Heritage Rail Train Driver?

[Tomnick]

The National Rostering Principles form an agreement specifically with Network Rail (for the signalling grades only?), not the TOCs, FOCs or anyone else.

 

[GB]

Not for train drivers and guards it's not

I don't dispute that. Just saying that there are safety critical roles that do have such rostering practices.

 

[WSW]

Rather than stretch this out any further than is really necessary I will say that " WSR's full time staff " were never my intended target (and most of my posts mentioning 'volunteers' should have given that away).

However, all other rubbish aside I appreciate the offer:




As I pm'd to a few members, I'm old enough (and ugly enough) to admit my experience of 'smaller' railways might not be exactly encyclopedic so PM me some details and I might take you up on the offer

Nothing to do with "volunteers". The WSR has only "staff". Some are paid, some are not. All fully trained and qualified for the job they do. The WSR is not permitted to operate with unqualified staff.

No need for a PM, let's keep this discussion public, after all there is nothing to hide! Just come and see it any time and day to suit yourself. Check the websites for details. If you want to go to non-public areas, you'll need explicit permission, a WSR PTS of course (insurance requirement as you will know) at your cost, and you'll need a "minder" (just as I would expect if I was to go onto NR). I'm sure you'll find it a valuable exercise.

Steve E
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[455driver]

<Re WSR>

As I pm'd to a few members, I'm old enough (and ugly enough) to admit my experience of 'smaller' railways might not be exactly encyclopedic so PM me some details and I might take you up on the offer

Make sure you leave the station quickly after the last train though (5 minutes in our case), if you dont a volunteer (who wants to lock up and go home for his tea) will demand you leave the station and also get in the way of a 9 year old taking pictures as we both walked (quickly) towards the exit.

Actually, thinking about it, it was the same bloke that moaned about us using our free tickets a couple of years ago (that we hadnt asked for) after Braunton had set light to the lineside and we ended up an hour late, I actually wrote in to compliment the railway on the way they had kept the passengers informed and we were sent the free tickets.

 

[AlexS]

Well, thanks for that.

I made a number of points which you've chosen to ignore.

I'd argue they are valid points (based in reality and using experience) but to you they are idiotic 'generalisations'?

May I also point out reference your point regarding livelihoods and concentrating more, that it's also human nature to switch off and concentrate less during regular repetitive tasks, which is a good description for many lines of railway work.

Let me get this right - 'concentration' can be an issue no matter whether the railway be real or not and yet, a professional with a family, bills and dependents is no more 'switched on' than a volunteer in it for the s**ts and giggles?

I disagree.

Both kind of jobs have people who have positive and negative attributes, for different reasons.

Perhaps.

But I'd argue (and have done!) that the reality is simple - if you're in it for fun there's far less to worry about in terms of repercussions than if you were in it to provide for a family, home and decent pension.

That point seems to be passing you by...






I'm pleased someone else gets my point!

Your whole argument seems to be on the basis that the only manner in which a good job can be assured is by 'the stick' (of the carrot and stick variety) of being employed and having a mortgage to pay.

I love the time spent as a heritage railway signalman, and I make sure I know what I'm about because I can directly impact the safety of those who travel on our trains, and that of my friends and colleagues.

As a safety critical TOC employee I make sure I do my job properly because I want to keep my passengers and colleagues safe and happy.

Money and it being a paid job does not come into it. I get paid because I need to to live, but I love my job and I would happily do it without the remuneration because it makes me happy.

So, I do, in my spare time. That's not to say I'm a Network Rail signalman, but I am in a safety critical grade both for a TOC and a heritage railway.

And I can say hand on heart I do both because I love doing them and I do them well because I feel it's important to keep my passengers safe.

Yes, there'll be the odd volunteer that just likes dressing up.

Just the same as there'll be the odd paid employee of a 'Big Railway' organisation that will cut corners to save time/effort.

I don't give a toss about the financial repercussions. My main concern, in both arenas, is keeping everyone safe and happy, which is by far the most important thing.

I don't require 'the stick' of my pay cheque to do my job properly, regardless of what it is. I have pride in my work.

 

[455driver]

Can I ask a question of all TOC train crew on here-

When you are catching a train as a normal passenger do you find yourself inadvertantly checking the signal before you get on the train, yes or no!

 

[Legzr1]

after all there is nothing to hide!

I wasn't suggesting otherwise.
I was simply trying to keep the thread tidy.

I'll check out the website, thanks.

Wibble

Ermm, you need to ask a question or make a point without quoting as I'm afraid I haven't a clue what point you're trying to make...

Make sure you leave the station quickly after the last train though (5 minutes in our case), if you dont a volunteer (who wants to lock up and go home for his tea) will demand you leave the station and also get in the way of a 9 year old taking pictures as we both walked (quickly) towards the exit.

Actually, thinking about it, it was the same bloke that moaned about us using our free tickets a couple of years ago (that we hadnt asked for) after Braunton had set light to the lineside and we ended up an hour late, I actually wrote in to compliment the railway on the way they had kept the passengers informed and we were sent the free tickets.

Sounds well dodgy

Can I ask a question of all (big railway (sorry)) train crew on here-

When you are catching a train as a normal passenger do you find yourself inadvertantly checking the signal before you get on the train, yes or no!

No.

Should I?

 

[E&W Lucas]

I'm guessing that's aimed at me as your idea of a 'real and professional railway' differs slightly from my definition.

'Bile' because my idea of 'fun' isn't spending my whole week at work just to do exactly the same thing in my spare time?

That is your choice (and you're welcome to it) but when I ask for a little respect I get that in response.

Not everyone need to have the big stick of loss of livelyhood hanging over them, to work in a professional manner. If you need that, then you do right to keep away from voluntary work. And if I'm driving on NR infrastructure, on behalf of a Heritage railway, can you please explain why that isn't "real and professional"?
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Can I ask a question of all TOC train crew on here-

When you are catching a train as a normal passenger do you find yourself inadvertantly checking the signal before you get on the train, yes or no!

Yes, or shutting a coach door that's on a latch, or subconsciously performing any number of other safety checks, that you do instinctively. It comes from working in an environment for a long period. It's automatic.

 

[AlexS]

I check for signals, tail lights, and anything obviously wrong with passing trains. It's just drummed into you.

It doesn't really register that I'm doing it, but I do - I've stopped an ECS dogbox leaving with whites on the back before which was worthwhile in that it saved the train being stopped and the driver getting a talking to.

The point, as it appears to have got lost in a broken quote, by the way, was that I disagree with the point that a human being requires the stick (as in carrot and stick) of financial remuneration to do a decent job of something.

Personal pride and concern for the safety of others are quite equal. Having seen myself a driver going shooting down the wrong road of a carriage siding at 'real work', having not checked the hand points because he wanted to get done - that could easily have turned into splitting them and being off the road.

Then the 'carrot' of the same amount of money, for getting away more quickly and doing less work, could have caused an accident.

The same as the guards who dispatch trains without returning to the platform as per the rulebook because they simply can't be arsed, or the signalmen who don't work their signalboxes correctly because slack working is easier.

As I say, I know both areas of work and I see crap behaviour in both - but I have to say I see more of it on the national network than I do on the heritage line!

 

[Dave1987]

I check for signals, tail lights, and anything obviously wrong with passing trains. It's just drummed into you.

It doesn't really register that I'm doing it, but I do - I've stopped an ECS dogbox leaving with whites on the back before which was worthwhile in that it saved the train being stopped and the driver getting a talking to.

The point, as it appears to have got lost in a broken quote, by the way, was that I disagree with the point that a human being requires the stick (as in carrot and stick) of financial remuneration to do a decent job of something.

Personal pride and concern for the safety of others are quite equal. Having seen myself a driver going shooting down the wrong road of a carriage siding at 'real work', having not checked the hand points because he wanted to get done - that could easily have turned into splitting them and being off the road.

Then the 'carrot' of the same amount of money, for getting away more quickly and doing less work, could have caused an accident.

The same as the guards who dispatch trains without returning to the platform as per the rulebook because they simply can't be arsed, or the signalmen who don't work their signalboxes correctly because slack working is easier.

As I say, I know both areas of work and I see crap behaviour in both - but I have to say I see more of it on the national network than I do on the heritage line!

I've heard plenty of stories of people on the main line who have cut corners to get the job done quicker, but all the ones I've heard of are either no longer safety critical or were sacked completely. Don't think I've heard of a single serious incident or even a minor incident come to think of it where the driver involved hasn't received an action plan of some kind or been taken off of driving completely! Are you saying this happens on preserved lines as well? Because the rhetoric I get from the other heritage guys on this thread is that these pretty serious incidents are seen as minor and just a slap on the wrist, don't do it again kind of thing.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I've heard plenty of stories of people on the main line who have cut corners to get the job done quicker, but all the ones I've heard of are either no longer safety critical or were sacked completely. Don't think I've heard of a single serious incident or even a minor incident come to think of it where the driver involved hasn't received an action plan of some kind or been taken off of driving completely! Are you saying this happens on preserved lines as well? Because the rhetoric I get from the other heritage guys on this thread is that these pretty serious incidents are seen as minor and just a slap on the wrist, don't do it again kind of thing.

H&S legislation applies to heritage railways, the same as it does to any other business. Certain types of accident have to be notified to the authorities. Railway specific, think derailment, spad, collision, etc. Depending on the severity, they may or may not carry out their own additional investigation. They have to have risk assessments and documented proof of maintenance, competence of individuals, etc.

As for individuals, I can think of several who have been removed from safety critical work, after incidents. Permanently, or demoted, retrained and made to pass out again.

 

[Tomnick]

I've heard plenty of stories of people on the main line who have cut corners to get the job done quicker, but all the ones I've heard of are either no longer safety critical or were sacked completely. Don't think I've heard of a single serious incident or even a minor incident come to think of it where the driver involved hasn't received an action plan of some kind or been taken off of driving completely! Are you saying this happens on preserved lines as well? Because the rhetoric I get from the other heritage guys on this thread is that these pretty serious incidents are seen as minor and just a slap on the wrist, don't do it again kind of thing.

A derailment of a loco on a set of traps or within a siding is, I still maintain, a relatively minor incident. That doesn't mean, as I've tried to suggest repeatedly, that the subsequent investigation and actions aren't taken seriously.

 

[Dave1987]

A derailment of a loco on a set of traps or within a siding is, I still maintain, a relatively minor incident. That doesn't mean, as I've tried to suggest repeatedly, that the subsequent investigation and actions aren't taken seriously.

Well I disagree, any kind of derailment no matter whether on a 125mph running line or a 5mph siding is a serious incident. I know of at least two derailments that have happened in sidings on the mainline and both were considered to be serious incidents. Both involved hand points not being all the way across after being changed. Like I said there seems to be a definite difference in perception between heritage and mainline.

 

[E&W Lucas]

A derailment of a loco on a set of traps or within a siding is, I still maintain, a relatively minor incident. That doesn't mean, as I've tried to suggest repeatedly, that the subsequent investigation and actions aren't taken seriously.

You are totally right. Derailments have to be notified to HMRI. They calculate the potential consequences. <5 mph, NPCS, siding, no running line fouled (and not liely to be, due to the trap points), and that adjacent very low speed anyway.

Compare that, for example to the EMT derailment of the not too distant past. Thankfully no one hurt, but potential?

Heritage lines have their share of incidents, but the potential consequences of them are, in many cases, very much lower. We're not talking about high speed SPADs of junction signals!

 

[455driver]

I check for signals, tail lights, and anything obviously wrong with passing trains. It's just drummed into you.

It doesn't really register that I'm doing it, but I do

Which is the point I wanted to make, when doing things every day you just do it instinctively without having to think about it where-as "weekenders" would have to think about it all with the posibility of missing something.

I am definitely not one of the "big railway good, small railway bad" camp but people are taking things to extremes to try and make their point.

Some volunteers shouldnt be let loose on a Hornby* trainset but the vast majority are excellent, paying somebody wont make them do a job properly if their heart isnt in it, but if they are of the correct mindset then they will do it right every time paid or not.

I agree with the rest of AlexS post entirely.

* other model manufacturers available (I prefer Bachmann anyway!)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Which is the point I wanted to make, when doing things every day you just do it instinctively without having to think about it where-as "weekenders" would have to think about it all with the posibility of missing something.

Yes, there is the problem of skill fade. It means you have to remain totally on the ball when you are working. However even with doing irregular turns after a while you start getting to the point when you don't have to consciously think "I must check the signal now".

 

[Dave1987]

You are totally right. Derailments have to be notified to HMRI. They calculate the potential consequences. <5 mph, NPCS, siding, no running line fouled (and not liely to be, due to the trap points), and that adjacent very low speed anyway.

Compare that, for example to the EMT derailment of the not too distant past. Thankfully no one hurt, but potential?

Heritage lines have their share of incidents, but the potential consequences of them are, in many cases, very much lower. We're not talking about high speed SPADs of junction signals!

You know it amazing, the two derailments I know of at very low speed over hand points were both considered to be serious incidents.

 

[Tomnick]

As serious as a high speed collision involving two or more trains and hundreds of passengers? It's all relative!

 

[Dave1987]

As serious as a high speed collision involving two or more trains and hundreds of passengers? It's all relative!

Look I have been taught that any derailment is a serious incident. You and the other Heritage ppl on here seem to think that just because it was at slow speed over catch point that it isn't anything serious at all. We will see how serious the RAIB think it is won't we. Any way end of argument!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Look I have been taught that any derailment is a serious incident. You and the other Heritage ppl on here seem to think that just because it was at slow speed over catch point that it isn't anything serious at all. We will see how serious the RAIB think it is won't we. Any way end of argument!

Nobody has suggested that the incident does not warrant a careful, detailed and considered investigation with the root cause identified and, if appropriate, measures taken to ensure that the recurrence of a similar incident is minimised.

What we are suggesting is that in the grand scheme of accidents, a low speed derailment on a siding which does not foul any running lines, with no injuries and no major asset damage is not a major incident like Grayrigg.

 

[Beveridges]

But it "could" have been

For example, imagine if it fouled an adjacent road seconds before a train came along that road

 

[Tomnick]

...which is exactly why every such incident, no matter how minor, warrants a thorough investigation a d suitable action to follow it up.

 

[TDK]

Can I ask a question of all TOC train crew on here-

When you are catching a train as a normal passenger do you find yourself inadvertantly checking the signal before you get on the train, yes or no!

No, there is no reason to because the aspect may change if it is red. I just get on.
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It comes from working in an environment for a long period. It's automatic.

Not for me it isn't I don't check the signal when a passenger I have no need to!