.

However, real trains it is not.

You're free to enjoy your hobby (it doesn't really affect me either way) but don't pretend it's anything other than what it is.

 

[Dave1987]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr5EztEPJS8

Video of discussed incident.

 

[E&W Lucas]

It gives certain people 'something to do' at a weekend - I get that.
It gives small children something to look at too - I get that.

However, real trains it is not.

You're free to enjoy your hobby (it doesn't really affect me either way) but don't pretend it's anything other than what it is.

As someone that does both, I think I'm fairly well qualified to dispute that.

1. Heritage railways are big business. Some are major employers, and bring in tens of millions of pounds to their local economies.

2. The obligations on the directors of these companies, are the same as those of any other. Things go wrong, and they too can find themselves in the dock. Focuses the mind somewhat.

3. Don't be a snob, just because you are getting paid. The issue of volunteer professionalism was investigated by HMRI when the NYMR was putting forward its safety case for Whitby. The conclusion, was that the volunteer actually WANTS to be there. The fact that he is a vlunteer, makes absolutely no difference to his professionalism.

4. There are a heck of a lot of mainline people volunteering on their days off..

5. Plenty of volunteers are getting jobs on the mainline, especially trainee driver.


It's not 125 in fog, but these volunteers do have to be railwaymen in the broader sense. You still need railway sense and professionalism; get it wrong, and you still damage things or people. Witness the footage from Loughborough last weekend.

 

[Legzr1]

As someone that does both

I'm guessing you're about to start a defensive crusade now?

Hardly unbiased then...

1. Heritage railways are big business. Some are major employers, and bring in tens of millions of pounds to their local economies.

Big business?

Perhaps in comparison to a corner shop.

I see NYMR are celebrating 40 years in business this week and I genuinely congratulate them on that but that takes nothing away from the fact that they operate predominately at 25mph on a private railway using lots and lots of volunteers.
It's a world away from regulated NR infrastructure - even the most blinkered of enthusiasts must see that?

2. The obligations on the directors of these companies, are the same as those of any other. Things go wrong, and they too can find themselves in the dock. Focuses the mind somewhat.

And, by definition, that 'obligation' filters all the way down to all volunteer staff too?

I think not.

3. Don't be a snob, just because you are getting paid.

It's a shame that pointing out flaws in your argument makes me a 'snob'.

I'm highlighting the realities out there, try some respect please.

4. There are a heck of a lot of mainline people volunteering on their days off..

And?

Got any stats?

5. Plenty of volunteers are getting jobs on the mainline, especially trainee driver.

And?

Got any stats?

I'd argue that in (4) they do it as it's a far more relaxed atmosphere and in (5) they have to 'up their game' somewhat to even be considered for interview - if successful, and once the real work starts they'd have to be a lot more switched on.

That is my point.

It's not 125 in fog

Nope.

It's not even 1/4 of that.

I doubt it utilises even 30% of the rule book.
Do these 'safety cases' mention dangerous goods?
What about OTMR downloads?
GSMR or RETB?

but these volunteers do have to be railwaymen in the broader sense. You still need railway sense and professionalism; get it wrong, and you still damage things or people. Witness the footage from Loughborough last weekend.

Yes, I'll give you that (in as much as a volunteer will know more about the 'railway' than, say, a milkman for example) but let's take your example:

Will the driver now be faced with an enquiry with the distinct possibility of losing his job, career and only income (and all the ills associated with that) ?

Will he have his 'card marked' or SOL record amended making further gainful employment very tricky at best?

Will he be subject to further rideouts / downloads?

Will he be subject to a 'plan' that will involve studies into sleep and rest habits, diet in the preceding days/weeks or even personal issues at home?

No?

Hardly a fair comparison or anywhere like the pressure then is it?

Forgive me for using 'hearsay' (I know that you in particular aren't too fond of it) but I do happen to work with a lot of the people you mention.
I have friends and colleagues who give up their free time to 'volunteer' their services.
Hell, a few of them are even part-owners of a few diesel loco's.

And one thing shines through - it's a laugh, a hobby and a way to relieve the pressures of real railways.

I have no doubt that they enjoy what they're doing - each to their own I guess - but to suggest that the professionalism shown in each case is equal is just plain daft (in my honest opinion).

 

[AlexS]

Legzr1, you are making generalisations to the point of idiocy.

The majority of heritage railway staff I work with are extremely conscientious and do their best to work diligently to the rules and carry their passengers safely. They generally manage to do so despite working with many hazards that aren't present on mainline trains such as proper slam door rolling stock without the benefit of locking etc. Yes, there are bad eggs who just think they are playing trains, or who don't pay attention to what they are doing, but they are in the minority and most take their training and ongoing competency seriously. See the next paragraph...


The majority of National Rail staff I work with are extremely conscientious and do their best to work diligently to the rules and carry their passengers safely. They generally manage to do so despite working with many hazards that aren't present on heritage railways, such as large numbers of drunken passengers on Friday/Saturday nights and higher linespeeds, and larger passenger numbers in general (in most cases). Yes, there are some bad eggs who cut corners because they only come in to do the job for the money, or want an easy life and can't be bothered, or will do anything to get 'a flyer', but they are in the minority.

May I also point out reference your point regarding livelihoods and concentrating more, that it's also human nature to switch off and concentrate less during regular repetitive tasks, which is a good description for many lines of railway work.

Both kind of jobs have people who have positive and negative attributes, for different reasons.

 

[Dave1987]

Alex S

I think Legzr1 does have a point. Will the people involved in this incident have this go on their records? With they be put on a plan and have more regular performance monitoring? I don't know how the heritage system working when a serious incident like this happens? Could you enlighten us to the process that happens with the heritage railways when an incident like this occurs?

 

[Legzr1]

Legzr1, you are making generalisations to the point of idiocy.

Well, thanks for that.

I made a number of points which you've chosen to ignore.

I'd argue they are valid points (based in reality and using experience) but to you they are idiotic 'generalisations'?

May I also point out reference your point regarding livelihoods and concentrating more, that it's also human nature to switch off and concentrate less during regular repetitive tasks, which is a good description for many lines of railway work.

Let me get this right - 'concentration' can be an issue no matter whether the railway be real or not and yet, a professional with a family, bills and dependents is no more 'switched on' than a volunteer in it for the s**ts and giggles?

I disagree.

Both kind of jobs have people who have positive and negative attributes, for different reasons.

Perhaps.

But I'd argue (and have done!) that the reality is simple - if you're in it for fun there's far less to worry about in terms of repercussions than if you were in it to provide for a family, home and decent pension.

That point seems to be passing you by...

Alex S

I think Legzr1 does have a point. Will the people involved in this incident have this go on their records? With they be put on a plan and have more regular performance monitoring? I don't know how the heritage system working when a serious incident like this happens? Could you enlighten us to the process that happens with the heritage railways when an incident like this occurs?

I'm pleased someone else gets my point!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Alex S

I think Legzr1 does have a point. Will the people involved in this incident have this go on their records?

Depending on the outcome of the investigation, yes.

With they be put on a plan and have more regular performance monitoring?

Depending on the outcome of the investigation, yes.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Alex S

I think Legzr1 does have a point. Will the people involved in this incident have this go on their records? With they be put on a plan and have more regular performance monitoring? I don't know how the heritage system working when a serious incident like this happens? Could you enlighten us to the process that happens with the heritage railways when an incident like this occurs?

As per mainline. Investigation, incl. HMRI, RAIB, etc, medscreen, competence management/ discipline of staff involved. Removal from duty or retraining as required. All monitored by the Minor Railways section of the ORR. Possible prosecutions of organisations or individuals.

Most of what you posted above earlier is bile. The major railways have turnovers in the millions, and paid staffs of around the 100 mark in some cases. Some corner shop. The money they bring into their local economy is beyond question.

As for the Rule Book, the next time I'm volunteering, I will be using the NR rule book, parts of which I doubt you have been trained on, and some other instructions that I can pretty much guarantee that you are not.

As for the Loughborough accident, it's precisely the sort of thing that makes the "RED" films (operational training programms), you know, the ones about f*** ups on the "proper" railway.

As for enjoyment - that doesn't affect professionalism either. I'm going to be doing upwards of 500 miles of high speed loco hauled driving this afternoon. I'm looking forward to it. I am going to enjoy my afternoon at work. I will still be professional, I will just be relaxed and happy.

 

[MattRobinson]

if you are a volunteer you can call in and say I don't want to do that today so will not be there

But if you do that in many operating roles (driver, fireman, signalman, guard), it's likely that the railway won't run and you won't be flavour of the month. OK, it won't affect your job, but you'll lose a lot of trust on the railway and possibly be facing a few questions.

I doubt it utilises even 30% of the rule book.
Do these 'safety cases' mention dangerous goods? What about OTMR downloads? GSMR or RETB?

The rule book covers the way that the railway works. If that 30% of the NR rulebook is sufficient, why does it need to cover any more?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[tiptoptaff]

Nice to see the usual suspects are back out on their crusade to remove heritage traction and those involved with it from existence.

At the end of the day, preserved railways are still passenger carrying railways, and are subject to the same regulations that govern passenger travel on the big railway. The training required for crews has been set out by the ORR, the medical is exactly the same, we have the same drug and alcohol testing and regulatins governing that. We have to take PTS, albeit simplified as we don't, admittadly work with 125mph running, 3/4th rail electrification, etc. Still can't train in SC roles until you're 18.

Plus, we enjoy it, and we want to be there! About half of my MPD are PROFESSIONAL railwaymen in some form or another, but we all carry ourselves with a highly proffesional attitude, we take pride and care in what we do. Everything is done on the side of caution. Everything we do is taken extremley seriously.

It bores me to hear the constant snobbery from the likes of some professional drivers. But if we were so below you, answer me this, why are there so many professional railwaymen working unpaid with every weekend, for nothing more than the love of it?

Poitn of note may also be that some of the best drivers and fireman, guards and signallers on preserved lines come from no railway background at all....

 

[Dave1987]

As per mainline. Investigation, incl. HMRI, RAIB, etc, medscreen, competence management/ discipline of staff involved. Removal from duty or retraining as required. All monitored by the Minor Railways section of the ORR. Possible prosecutions of organisations or individuals.

Most of what you posted above earlier is bile. The major railways have turnovers in the millions, and paid staffs of around the 100 mark in some cases. Some corner shop. The money they bring into their local economy is beyond question.

As for the Rule Book, the next time I'm volunteering, I will be using the NR rule book, parts of which I doubt you have been trained on, and some other instructions that I can pretty much guarantee that you are not.

As for the Loughborough accident, it's precisely the sort of thing that makes the "RED" films (operational training programms), you know, the ones about f*** ups on the "proper" railway.

As for enjoyment - that doesn't affect professionalism either. I'm going to be doing upwards of 500 miles of high speed loco hauled driving this afternoon. I'm looking forward to it. I am going to enjoy my afternoon at work. I will still be professional, I will just be relaxed and happy.

I never mentioned the rule book or turnover for heritage lines as I do not know what the rule book for heritage lines is and have no idea how much money goes through their accounts. I'm sure the rule book can't be the same as the one we follow from the RSSB though, if it is then fair enough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nice to see the usual suspects are back out on their crusade to remove heritage traction and those involved with it from existence.

At the end of the day, preserved railways are still passenger carrying railways, and are subject to the same regulations that govern passenger travel on the big railway. The training required for crews has been set out by the ORR, the medical is exactly the same, we have the same drug and alcohol testing and regulatins governing that. We have to take PTS, albeit simplified as we don't, admittadly work with 125mph running, 3/4th rail electrification, etc. Still can't train in SC roles until you're 18.

Plus, we enjoy it, and we want to be there! About half of my MPD are PROFESSIONAL railwaymen in some form or another, but we all carry ourselves with a highly proffesional attitude, we take pride and care in what we do. Everything is done on the side of caution. Everything we do is taken extremley seriously.

It bores me to hear the constant snobbery from the likes of some professional drivers. But if we were so below you, answer me this, why are there so many professional railwaymen working unpaid with every weekend, for nothing more than the love of it?

Poitn of note may also be that some of the best drivers and fireman, guards and signallers on preserved lines come from no railway background at all....

My point is the fact you labelled some pretty serious incidents as minor and said it could happen to anyone. It would seem there is a definite difference in culture between the mainline and heritage lines. I've also heard of crews on heritage lines not complying with the hidden guidelines by doing up to 14 hours work.

 

[Tomnick]

It would seem there is a definite difference in culture between the mainline and heritage lines. I've also heard of crews on heritage lines not complying with the hidden guidelines by doing up to 14 hours work.

I've heard of crews on the mainline (DCR etc.) not complying with the Hidden guidelines by doing up to 18 hours' work. I don't know that that's the case though. Certainly the GCR, at least, applies the Hidden guidelines very enthusiastically - more so, in fact, than my 'big railway' employer which allows eight hours between Saturday and Sunday turns.

But, you miss the point.
I work 'on or about the line', work to deadlines and am paid for those duties.
Professional, NOT amateur.

When your livelihood depends on this profession it's human nature to switch on and concentrate a little more than if it were 'playing at trains' as a hobby.

I take the point, implied by both of you, that it is very much a different atmosphere. It's refreshing to know, as a volunteer Signalman, that I can get on with making sensible regulating decisions, for example, without being pestered by a TDA clerk many miles away in York. However, I take my duties just as seriously, not because my livelihood depends on it (it doesn't, not withstanding the opportunity for my employer to find out about, and take action in response to, anything that goes wrong), but rather because I know that the safety of potentially hundreds of passengers, and fellow volunteers, depends on my actions. I don't think you'll find that I'm alone in that; indeed, anyone who clearly isn't prepared, or able, to take responsibility for their actions should be weedled out during the training and assessment processes, which are necessarily thorough.

 

[TDK]

As for the Loughborough accident, it's precisely the sort of thing that makes the "RED" films (operational training programms), you know, the ones about f*** ups on the "proper" railway.

You need to compare the amount of trains run on heratage against the amount of trains run mainline and then compare the incidents on a percentage basis to create a comparison arguament
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've heard of crews on the mainline (DCR etc.) not complying with the Hidden guidelines by doing up to 18 hours' work. I don't know that that's the case though.

Is this hearsay Tomnick, I have never known any company encouraging Safety critical workers to break Hidden 18. I have never known it to happen except for late running when a driver is stuck in the middle of nowhere for a long period of time for over 12 hours and then this has to be logged by the company.

- more so, in fact, than my 'big railway' employer which allows eight hours between Saturday and Sunday turns.

For safety critical roles? I doubt it

 

[Tomnick]

You need to compare the amount of trains run on heratage against the amount of trains run mainline and then compare the incidents on a percentage basis to create a comparison arguament

We're still waiting for you to do that, since you suggested it first!

Is this hearsay Tomnick, I have never known any company encouraging Safety critical workers to break Hidden 18. I have never known it to happen except for late running when a driver is stuck in the middle of nowhere for a long period of time for over 12 hours and then this has to be logged by the company.

It is hearsay - just like Dave's suggestion that heritage railways allow crews to work 14 hour turns.

For safety critical roles? I doubt it

Doubt it if you wish, but I assure you that it's the case.

 

[TDK]

We're still waiting for you to do that, since you suggested it first!

It's not my arguament Tom, as to be fair I am not an enthusiast and have nothing to defend or prove!

Doubt it if you wish, but I assure you that it's the case.

Are you actually saying that your big employer (Railway I presume) rosters you or others 8 hours rest between shifts? I beg to differ on this one and think it is utter BS

 

[Tomnick]

It's not my arguament Tom, as to be fair I am not an enthusiast and have nothing to defend or prove!

Well I'm happy to let it go as long as you are...and as long as no-one tries making comparisons between the rate of incidents between heritage railway and the national network without presenting such figures .

Are you actually saying that your big employer (Railway I presume) rosters you or others 8 hours rest between shifts? I beg to differ on this one and think it is utter BS

Rightly or wrongly, yes, that's the case - as far as I'm aware, it's only allowed between Saturday and Sunday. Having recently been rostered to finish at 2215 Saturday for an 0630 start on Sunday, I can assure you that I'm not making it up!

 

[Legzr1]

I never mentioned the rule book or turnover for heritage lines .

I know you didn't but in his haste to rubbish my views and experiences he's responding to the wrong member.

Could I be bold and suggest that perhaps because he isn't being paid to post here, does it for fun and as a hobby his powers of concentration slipped?

No harm.
Not as if his mortgage depends on it...

Most of what you posted above earlier is bile.

I'm guessing that's aimed at me as your idea of a 'real and professional railway' differs slightly from my definition.

'Bile' because my idea of 'fun' isn't spending my whole week at work just to do exactly the same thing in my spare time?

That is your choice (and you're welcome to it) but when I ask for a little respect I get that in response.

Perhaps our conversation is over if you can't remain civil.

Rightly or wrongly, yes, that's the case - as far as I'm aware, it's only allowed between Saturday and Sunday. Having recently been rostered to finish at 2215 Saturday for an 0630 start on Sunday, I can assure you that I'm not making it up!

For such a high profile and safety critical position (which could be argued is more intensive than driving trains) that fact is truly atrocious !

It's not my arguament Tom, as to be fair I am not an enthusiast and have nothing to defend or prove!

Leaving aside the argument over who should supply the stats for a moment, I'd be very interested to hear of any accurate figures.

I have my suspicions over which has the most incidents per km/tonne/passenger numbers (and I suspect we share the same suspicions ).

 

[Dave1987]

We're still waiting for you to do that, since you suggested it first!

It is hearsay - just like Dave's suggestion that heritage railways allow crews to work 14 hour turns.

Doubt it if you wish, but I assure you that it's the case.

I know for a fact on a gala they had a crew that booked on at 06.30 and didn't book off until 20.30. I know this because the fireman looked exhausted, when asked why he looked so tired by a sympathetic member of the public he said he had had a long day the day before and explained what he had been doing which included what time he booked on and off. It didnt seem to me he was even aware of the hidden 18 guidelines, but of course I don't know for a fact whether he did or not. He was very casual about it and the way he talked about it it seemed to be the norm. Needless to say I didn't say anything about it.

 

[TDK]

Well I'm happy to let it go as long as you are...and as long as no-one tries making comparisons between the rate of incidents between heritage railway and the national network without presenting such figures .

Rightly or wrongly, yes, that's the case - as far as I'm aware, it's only allowed between Saturday and Sunday. Having recently been rostered to finish at 2215 Saturday for an 0630 start on Sunday, I can assure you that I'm not making it up!

That is illegal and should be addressed by the unions, would be interesting to know what company - PM me if you want to divulge. We are talking Train Operating Company here and also Safety Critical roles? If so to be fair it needs to addressed!

 

[Tomnick]

Well if that sort of thing happens on a regular basis (as opposed to a one-off when it's all gone wrong and a train's trapped somewhere!), then it's clearly wrong - I won't try to argue otherwise!

It's worth noting that, as far as I'm aware, everyone defending heritage railways on this thread has been doing so from experience gained on one of the well-established lines (GCR, NYMR, ELR and MHR, at least, 'represented' so far, I think...). It'd be foolish to pretend that all lines take things quite as seriously - I'd agree that one or two of the smaller lines (no names mentioned!) do perhaps view it more as "playing trains", so a bad experience at one of those lines doesn't necessarily mean that the whole heritage railway industry is getting it wrong!

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Yes, although an ambulance trust major incident should initiate MI procedures in acute trusts. It depends whether an internal major incident or an external major incident is declared.

A major incident is simply where there are not enough resources to manage the event.

which was my point , the recent Significant RTC on the M62 between the minicoach and the farmfoods wagon as an example

i'm not sure if the acute trust did go for major incident status but the number of casualties meant it was almost certainly a major incident for YAS - as witnessed by the presence of an additional 4 air ambulances as well as YAAs 98 and 99 ...

a major incident for the ambulance service can be smaller than that - i recall one was *nearly* declared a few years ago in N lincs for an RTC with 7 casualties and had all 7 needed a trolley it would have been - as it was the Duty Officer allowed sitting cases to be transported with trolley patients and took the least injured patient to A+E in his works car single manned ( stretching the rules at the time that said RRVs shouldn;t be used to transport emergency patients )

 

[GB]

I used to work for Network Rail and can confirm what Tomnick said about short turn arounds on Saturday/Sunday. It is legal and forms part of the national rostering principles which the union has agreed to.

 

[WSW]

I wish some of you 'enthusiasts' would quit reading what you think I've written and stop jumping on the defensive with misquotes and misunderstandings in some desperate bid to defend poor old vulnerable heritage railways.

It gives certain people 'something to do' at a weekend - I get that.
It gives small children something to look at too - I get that.

However, real trains it is not.

You're free to enjoy your hobby (it doesn't really affect me either way) but don't pretend it's anything other than what it is.

I'm afraid, Legzr1, you are mistaken. I can only speak for one railway but I can assure you everything that applies on the "big" railway, applies on the WSR too.

Whilst the WSR is marketed as a "heritage" railway, the operational requirements are no different to those on other railways (such as yours).

I'm sure the WSR's full time staff (50+) will be much amused by your claim that they are "amateur". All operational WSR staff (paid and volunteer are not distinguished - they are "staff") are subject to the very same examinations and qualifications and discipline that you are.

The size of the organisation (I think earlier you used the comparison of a "corner shop") has no bearing whatsover - the requirements are identical across all railways. Neither does the max speed change the basic operational processes.

As for your assumption that it is a "hobby" done at "weekends" I suspect the guys who handled the HOBC today (and yesterday and tomorrow) might wish to challenge you!

Of course there are differences across all railways and these differences are reflected in the various documents necessary to operate the railway.

The WSR works closely with ORR who demand the WSR is run wholly professionally. I'm sure the ORR's demands on the GCR are the same.

Maybe, if you have some time, you could come along and have a look for yourself - I'm sure you would find the experience very rewarding.

Steve E
wsr.org.uk

 

[Legzr1]

Rather than stretch this out any further than is really necessary I will say that " WSR's full time staff " were never my intended target (and most of my posts mentioning 'volunteers' should have given that away).

However, all other rubbish aside I appreciate the offer:

Maybe, if you have some time, you could come along and have a look for yourself - I'm sure you would find the experience very rewarding.

Steve E
wsr.org.uk

As I pm'd to a few members, I'm old enough (and ugly enough) to admit my experience of 'smaller' railways might not be exactly encyclopedic so PM me some details and I might take you up on the offer

 

[TDK]

I used to work for Network Rail and can confirm what Tomnick said about short turn arounds on Saturday/Sunday. It is legal and forms part of the national rostering principles which the union has agreed to.

Not for train drivers and guards it's not