Lost Railcard: Forced to buy replacement return ticket

[Rich McLean]

It sounds like a UPFN was issued, and he probably will be billed for the full anytime return fare. However that said FGW are clamping down on travel irregularities and fare dodgers this summer, and in most cases won't be offering out of court settlements, just straight to prosecution if reported, so please be careful in future.

However I am sure in this case it will be a bill for the Anytime Return fare

 

[221129]

It wouldn't be a UPFN as he wasn't given any paper work.

 

[Rich McLean]

It wouldn't be a UPFN as he wasn't given any paper work.

Ahh, well he was offerd papwrwork, which he refused to sign. So if he was written up, and issued a replacement ticket and no paper work, its more likely a TIR or MG11.

However I hope this is resolved with a settlement in this instance, with regards to my previous post

 

[Class377]

So every member of staff was unhelpful or maybe your son wouldnt listen or couldnt/wouldnt understand what he was being told!

You have posted that he refused to sign the RPIs/guards notebook so it makes me wonder what else he refused?

Give it a rest, not every passenger spends their life abusing all rail staff. You're getting paranoid :roll:

 

[455driver]

Give it a rest, not every passenger spends their life abusing all rail staff. You're getting paranoid :roll:

I didnt say the passenger was abusive did I?
If I did can you please quote that post for me because I cant find it, I await your response.

What I did say was maybe his son was less than responsive to what he was being told, maybe its you that is paranoid!

In my experience FGW guards are more than lenient 99% of the time which is why I find the whole "The staff he spoke to seemed to go out of their way to be unhelpful" line very unlikely.

 

[Class377]

You pretty much stated that he wouldn't listen and wouldn't understand what he was being told. Seems to me that you're immediately placing the blame on the passenger, as per usual for you.

On the other hand, if he COULDN'T understand then perhaps the staff should have tried harder to explain it in terms that the ordinary person could understand? Certainly your attitude, and that of some other rail staff, seem to be that everyone should completely understand how everything works perfectly to even use the trains nowadays.

And perhaps he encountered the 1% then...I didn't know someone working on SWT would know 99% of FGW guards anyway.

 

[455driver]

I have family in the South West so am on their trains at least twice a month from Reading plus we do a lot of local runs as well, that is how. Would you like me to make a list of the trains I am on next time so I can prove it?

As for if he couldnt understand what was being said to him did he ask the staff to make it clearer or did he just say "okay" and walk off, the staff are not mind readers.

 

[PatrickO]

You pretty much stated that he wouldn't listen and wouldn't understand what he was being told. Seems to me that you're immediately placing the blame on the passenger, as per usual for you.

On the other hand, if he COULDN'T understand then perhaps the staff should have tried harder to explain it in terms that the ordinary person could understand? Certainly your attitude, and that of some other rail staff, seem to be that everyone should completely understand how everything works perfectly to even use the trains nowadays.

And perhaps he encountered the 1% then...I didn't know someone working on SWT would know 99% of FGW guards anyway.

I think you make a good point. I am not directling blame at any individual, but I feel it would be easy to end up with a lot of trouble, and even a criminal record for making a genuine mistake and not understanding all the rules and regulations. From reading other threads on here it seems that even professional rail workers have different opinions about the rules.

My son is a quiet, friendly 18 year old on his first independent long distance rail journey. He paid for a ticket. He then made as simple mistake (left his railcard at home). He sought advice from different staff during his journey. Now, at best we will end up with a huge bill, at worst he may be prosecuted for a criminal offence. Seems crazy to me.

 

[455driver]

Just wait and see what the letter says, normally the first letter will be asking for his version of events, they will then compare notes and decide which way to go.
If he explains about the forgotten railcard and his first long distance solo trip (but please keep it factual and concise) then FGW are normally quite reasonable.
They will have the notes from the train manager/RPI etc so as long as everything stacks up I dont think anything untoward will happen.

Just in case you suffer from the same sort of blinkered view as class377 does (by your posts you dont) please note I have never said your son was abusive to the staff just that he might have been confused by the situation and basically "switched off" to the problem (we all do it) which is why he is now in this situation, all is not lost, just wait for the letter and reply to it truthfully.

 

[bb21]

Now, at best we will end up with a huge bill, at worst he may be prosecuted for a criminal offence. Seems crazy to me.

Don't lose hope yet. The best that would happen is that the matter is dropped without further hassle once you explain what happened and produce the evidence.

I know some people on here hold the view that all train companies are out there to squeeze out every penny they can from the ordinary punters in whatever way they can. Perhaps some of them are, I don't know, but the truth is that many of them are actually quite reasonable in a lot of circumstances, and do actually listen. I am not saying that I can guarantee your son will be let off this time, as that depends on many variables, but if this is his first time, there is a realisable chance that it could happen.

The rules are actually not as bad in most circumstances. Carry any discount entitlement card with you at all times, and have a valid ticket at all times. This is no different to getting on a bus, or the ferry, or going to the cinema, etc. I know that reading this particular sub-forum could make it seem very scary for anyone unfamiliar with the system, but there really isn't much to it. Sometimes you can run into staff who are completely unreasonable, but they are most certainly a small minority, and if you do, we can almost certainly help you resolve these matters.

I keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

[PatrickO]

Just wait and see what the letter says, normally the first letter will be asking for his version of events, they will then compare notes and decide which way to go.
If he explains about the forgotten railcard and his first long distance solo trip (but please keep it factual and concise) then FGW are normally quite reasonable.
They will have the notes from the train manager/RPI etc so as long as everything stacks up I dont think anything untoward will happen.

Just in case you suffer from the same sort of blinkered view as class377 does (by your posts you dont) please note I have never said your son was abusive to the staff just that he might have been confused by the situation and basically "switched off" to the problem (we all do it) which is why he is now in this situation, all is not lost, just wait for the letter and reply to it truthfully.

Thanks for your advice 455. Obviously, I was not there and have only got my son's version of events. My guess is that the rail staff's lack of time and my son's lack of knowledge clashed to produce a poor result.

Please could you tell me what FGW is?

 

[bb21]

Please could you tell me what FGW is?

That would be First Great Western.

 

[PatrickO]

Thanks bb21

 

[RPI]

At Castle Cary this year people arriving with no railcards were sold a new Anytime ticket, only if they couldn't/wouldn't pay would anyone be reported via an MG11 which is what will have happened here, he would then have been issued with a "Zero fare" for the return journey. Was he interviewed under caution? As this is what was being done with people in such circumstances unless they were a little "worse for ware".

 

[jb]

I think you make a good point. I am not directling blame at any individual, but I feel it would be easy to end up with a lot of trouble, and even a criminal record for making a genuine mistake and not understanding all the rules and regulations. From reading other threads on here it seems that even professional rail workers have different opinions about the rules.

Without wanting to seem unkind, most of the different opinions here probably stem from the shaky and uncertain reports of the chain of events (which is entirely understandable). In my view all you need to know is in post #2.

My son is a quiet, friendly 18 year old on his first independent long distance rail journey. He paid for a ticket. He then made as simple mistake (left his railcard at home). He sought advice from different staff during his journey. Now, at best we will end up with a huge bill, at worst he may be prosecuted for a criminal offence. Seems crazy to me.

It isn't what you want to hear, but it sounds very much like every member of staff has acted entirely appropriately at all stages here.

 

[benk1342]

It isn't what you want to hear, but it sounds very much like every member of staff has acted entirely appropriately at all stages here.

Not necessarily. It remains to be clarified exactly what happened at Liverpool Street. If the OP's son genuinely approached the window with the required documentation and asked to buy a new railcard, and was blown off, that would be an example of staff not acting appropriately.

 

[Realfish]

Not necessarily. It remains to be clarified exactly what happened at Liverpool Street. If the OP's son genuinely approached the window with the required documentation and asked to buy a new railcard, and was blown off, that would be an example of staff not acting appropriately.

It happens.

A few years back I went with No 2 son to renew his expired YP (I had the pleasure of paying for it). At Lichfield City, he was refused as they were 'too busy' (it was well after the peak). The Lichfield TV ticket office was closed and locked up, so we had to drive across to Tamworth where he eventually got his Railcard.

 

[jon0844]

What happened at Liverpool Street does appear to be quite important here. Was it a case of asking for a 'free' replacement railcard for the one left at home, or them palming him off because they didn't want to issue one - when it was quite clearly needed there and then, not at a later date.

Otherwise, I think it's vital for people to realise the importance of carrying any card that is required for a discounted ticket. Without it, the ticket is worthless - and people need to realise (and I accept that for someone who is young and doesn't travel all that often, and might be using their very first railcard) that it means treating the railcard like cash, or treating it as being as important as carrying your wallet and mobile.

The problem is that so many people do 'try it on' by either not having a railcard (the same people that a couple of years before might have tried to buy child tickets) or having one that has expired, or people sharing railcards etc.

This does mean that it's not likely that RPIs will take your word for it and show leniency, which they are not obliged to do. However, in this case, it seems like leniency was shown early on - but things fell apart by not getting a new railcard (at his expense) to continue the journey.

 

[Ferret]

I would imagine that you will be billed for the full cost of an Anytime Return for £269.40...

Usual practice for railcard-related ticket irregularities is to give the customer a further opportunity to pay through the post after the event has taken place. I expect this to happen in this case - only if that opportunity is ignored would I expect this to result in prosecution. The likelihood is that they'll ask for the full fare SOR, there's an off chance they may go for the cheapest ticket that would've been valid for the journeys made.

 

[CC 72100]

Otherwise, I think it's vital for people to realise the importance of carrying any card that is required for a discounted ticket. Without it, the ticket is worthless - and people need to realise (and I accept that for someone who is young and doesn't travel all that often, and might be using their very first railcard) that it means treating the railcard like cash, or treating it as being as important as carrying your wallet and mobile.

I can wholeheartedly agree with that - mine is treated like my driving licence and debit card, in the sense that it stays in my wallet all the time so I've always got it on me, whether I set out knowing that I need it or not. As you say, I don't think people quite understand how important it is - without it, the tickets are effectively worthless. Tell them that and this may start to change, as I'm sure there are people who genuinely believe that they can just pay the difference.

 

[Flamingo]

Exactly what ticket (and how much did it cost?) was sold to the OP's son?

 

[island]

Exactly what ticket (and how much did it cost?) was sold to the OP's son?

It was mentioned above that no payment was taken.

 

[Flamingo]

It was mentioned above that no payment was taken.

Sorry, missed that

Sounds like RPI's post (#44) is the most relevant, then, as I'm guessing they are speaking from first-hand knowledge of how things were being handled.

 

[PatrickO]

It isn't what you want to hear, but it sounds very much like every member of staff has acted entirely appropriately at all stages here.

As I wasn't there it's hard for me say exactly who said what to who. But, from my son's description it may well be that staff acted strictly within the rules, regulation, by-laws etc. However, they certainly didn't act helpfully to someone who was trying to sort out a genuine mistake.

However, I feel that individual rail staff are not the main problem. I'm sure the most staff are doing doing their best and there are good, bad and middling staff as in all industries. The main problem for passengers is the system itself:

1. An extremely complicated system of fares which even rail staff struggle to understand at times.

2. Rail travel has a completely different legal standing than any other service. For example, the other day my me and my partner had coffee and cafe in a cafe. At the end we strolled out happily saying how nice the cake was. We were a 100 yards down the road before we realised we had not paid. We went back and paid and all was well. If that had been a rail journey we could have ended up with a huge fine and even criminal convictions. There seems no way for honest passengers to easily correct an honest mistake.

Just my 2p worth

 

[jon0844]

I can't disagree with the statement that there is a complicated system of fares, but only because we introduced cheap advance tickets and other discounts - and I expect that people want them (rather than having the choice of a peak or off-peak walk up ticket).

Although advanced tickets came about under BR, the idea of competition was always to have more choice - and that can become complicated. But, by comparison, airlines are far worse. I'm trying to claim some points on a flight I did a while back and discovered there are LOADS of different ticket classes (albeit grouped up into one economy class) and that influences the ticket price, and probably how many points I'll get.

The difference is that for the most part, customers don't see all of the different ticket prices when booking a flight - they just see prices going up as discounted tickets are 'used up'. On the railway, you often get to see all of the options in a long list, and have to wonder which one to pick (especially when there are different restrictions for them).

However, in the case of getting a discount for having a particular card, it's quite clear that no railcard = totally invalid ticket. Otherwise, I'd just buy a discounted ticket every time I travelled, and claim I forgot my card or just offer to pay the difference. Not all gatelines are programmed to stop discounted tickets, so for lines where there are no automatic onboard checks, everyone would have a go. But they won't if they can't just pay the difference or get let off.

That railcard is every bit as important as the ticket, and the two can't be separated. Your son has now learnt a valuable lesson, which is good given how many more years he can benefit from such discounts. Get him to put his railcard in his wallet, or always carry the railcard in a separate ticket wallet - on the basis that he never knows when he might want to use the train!

 

[PatrickO]

Your son has now learnt a valuable lesson, which is good given how many more years he can benefit from such discounts. Get him to put his railcard in his wallet, or always carry the railcard in a separate ticket wallet - on the basis that he never knows when he might want to use the train!

The main lesson we have learned is to drive rather than take the train

His railcard WAS in his wallet. He accidentally left his wallet at home. Easy mistake to make - I've done it myself. Normally it's an inconvenience - on the train it's a disaster.

I think my points about the difficulty of the fair structure and legal penalties remains valid.

 

[jon0844]

I think leaving your wallet at home when driving could leave you in a far more awkward position!

I think if I was off to a festival and forgot my wallet, I'd be going back home to pick it up. Surely the train ticket problem was the least of his worries?

I left my season ticket at home one day on the way to work. No time to go home and get it, so I had to buy a full-priced ticket and claim it back later. The rules allow me to do that once or twice per year (limited because of the ease at which I could just get refunds for tickets used by someone else, say a mate or the wife) but I'd have been happy even if I couldn't as it was MY fault. Yes, I'd kick myself and my wife would tell me I was an idiot and had just wasted £25, but I wouldn't be blaming the railway for not letting me on because I do have a ticket, just not with me.

If you mess up, you just have to accept that you may now be left with a costly problem that was of your making.

Try leaving your passport at home before flying to New York and see if they'll let you travel, or US Immigration will let you in. Some might say that's a silly comparison or a bit over the top, but the point here is that your railcard should be treated as just as important to use a train as a passport might be to go abroad, not something that the railway should perhaps turn a blind eye to.

 

[PatrickO]

I left my season ticket at home one day on the way to work. No time to go home and get it, so I had to buy a full-priced ticket and claim it back later. The rules allow me to do that once or twice per year...

That is an example of a sensible/reasonable way for the system to work if someone makes a genuine mistake. Bills for several hundred pounds and criminal prosecutions are not sensible/reasonable.

 

[RPI]

Sorry, missed that

Sounds like RPI's post (#44) is the most relevant, then, as I'm guessing they are speaking from first-hand knowledge of how things were being handled.

Thank you! Bear in mind I know exactly what was happening at Castle Cary this year!

 

[jon0844]

That is an example of a sensible/reasonable way for the system to work if someone makes a genuine mistake. Bills for several hundred pounds and criminal prosecutions are not sensible/reasonable.

But the several hundred pound bill here is just the cost of the normal ticket, without the discount or having been purchased in advance. It isn't a fine or punishment, although it's clear why it could be seen to be that way.

Here a comparison with an airline doesn't work as you'd have your booking on file and losing your reference number or even boarding card wouldn't mean having to pay for an all-new flight, but if you missed your flight through no fault of the airline, you might well find yourself having to stump up hundreds for a new flight - with your old ticket having no value at all.

We don't know there's going to be criminal prosecution here do we? That would only be if your son had refused to cooperate [perhaps without appreciating the severity of the problem] and effectively talked himself into more trouble, just as refusing to help the police would likely cause untold grief.