Lost Railcard: Forced to buy replacement return ticket

[PatrickO]

Last Wednesday my son travelled from Norwich to Glastonbury via London. He's just 18 and has a Railcard.

When the ticket inspector came to check tickets on the Norwich-London train my son realised he had left his wallet with railcard at home. The ticket inspector advised him to report to the ticket office and get a new railcard.

He went to the ticket office at Liverpool St , but met a total blank wall from the staff who would not even discuss the problem with him.

At Glastonbury the ticket inspector confiscated his original return tickets and refused to give a receipt. The inspector gave my son a full fare return ticket even though my son said he did not want it. He explained that he wanted to use his original ticket to get home as we would be able to send his railcard to him.

We are now expecting to get a bill for a full fare open return ticket.

I would appreciate advice on what is the best way to handle this.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[GadgetMan]

When the ticket inspector came to check tickets on the Norwich-London train my son realised he had left his wallet with railcard at home. The ticket inspector advised him to report to the ticket office and get a new railcard.

I think the Guard was suggesting your son go to the ticket office and BUY a new railcard, I'm guessing a New Railcard is cheaper than a new full price ticket.

The Guard had been quite lenient as your son should have been charged for a new ticket on board.

He went to the ticket office at Liverpool St , but met a total blank wall from the staff who would not even discuss the problem with him.

I don't see what there was to discuss, your son was instructed to buy a new railcard. Pretty straightforward transaction for a ticket office. Perhaps your son misunderstood the Guard?

At Glastonbury the ticket inspector confiscated his original return tickets and refused to give a receipt. The inspector gave my son a full fare return ticket even though my son said he did not want it. He explained that he wanted to use his original ticket to get home as we would be able to send his railcard to him.

We are now expecting to get a bill for a full fare open return ticket.

I would appreciate advice on what is the best way to handle this.

Many thanks in advance.

The Inspector at Glastonbury was correct to give your son a new ticket for his journey. I'm assuming he has not been charged for this ticket yet? If that is the case then the replacement ticket is also his receipt.

The Inspector has one of two choices;


-The outward portion should have been marked as void/invalid and ticket returned along with being charged for a New ticket. The Return may have been £1 more than a Single in which case it's good practice to buy the Return to avoid hassle/expense on the return leg.

-Complete Return ticket withdrawn with a Zero Fare replacement (receipt) issued to allow him to return in exchange for his personal details so the TOC could investigate the Travel Irregularity. This could lead to a prosecution.

I'm guessing the Inspector went for the second option and has reported him for traveling without a Valid ticket.

The TOC will contact your son in the near future and give you an opportunity to put your version of events forward.

However it will not look good that your son did not take the opportunity given to him at Liverpool Street to sort the issue out. He should not have continued traveling without a valid ticket.

 

[island]

How were you proposing to send the railcard to your son, assuming he was attending the recent music festival?

Why did he not try to regularise the matter at Paddington?

Was he issued with any sort of documentation, such as an Unpaid Fare Notice?

 

[Greenback]

I think there may have been a bit of a misunderstanding here. Did your son think that he may have been entitled to a free replacement railcard in order to carry on with his journey? Unfortunately, there is no national database of railcards, and, unlike season tickets, there is no leniency when a raildcard is not carried.

The first guard could have excessed your son up to a full fare return at the point. Instead, they showed discretion and allowed your son an opportunity to buy a new railcard, which would almost certianly have cost less than the excess fare.

You might try to appeal to the better nature of the TOC when you are contacted, but I don't hold out a great deal of hope with that approach if I am honest. Sadly, Glastonbury does see an awful lot people 'trying it on', which is why Revenue Protection always take a great interest in the event. Sorry if this isn't the advice you were looking for, but it would not be right to raise your hopes unrealistically.

 

[transmanche]

How were you proposing to send the railcard to your son, assuming he was attending the recent music festival?

Post Restante to the nearest Post Office?

 

[221129]

Last Wednesday my son travelled from Norwich to Glastonbury via London. He's just 18 and has a Railcard.

When the ticket inspector came to check tickets on the Norwich-London train my son realised he had left his wallet with railcard at home. The ticket inspector advised him to report to the ticket office and get a new railcard.

He went to the ticket office at Liverpool St , but met a total blank wall from the staff who would not even discuss the problem with him.

At Glastonbury the ticket inspector confiscated his original return tickets and refused to give a receipt. The inspector gave my son a full fare return ticket even though my son said he did not want it. He explained that he wanted to use his original ticket to get home as we would be able to send his railcard to him.

We are now expecting to get a bill for a full fare open return ticket.

I would appreciate advice on what is the best way to handle this.

Many thanks in advance.

Did your son get a form in the UPFN format or was he put under caution? I do know several MG11s were issued along with PFs and a couple of TIRs but no mention of any UPFNs....

 

[sheff1]

Did your son get a form in the UPFN format or was he put under caution? I do know several MG11s were issued along with PFs and a couple of TIRs but no mention of any UPFNs....

How is someone unfamiliar with the process going to understand any of this ? If you have questions to ask, it would be better to use plain English.
>>>>>

My question is what ticket(s) did your son have, ie. what was printed on the ticket(s) under
Ticket Type
From & To
Price.

If you do not know, then any info about the actual rail journey being made would be helpful (there is no station at Glastonbury)

 

[bb21]

I must be a bit slow here but AFAIK Glastonbury doesn't have a station.

 

[Flamingo]

I must be a bit slow here but AFAIK Glastonbury doesn't have a station.

Castle Cary was where the great unwashed were going to/from.

At a guess, the OP's son was sold a return as it was cheaper than two singles...

Just checked, £105.40 single, £106.40 return, Norwich-Castle Cary off-peak, so the RPI was doing your son a favour if this is what was sold, and was selling him the most appropriate ticket (regardless of the son's arguement).

Sounds to me that the OP's son would not listen to good advice, either about buying another YP railcard, or buying the most appropriate ticket...

 

[island]

It's £269.40 for an Anytime return, and in theory at least not showing a Railcard means one should be charged the Anytime fare.

I note a reference to receiving a bill also. Normally an arrangement to pay the fare later (an Unpaid Fares Notice) is issued for Anytime Single fares only.

 

[sheff1]

Yes I thought Castle Cary might be the station. Lets wait and see what the OP comes back with.

 

[PatrickO]

Yes I think the station for Glastonbury is Castle Cary.

My son wanted to buy a replacement railcard at Liverpool St but staff kept saying there's nothing they can do. He asked them what he should do but they didn't want to know.

No money was taken for the ticket given to him at Castle Cary so I guess we are going to get some sort of bill in the post.

We were going to send the railcard to him with a friend who went to the festival on Friday. But obviously no use as his original ticket had been confiscated. (Why wouldn't they give a receipt?)



Tried to post this once before but didn't accept so hope it isn't a double post.

 

[sheff1]

My son wanted to buy a replacement railcard at Liverpool St but staff kept saying there's nothing they can do. He asked them what he should do but they didn't want to know.

If he had one of his birth certificate/passport/UK driving licence/National ID card with him there is no reason why they couldn't sell him a new railcard once he had obtained a passport type photo from a booth (I assume there is one at Liverpool St). If he had none of those things then the staff were right to say they couldn't issue a railcard.

 

[PatrickO]

Thanks to all who replied. We will have to wait and see what we get in the post. I think we are going to end up with a massive bill because a young lad who is not used to train travel made a mistake.

The staff he spoke to seemed to go out of their way to be unhelpful. I realise being a railway worker must be difficult and stressful at times, but blanking someone who is asking for advice seems mean.

I've read through a few other threads on here and it makes me glad that I rarely use trains. It seems that small errors can cost a passenger very dear in ways that would be unacceptable in other services. My feeling is that a big part of the problem is the minefield of different fares.

 

[island]

Did your son get any paperwork at all from the inspectors? What sort of document/ticket did he get and use to travel back to Norwich? Can you tell us what it says on it?

 

[PatrickO]

If he had one of his birth certificate/passport/UK driving licence/National ID card with him there is no reason why they couldn't sell him a new railcard once he had obtained a passport type photo from a booth (I assume there is one at Liverpool St). If he had none of those things then the staff were right to say they couldn't issue a railcard.

The staff at Liverpool St didn't ask what ID he had. They didn't even want to discuss it. I guess they were too busy. Not enough staff?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did your son get any paperwork at all from the inspectors? What sort of document/ticket did he get and use to travel back to Norwich? Can you tell us what it says on it?

The only paperwork the inspector at Castle Cary gave him was a full fare return ticket from Norwich to Castle Cary which he used to get home. (His original ticket was confiscated). I don't have the ticket with me at the moment so can't say exactly what type.

 

[transmanche]

The staff at Liverpool St didn't ask what ID he had. They didn't even want to discuss it.

But it all depends on what he said to them. Did he say he'd lost his railcard and ask what do I do with the tickets? Or did he just ask to buy a railcard?

Because if he just asked to buy a railcard, I really can't imagine they would not sell one (providing he had the appropriate ID).

 

[221129]

Was he spoken to at Castle Cary under Caution at all?

 

[island]

This all seems rather strange. But I agree the best thing seems to be to wait and see what comes in the post, and let us know so we can advise on the next steps.

 

[MikeWh]

I must be a bit slow here but AFAIK Glastonbury doesn't have a station.

It doesn't, but as someone who travelled through Paddington on Thursday last week I can attest to the fact that the departure boards were advertising trains going to exactly that - Glastonbury. You were directed to a holding area near platform 12 (IIRC) and then from there you would be told the platform number of the actual train. I guess this was to enforce a rigid first come, first travel policy.

 

[PatrickO]

Was he spoken to at Castle Cary under Caution at all?

He was asked to sign to sign a statement which he refused to do as he wasn't sure what he was signing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This all seems rather strange. But I agree the best thing seems to be to wait and see what comes in the post, and let us know so we can advise on the next steps.

Yes I think you are right. But many thanks for all the advice. It has certainly opened my eyes to a whole world of complication I never knew about lol

 

[sheff1]

The staff at Liverpool St didn't ask what ID he had. They didn't even want to discuss it. I guess they were too busy. Not enough staff?

The normal procedure, which must happen almost daily at somewhere like Liverpool St:

1) Someone approaches ticket office and asks to purchase a railcard.

2) Clerk asks if they have got relevant ID and photo.

3) If no, customer told to return when they have. If yes, application form completed and railcard issued.

If your son did 1), as he was apparently advised to do by the inspector on the first train, then I find it difficult to believe that any clerk would do anything other than 2).

 

[island]

It doesn't, but as someone who travelled through Paddington on Thursday last week I can attest to the fact that the departure boards were advertising trains going to exactly that - Glastonbury. You were directed to a holding area near platform 12 (IIRC) and then from there you would be told the platform number of the actual train. I guess this was to enforce a rigid first come, first travel policy.

What about Advances?

 

[221129]

What about Advances?

Restrictions were loosened in that you could travel later if you couldn't get on your booked train but not earlier.

 

[bb21]

My son wanted to buy a replacement railcard at Liverpool St but staff kept saying there's nothing they can do. He asked them what he should do but they didn't want to know.

If he had all the necessary documentation with him to allow him to purchase a new Railcard, I really can't think of a reason why they might refuse.

Perhaps there was some misunderstanding? Did your son maybe misunderstood the RPI's suggestions and ask for a free replacement? Then even so if they really "didn't want to know" then I think they could have been more helpful. It is a quite common scenario where people forget their Railcards and buying a new one, if cheaper than a replacement ticket, is a fairly standard practice.

No money was taken for the ticket given to him at Castle Cary so I guess we are going to get some sort of bill in the post.

I would imagine it to be the case.

The only paperwork the inspector at Castle Cary gave him was a full fare return ticket from Norwich to Castle Cary which he used to get home. (His original ticket was confiscated). I don't have the ticket with me at the moment so can't say exactly what type.

Does the replacement ticket have a price printed on it? It sounds odd because they should be zero-priced in these circumstances but I guess it is easily done.

He doesn't have to be given a receipt for the withdrawn ticket. The procedure is that the passenger is issued a zero-fare replacement ticket to enable him to complete the journey. The withdrawn ticket is then sent in with a report for irregular travel for further investigation. The replacement ticket is not even required if the passenger had already reached the end of his journey. As your son was issued with a replacement ticket (price differences aside) I think there is no major issue here.

I would imagine that you will be billed for the full cost of an Anytime Return for £269.40, but stranger things have happened. They might make an exception if this is his first time and you send in proof of his Railcard which he left at home, however they are not obliged to do so.

 

[221129]

He was asked to sign to sign a statement which he refused to do as he wasn't sure what he was signing.

Do you know if we was read the Caution along the lines of;

You do not have to say anything but anything you do say may be used as evidence.

 

[island]

As your son was issued with a replacement ticket (price differences aside) I think there is no major issue here.

I would imagine that you will be billed for the full cost of an Anytime Return for £269.40

That could be a major enough issue for some people!

 

[455driver]

The staff he spoke to seemed to go out of their way to be unhelpful.

So every member of staff was unhelpful or maybe your son wouldnt listen or couldnt/wouldnt understand what he was being told!

You have posted that he refused to sign the RPIs/guards notebook so it makes me wonder what else he refused?

 

[bb21]

That could be a major enough issue for some people!

I was referring to the fact that there is nothing wrong I can see procedurally.

I quite agree that the price of an Anytime Return would present a big problem for many.

 

[PatrickO]

Once again, many thanks for all advice. Will await enormous bill in post :cry:

The rather ironic thing is that the Young Person's Railcard was bought specifically for this journey. He has never actually used it.