Bus safety

[Temple Meads]

Urban stage carriage work is also undoubtedly more stressful than taking a load of OAP's on an afternoon drive!

I've been on a fair few urban services where it appears to be primarily the latter

Seriously though, the passengers are generally less desirable, and the driving conditions highly pressurized with most bus driving.

 

[notadriver]

I'm not entirely convinced by that

Technically of course, they both require the same skills to pass their tests, but on a daily basis an urban bus driver can face some pretty challenging road conditions, mostly caused by poor driving or bad traffic management. Urban stage carriage work is also undoubtedly more stressful than taking a load of OAP's on an afternoon drive! Though a coach driver engaged on foreign touring work would obviously need some additional talents.

I was always told that coach drivers got less due to the tips, but I'd guess they can be few and far between these days?!

Tips depend on the people. Oaps give tips and leave the coach clean. Screaming school kids and their teachers don't. I don't doubt the stress levels involved for bus driving. After all I did it myself for 6 years before I did coach driving. But driving a longer, more powerful faster vehicle on unfamiliar country roads can be quite daunting. I applied and was rejected from the position many time due to either being under 25 (at the time) or lack of experience. I guess they didnt want damage to their expensive coaches.

 

[34D]

It sounds like he has a very difficult job. But if it's true he's shouting at a child who was not involved in the disturbance to the extent he's made the child cry then that is unacceptable.

Also, it may seem harsh, but it's the bus driver's responsibility not to take out a defective bus. Some bus companies will dismiss a driver for taking out a defective bus.

And some will dismiss a driver who doesn't.

I rarely do school buses, howver you'll be surprised how bad behaviour soon stops on an afternoon when I pull over and switch the engine off.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tips depend on the people. Oaps give tips and leave the coach clean. Screaming school kids and their teachers don't. I don't doubt the stress levels involved for bus driving. After all I did it myself for 6 years before I did coach driving. But driving a longer, more powerful faster vehicle on unfamiliar country roads can be quite daunting. I applied and was rejected from the position many time due to either being under 25 (at the time) or lack of experience. I guess they didnt want damage to their expensive coaches.

I've done both, but probably prefer stage carriage (though I do drive in a very nice part of the country, and most days get presents from passengers ranging from chocolate bars to a bottle of single malt).

Rail replacement is another favourite, as are private hires to decent places with several hours at the destination (when it is a destination I wish to visit).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The periscope to see upstairs has been taken off or broken so he couldn't have seen anyway.

If you are 100% sure and if there is no replacement CCTV monitor, then this is a 'defect'.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Driving a bus can be very stressful. But why are the wages still so low ? Only recently a company was advertising for coach drivers and offering 7.50 an hour.

requirement for a group 2 licence is a relatively low hurdle - also a combination of past DWP practices ( flt , HGV and PCV licence courses as part of job club) plus accession state EU nationals ...

 

[34D]

requirement for a group 2 licence is a relatively low hurdle - also a combination of past DWP practices ( flt , HGV and PCV licence courses as part of job club) plus accession state EU nationals ...

Vocational Licences to jobseekers finished a while ago didn't it? When I've looked into it (as a manager, needing to recruit) I've been advised by the local job centre that there's nothing.

I consider the £1,500 (ish) to do a bus or truck test as a high bar to entry, to be honest.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

<snip>

I was always told that coach drivers got less due to the tips, but I'd guess they can be few and far between these days?!

how many (adults) coach trips don't have the pint pot go round even if it does just end up full of shrapnel ... ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Vocational Licences to jobseekers finished a while ago didn't it? When I've looked into it (as a manager, needing to recruit) I've been advised by the local job centre that there's nothing.

I consider the £1,500 (ish) to do a bus or truck test as a high bar to entry, to be honest.

there is however the pool of those who did get licences via the DWP - i did note it;s PAST practices- and I doubt it costs 1500 gbp in an accession state - plus of course with National Service lasting longer elsewhere in the EU ( not just accession states) how many people got licences as part of that ...

on the bus side there are plenty of operators who do take on people without D or with D1 (101) and train them for D

we'll quietly ignore those employers who want 'purple squirrels' for C1 work and keep advertising despite the applications from squirrels of other hues or other purple rodents ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Vocational Licences to jobseekers finished a while ago didn't it? When I've looked into it (as a manager, needing to recruit) I've been advised by the local job centre that there's nothing.

I consider the £1,500 (ish) to do a bus or truck test as a high bar to entry, to be honest.

but is it a high bar compared to 27k , three years and level 3 qualifications before embarking ?

 

[richw]

on the bus side there are plenty of operators who do take on people without D or with D1 (101) and train them for D

First are always advertising for trainee drivers round here at £7.00 an hour! No wonder they cant attract ready qualified drivers!

 

[notadriver]

how many (adults) coach trips don't have the pint pot go round even if it does just end up full of shrapnel ... ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


there is however the pool of those who did get licences via the DWP - i did note it;s PAST practices- and I doubt it costs 1500 gbp in an accession state - plus of course with National Service lasting longer elsewhere in the EU ( not just accession states) how many people got licences as part of that ...

on the bus side there are plenty of operators who do take on people without D or with D1 (101) and train them for D

we'll quietly ignore those employers who want 'purple squirrels' for C1 work and keep advertising despite the applications from squirrels of other hues or other purple rodents ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


but is it a high bar compared to 27k , three years and level 3 qualifications before embarking ?

And yet trainee train drivers are employed with a far higher rate of pay than qualified bus drivers.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

First are always advertising for trainee drivers round here at £7.00 an hour! No wonder they cant attract ready qualified drivers!

surely that reflects the model of operation in PCV work where people are generally trained by service operators or the military ... rather than self funders for cat C

 

[notadriver]

HGV work can also pay just as poorly. The median pay for HGV drivers is only slightly higher than for PCV drivers.

 

[BestWestern]

First are always advertising for trainee drivers round here at £7.00 an hour! No wonder they cant attract ready qualified drivers!

I've observed First vehicles running around Bristol with stickers in the rear windows excitedly informing potential employees that they could earn £18,000 plus driving said vehicles!! :roll: As if somehow that is some sort of incentive, more of an insult really.

The sad reality is that bus operators are quite happy to have demoralised drivers earning peanuts for doing a stressful job, and an appallingly high staff turnover, because it keeps their costs down. They have constant driving school operations running full time, so once the cost of that is absorbed into the main business they can focus on how much they save by not having too many people subscribe to the company pension schemes and other staff 'benefits', and by paying everybody as little as possible. When you get fed up and leave the next guy is already doing his PCV test, simples. Who cares about professionalism or staff morale when you can run the show for shirt buttons?! Most of the passengers have no choice so they'll keep coming regardless of how poor their customer experience might be, so it really doesn't matter an awful lot. My recollection was that most of the 'staff development' that went on where I used to work was aimed squarely at reducing accidents and expensive insurance claims, there was little interest shown in anything else.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I've observed First vehicles running around Bristol with stickers in the rear windows excitedly informing potential employees that they could earn £18,000 plus driving said vehicles!! :roll: As if somehow that is some sort of incentive, more of an insult really.

.

40 hour week * 52 weeks = 2080 hours

2080*6.19 =12875.20

at least 5 and a bit thousand pounds over the minimum wage for a role whose only requirements *on entry* are a cat B licence...

a substantial increase for someone on the minimum wage especially if they are also on a 'zero hours but you'll work around full time hours ' contract ...

assuming a 40 hour week 18k is 8.65/ hour

 

[plannerman]

On the subject of school bus discipline, that bus does sound like a nightmare turn for the driver.
Back in the day, my school bus was owned and driven by an ex-Sargeant Major. He wasn't afraid to switch off the engine, walk back and give it 'SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP' at full parade ground volume. It used to scare the living daylights out of us, and believe me we sat down and shut up. Of course now there's probably some 'uman rights reason they can't do that

 

[quarella]

When I drove school buses twenty years ago my methods if the little darlings started messing around started with a shouted "Sit Down" while driving then switching the radio off or changing it from Radio 1 to Radio 3 or 4. Pulling over to the side of the road and switching off. I got quite good at "It's your own time you are wasting." 3 times in one hour long journey was the most. Another driver in the firm once took a coachload straight back to school due to their behaviour. This thread started about driving with doors open. If the weather was good then I never shut the doors. No aircon, just 3 skylights. First hot day with doors open. Kids started messing around. I shut them. By the third day they were self policing.

 

[SWTH]

40 hour week * 52 weeks = 2080 hours

2080*6.19 =12875.20

at least 5 and a bit thousand pounds over the minimum wage for a role whose only requirements *on entry* are a cat B licence...

a substantial increase for someone on the minimum wage especially if they are also on a 'zero hours but you'll work around full time hours ' contract ...

assuming a 40 hour week 18k is 8.65/ hour

At the risk of going well off topic, since this is primarily a railway forum, lets do some more comparisons:

Bus driver (I'll use my job as an example):
Wage: £8.10p/h, no minimum contracted hours. (£8.10p/h x 40 = 324 x 52 = £16,848p/a).
Hours: 40-70hrs per week spread from Monday - Sunday, GB domestic driving rules apply so theoretically could work 365 days a year (The 13 day followed by 24hr break rule is easily circumvented by booking off at say, 1400 on the 13th day and booking on at 1401 the next day).
Holiday: 28 days including bank holidays.
Sick pay: Statutory sick pay only.
Pension: No company pension.
Responsibilities and role: To ensure the safety of passengers, the safety of the vehicle, to drive safely and with regard for others. Also responsible for keeping to allocated schedules, ticket sales, revenue protection, giving timetable information, vehicle cleanliness, cash handling, vehicle defect reporting, and being able to provide and direct assistance in emergency situations. Must also work within and have good knowledge of VOSA rules and regulations for safe operation of PSV's and within the appropriate working time regulations as specified by VOSA.
Safety Critical Post: Yes

Train driver (Information taken from job description of currently available position for qualified driver with London Midland):
Wage: £42,620, 35hrs a week (£42,620 / 52 = £819.62 p/w, /35 = £23.42 p/h)
Hours: 35hrs p/w contracted, Monday to Saturday. Sunday shifts as agreed.
Holiday: Does not state, presume to be 28 days including bank holidays as a minimum.
Sick pay: Does not state, though would expect to be full sick pay for six months as a minimum in line with other TOC's.
Pension: London Midland's contributory final salary pension scheme.
Responsibilities and role (taken directly from LM job description): Responsible for safe and timely operation of allocated vehicle, able to make decisions based on Rules and Regulations guidance, ensure compliance with all safety responsibilities as detailed in the Working Instructions for Safety Critical Work – Drivers (CO/DS3604). Run trains to timetable where possible, complete all rostered hours of duty, work to avoid incidents and accidents whilst on duty, work within Rules and Regulations and safety critical standards.
Safety Critical Post: Yes.

Now, i'm not about to argue that a bus driver is worth £43k p/a. However, given the safety implications of both roles, is a bus driver really worth just £17k? Thats £26k less, and without all the benefits that rail industry staff expect as standard. In fact, you can also throw the guard/conductors salary into the difference (a further £29k) as a bus driver is also responsible for dealing with the public, including whilst the vehicle is in motion. Not a bad deal for a bus operator there: £72k p/a for a crew of two on the railway, versus a bus driver doing both jobs for just £17k!

I will agree that unfortunately, because of the ease with which a category 'D' licence can be obtained, there are several bus drivers who really shouldn't be on the road. Many companies will say how their recruitment process is stringent and focuses on selecting the best candidates for the role, but frankly the bus industry doesn't care provided the bus goes out on time. CPC training as others have said is a joke - you can take the same 7 hour course 5 times to make your required 35 hours of training! Apart from one module that is out on the road, the others really are death by powerpoint, with the result that nobody learns, and nobody cares, apart from the training companies that are making serious cash for having done very little (16 drivers on average for a one day course at £100 each = £1600 for just showing them a slide show).

Smaller companies do tend to care more, mainly because the cost of hiring more staff is still significant enough to make them care a little more. However smaller companies usually pay less, because they're usually doing the work that the big companies ignore due to the profit margins being too small.

Safety is however the big issue - if the bus industry paid half as much attention to safety as the rail industry does, then things would be much better for everyone. Oh sure, VOSA do spot checks here and there, and the occasional depot inspection if they suspect the operator to be in breach of the rules, but really, safety is an issue very rarely discussed at any of the employers (including two of the big four) I have worked for. I have known drivers being called 'militant' for refusing to drive buses with faults that would be classed as Instant Prohibition (PG9) by VOSA, and supervisors who try to make it sound like the driver is at fault for refusing a bus with a safety critical defect. It sounds strange in some ways, but the railway I volunteer at is far more safety conscious than any bus operator i've known.

Another problem is that bus driving just isn't a career - there's no progression, no targets, nothing to work towards. Chances are if you pass your PSV at 18, and stick it out through your working life, you'll still be in exactly the same role at 65, 47 years later. Occasionally a supervisor role might come available, but these are few and far between. The bus industry is also rife with examples of jobs like that being given to those who are 'in' with the management, rather than for the candidate's ability to actually do the job.

Coach driving versus bus driving? In reality, very little difference. The main advantage to coach driving is that passengers generally want to be there, whereas using a service bus is regarded as a necessary evil of the day. Many companies allocate a driver their own vehicle too, which is great because you can take pride in keeping that vehicle spotless, knowing that there is little chance of other drivers ruining it (partly because they probably won't drive it, partly because should they need to, they'll treat it like their own). However, the pay is lower, and in summer months work can almost completely dry up - the last coach operator I worked for gave just 5hrs a week work to the drivers during July/August. Tips? Not enough to cover the wage difference and the hours difference, which is even bigger because of the need to work to EC/Tachograph regulations rather than the much less restrictive GB domestic rules.

I drive buses at the moment, but I desperately want to work in the rail industry - not just for the pay and conditions, but because it's what i've always wanted to do. Sadly, I feel that the general perception of the bus industry (not helped by the blunt reality) is very much a hinderance to my CV.

 

[notadriver]

Hi SWTH
Good luck joining the railway. I'm sure you will get on very soon. But I will disagree with some of the points you raise.

I think being a bus driver will help you to get on the railway. It shows you can do shift work and are familiar with working in a safety critical environment.

Whilst I'm probably being biased as a coach driver my coach driving colleagues would say its different to bus work due to the vehicles, destinations and additional responsibilities a coach driver has over a bus driver.

As for the trains, the 35 hours includes all breaks and non driving time so in reality a train driver may only drive for 25 out of the 35 hours and only for 4 days a week rather than the 5 days a bus driver works.

Unfortunately it is dead easy to get the PCV licence. Training takes a few weeks, and only a very basic standard of English is needed - hence lots of Polish bus drivers in London.

 

[SWTH]

It's the age old debate between coach and bus drivers, having done both I'd say both are as hard/easy as the other, for their respective reasons. I only drive buses because I can't afford to drop to coach driver wages (down here in Cornwall the local firms pay between £6.25-£7.00 p/h). I do find coach work easier, and more enjoyable however.

 

[notadriver]

It's the age old debate between coach and bus drivers, having done both I'd say both are as hard/easy as the other, for their respective reasons. I only drive buses because I can't afford to drop to coach driver wages (down here in Cornwall the local firms pay between £6.25-£7.00 p/h). I do find coach work easier, and more enjoyable however.

Back in 1998 I was interviewed for the position of coach driver within the bus company I worked for. I was told it was a prestigious position and considered a step up from being a bus driver. I failed the interview due to my lack of experience and I'm told even now in London many coach companies won't touch London bus drivers!

At my local coach company I'm the subject of ridicule as my operations manager and (some) of the coach drivers tell me how easy my main job is as I don't have to steer and it's just pushing buttons.

 

[quarella]

The old adage was "You can make a coach driver drive buses but he won't be happy, but you can never make a bus driver a coach driver."

I drove for a small independent operator so did all types of work, and enjoyed the variety. No pay differential there though in other firms depending who you spoke to bus drivers were on a higher hourly rate for handling cash, alternatively coach drivers could make up their pay with tips. Possibly they could many years ago but not by 1990. I considered myself a coach driver but I knew I was not cut out for doing tour work. Still wouldn't want to do it.

 

[BestWestern]

40 hour week * 52 weeks = 2080 hours

2080*6.19 =12875.20

at least 5 and a bit thousand pounds over the minimum wage for a role whose only requirements *on entry* are a cat B licence...

a substantial increase for someone on the minimum wage especially if they are also on a 'zero hours but you'll work around full time hours ' contract ...

assuming a 40 hour week 18k is 8.65/ hour

SWTH has already responded superbly, but I would add that a bus driver should not consider himself fortunate to be to earning a whole 5k or so above the minimum wage. The job may not be rocket science, but it certainly deserves a fair wage, and that is not a fair wage.

 

[34D]

Just to agree wholeheartedly with the excellent post by [swth] at the bottom of page 7.

I've driven diesel locos, DMUS, buses, coaches and consider them all a challenge to drive well.

If deregulation hadn't have happened, it would be interesting to see where bus driver pay lay in the present day.

 

[notadriver]

Just to agree wholeheartedly with the excellent post by [swth] at the bottom of page 7.

I've driven diesel locos, DMUS, buses, coaches and consider them all a challenge to drive well.

If deregulation hadn't have happened, it would be interesting to see where bus driver pay lay in the present day.

You've driven diesel locos and DMUs as a qualified driver on the mainline or on a heritage line under supervision at a 25 mph maximum? They are completely different things.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

SWTH has already responded superbly, but I would add that a bus driver should not consider himself fortunate to be to earning a whole 5k or so above the minimum wage. The job may not be rocket science, but it certainly deserves a fair wage, and that is not a fair wage.

define a fair wage ...

Given that many frontline A+E ambulance staff are now on less than this (ECA/ ECSW) and their role ( depsite the wailing and stories from the union or the ignorant) is fully and fairly evaluated ...

be interesting to put a variety of transport jobs through the Agenda for Change job evaluation scoring system - given it was designed to evaluate every job in the NHS apart from Doctors and Dentists and the la-la land of board level...

 

[Antman]

It's the age old debate between coach and bus drivers, having done both I'd say both are as hard/easy as the other, for their respective reasons. I only drive buses because I can't afford to drop to coach driver wages (down here in Cornwall the local firms pay between £6.25-£7.00 p/h). I do find coach work easier, and more enjoyable however.

Which sounds poor compared to London area but I guess the cost of living is much cheaper down there?

 

[SWTH]

Which sounds poor compared to London area but I guess the cost of living is much cheaper down there?

No, Cornwall is not a cheap place to live. Not London-expensive, but certainly not cheap. If you want to live anywhere half-decent (suburbs of Truro for example) figure on £180k upwards for a 3-bed cardboard cutout Barrattesque semi. The same house in a similar area of Shrewsbury in Shropshire, for example, would be around £140k.