Lost Railcard: Forced to buy replacement return ticket

[RPI]

1. An extremely complicated system of fares which even rail staff struggle to understand at times.

2. Rail travel has a completely different legal standing than any other service. For example, the other day my me and my partner had coffee and cafe in a cafe. At the end we strolled out happily saying how nice the cake was. We were a 100 yards down the road before we realised we had not paid. We went back and paid and all was well. If that had been a rail journey we could have ended up with a huge fine and even criminal convictions. There seems no way for honest passengers to easily correct an honest mistake.

Just my 2p worth

1) I agree in principle but carrying a railcard is not in any way complicated.

2) Yes you were honest and did the right thing, however it's a sad fact that 99% of the population would have continued walking bragging about getting a freebie, just like the vast majority of people who make "honest" mistakes on the railway.

The main offence dealt with at Castle Cary this year was short tickets from Bruton, Frome and Westbury where they all "genuinely forgot" that they had come from places such as Brighton, Birmingham and Plymouth.... funny how the fare from Bruton is about 20 times cheaper than the others.

 

[221129]

Slightly off topic but the Documentary following FGW was filming at Castle Cary Including an RPI MG11ing someone. This should show a better insight into what happens.

Sorry for the Off Topic Post Just thought it might be slightly relevant here.

 

[edwin_m]

Here a comparison with an airline doesn't work as you'd have your booking on file and losing your reference number or even boarding card wouldn't mean having to pay for an all-new flight,

Even though they know full well who is booked on the flight, how much do Ryanair charge for sins such as failing to bring a printed boarding pass?

 

[jon0844]

Ah, yes, I forgot about Ryanair...

However, I'd say that Ryanair is acting rather unfairly as they do have the information and know you paid and you can't be someone else (unless you share the exact same name). But, you agreed to their rules when you bought the ticket - so even then, if you don't like it, fly with someone else. Flying Ryanair is like playing a game, trying hard not to be caught out by their latest rule change or charge. Some people like that game, but I have long given up (although I did fly with them earlier this year and actually felt nervous!).

In the case of the railway, the railcard is necessary because nobody can know you have one if you don't present it - and therefore there's an EASY fraud to commit.

 

[jb]

Flying Ryanair is like playing a game, trying hard not to be caught out by their latest rule change or charge.

I don't want to drag this off-topic, but this is basically false.

Some people like that game, but I have long given up (although I did fly with them earlier this year and actually felt nervous!).

I find it a little hard to believe you're not over-egging this a bit. Or maybe you're a nervous flyer and it's flying in general rather than with Ryanair you're on about

 

[PatrickO]

Going even more off topic....but I too have sworn never to fly with Ryanair again. I'd rather pay a bit more not be treated like something you wipe off your shoe.

 

[jon0844]

Or maybe you're a nervous flyer and it's flying in general rather than with Ryanair you're on about

I've flown hundreds of times, so I think we can safely rule that one out. Fact is, I'll only fly Ryanair if I have to - and feel that when I fly Ryanair it's like a battle between me and Michael O'Leary. And he'll only let me 'win' so many times.

 

[6Gman]

Thanks to all who replied. We will have to wait and see what we get in the post. I think we are going to end up with a massive bill because a young lad who is not used to train travel made a mistake.

When one document is only valid with another document then forgetting one of those documents may well be called a mistake, but mistakes have consequences. Your son was using a discounted ticket, but could not provide the proof of entitlement to that ticket.

And, yes, other businesses can be just as harsh e.g. if he had left his Glastonbury ticket at home would they have let him in on trust?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think my points about the difficulty of the fair structure and legal penalties remains valid.

I would agree that the fares structure can be complicated, but not in this case!

Your son used a Railcard to buy a discounted fare. He then presented the ticket without the railcard.

Which makes it invalid.

So he has to buy a new, undiscounted ticket.

What's difficult or complicated about that?

 

[jon0844]

Agreed.

Out of all the complicated things in the railway industry, this isn't one of them. It's probably the easiest of all.

I now have my Network Railcard and know just how important it is to produce it when requested, and know the consequences of not having it. This means double checking that I have it before I buy a ticket (even if using a TVM where I'm not asked to show it).

So far I've never forgotten it, as I'm used to carrying my ticket wallet from all the years of commuting daily - but if I did, I'd be buying a full price ticket and kicking myself for MY error.

 

[Oswyntail]

1) I agree in principle but carrying a railcard is not in any way complicated.

Totally agree - but, there again, neither is maintaining a database of railcards issued so that a situation like this one could be easily dealt with. Come to think of it, the benefits for marketing would probably outweigh the cost.

2) Yes you were honest and did the right thing, however it's a sad fact that 99% of the population would have continued walking bragging about getting a freebie, just like the vast majority of people who make "honest" mistakes on the railway......

And there, in a nutshell, is a description of the worst aspect of travelling on the railways, the assumption that every passenger is a tad away from being a defrauding crook.

 

[jon0844]

We don't live in a time where you can simply trust people anymore. Sad, but true.

But I agree that a national database could work, where you can even bring up a photo to prove that someone owns a card and IS the person who owns it.

I am sure that will come, once staff are carrying devices that have a constant data connection - which will probably be the next generation of equipment issued to staff.

Anyway, the OPs son can still appeal to FGW and explain what has been said here, acknowledging the mistake made, and see what happens. If a lot of people were blagging it by claiming to have come from a nearer station, at least that can be ruled out by having produced tickets from Norwich! Customer services can certainly show discretion even if the staff on the ground can't.

 

[sheff1]

Your son used a Railcard to buy a discounted fare. He then presented the ticket without the railcard.

Which makes it invalid.

So he has to buy a new, undiscounted ticket.

Or he could have bought a new railcard, as advised by the first guard. It is still unclear what exactly happened at Liverpool St or (if the staff there really did refuse him) why he did not get a new railcard at Paddington.

 

[carriageline]

With all due respect, if he had no wallet, and presuming no ID, card, or cash, how was he going to pay for the railcard? Not knowing what Glastonbury is like, what about ID for getting drinks, or even ID for the travel card?

If he did have cash and card on him, that's the reason I leave mine in my wallet, because ill either forget it all, or nothing

Please note, I was just feeding my curiosity really, not interrogating anyone!

 

[jon0844]

It does seem like not having a wallet, as well as not having a railcard, would be a pretty major problem for going to Glastonbury.

EE had phone charging points, so keeping in contact would be possible, and I suppose mates could have loaned money - but it still seems odd that you wouldn't go back for something like a wallet.

It's quite lucky that the tickets weren't in the same wallet, or it could have been an even more serious problem.

 

[cjohnson]

With all due respect, if he had no wallet, and presuming no ID, card, or cash, how was he going to pay for the railcard? Not knowing what Glastonbury is like, what about ID for getting drinks, or even ID for the travel card?

If he did have cash and card on him, that's the reason I leave mine in my wallet, because ill either forget it all, or nothing

Please note, I was just feeding my curiosity really, not interrogating anyone!

Probably straying off topic a little; but it's generally recommended you don't take your whole wallet to Glastonbury; or any other festival. I just took driving licence, debit card and enough cash for the festival, and kept those on my person at all times. Then if your tent does get robbed or pocket picked you've not lost all your cards etc. You're not actually required to show ID to get in - the tickets have your photo on them. So I can see how one might easily leave a railcard kept in a wallet at home.

 

[Chapeltom]

I'm still fairly young, I'm 20 but I do the wise thing of treating my railcard wallet like a wallet. My driving licence, bank card, any relevant bank notes, University I.D card go in there, coins just go in my pocket, usually a zipped one. I cannot leave the house without it, as it has everything else in there usually! My railcard wallets still last 6-9 months despite being treated like wallets.

 

[jon0844]

I'd take my wallet but not necessarily everything I'd keep in a wallet, taking out a lot of cards.

Carry some spare cash elsewhere (socks?) or another card. I'd also consider taking a 'festival' phone that I could afford to lose.

Not that I go camping at festivals any more. I'm more a day visitor to things like V and would probably only do glamping now!

 

[Temple Meads]

I'm still fairly young, I'm 20 but I do the wise thing of treating my railcard wallet like a wallet. My driving licence, bank card, any relevant bank notes, University I.D card go in there, coins just go in my pocket, usually a zipped one. I cannot leave the house without it, as it has everything else in there usually! My railcard wallets still last 6-9 months despite being treated like wallets.

I'm 16 and also keep my ID, phone card, bank notes and railcard in my railcard wallet, if I'm going out of town I also do a mental check of the important things I need before I leave (money, keys, phone, camera, ticket wallet), I started doing this after forgetting those things on various occasions, and I haven't forgotten any of them since..

 

[PatrickO]

If ANYONE thinks rail fares are not too complicated, please put your hand up.

And a special prize for anyone who can work out how many different prices could have been charged for tickets from say Norwich to Glastonbury (Castle Cary for the pedants) over the last year.

I make this as a general point rather than specifically about this case.

 

[bb21]

I am sensing that this is likely to degenerate into arguments. This thread is locked for now.

@OP, when you receive further communication from First Great Western, please keep us updated, and this thread will be reopened if you need further help.

Of course railway ticketing is extremely complicated, however I think the point many people are making is that it is not a difficult concept to remember to carry one's proof of discount entitlement, Railcard in this case, once a ticket has been purchased, and this is the real sticking point in our case here. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes. There is no doubt about it. Whether the consequences are just or otherwise is a debate for another time. Right now the most important thing is to help you reach a satisfactory resolution with the railway company.

 

[PatrickO]

Can anyone advise where to look to find the full fare for a particular journey. I have a dispute with a rail company and need to know the full fare (single and return) from Norwich to Castle Cary.

I have tried looking on this forum and also googling, but it all seems to be discounted prices.

 

[brompton rail]

Can anyone advise where to look to find the full fare for a particular journey. I have a dispute with a rail company and need to know the full fare (single and return) from Norwich to Castle Cary.

I have tried looking on this forum and also googling, but it all seems to be discounted prices.

This is your answer ....
[URL="http://www.brfares.com/#home[/URL]

 

[Zoidberg]

This is your answer ....
[URL="http://www.brfares.com/#home[/URL]

Oops

http://www.brfares.com/#home

 

[PatrickO]

Oops

http://www.brfares.com/#home

Thank you very much zoidberg. I will look it up.

 

[Zoidberg]

Thank you very much zoidberg. I will look it up.

Oh, don't thank me - brompton rail provided the link in post two - a typo corrupted its presentation.

 

[PatrickO]

The fare the rail company want us to pay is £220.30 which doesn't appear on the list of fares
http://www.brfares.com/#fares?orig=CLC&dest=NRW&rlc=

I can't work out if £220.30 is a single or return.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, don't thank me - brompton rail provided the link in post two - a typo corrupted its presentation.

Thanks to both of you

 

[Zoidberg]

The fare the rail company want us to pay is £220.30 which doesn't appear on the list of fares
http://www.brfares.com/#fares?orig=CLC&dest=NRW&rlc=

I can't work out if £220.30 is a single or return.

I'm sorry, I cannot help with that - hopefully someone will come along who can help.

 

[island]

It is potentially the case that the amount they are requesting has increased to more than the fare that would have been due at the time, due to admin or late payment fees.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2. Rail travel has a completely different legal standing than any other service. For example, the other day my me and my partner had coffee and cafe in a cafe. At the end we strolled out happily saying how nice the cake was. We were a 100 yards down the road before we realised we had not paid. We went back and paid and all was well. If that had been a rail journey we could have ended up with a huge fine and even criminal convictions.

That is true, although had you been attempting to avoid payment you would have committed an offence under section 3 of the Theft Act 1978.

 

[ModernRailways]

An Anytime return fare for an Adult is £269.40.

I can't find any fares which are for £220.30, I've also attempted to split them at London and see just how much each part would cost if FGW are only wanting their funds back for that part of the journey.

Have you (or your son) still got the tickets? If so, could you try and post a picture of them?

Did the ticket include travel on London Underground? Did he hold an Advance, Off-Peak, or an Anytime ticket?

Also, how much was the original ticket? If that cost £49.10 then it appears they will just be excessing it up to the Full Anytime Adult Fare.

Also, you should pay it! Then ask questions, just in case you were thinking of waiting.

 

[PatrickO]

The situation now is that we have received at letter from FGW. After some preamble it says:

"I have reviewed your case and I am, on this occasion, prepared to offer a settlement of this matter upon payment £285.30 which equates to the outstanding fare owed of £220.30 , plus a contribution of £65 towards the costs incurred to date."

It goes on to say that we must pay within 10 days or we may be served with a Summons to appear in court.

Yes the original ticket was £49.10 plus the cost of a railcard

The ticket he was given at Castle Cary was £0.00