Future of Class 315

[Old Hill Bank]

You would end up with eight units with no loo, if the 172/0s were to move to LM you will need to send them to works for loo fitment so you might as well do the job properly and change the cab ends as well.

 

[WatcherZero]

Just heard someone claiming without a source that 21 SWT 159's will be heading to Northern next year from SWT where they will be paired with 150's. I do know Northern were in talks with the Dft about recieving extra stock next year.

Complete fabrication?

 

[Eagle]

And what does this person claim would replace the 159s? There are no spare DMUs, or new ones being built, and no electrification of the SW diesel lines will be forthcoming for at least ten years I reckon.

 

[455driver]

Complete fabrication?

Yes unless he can provide a reliable link.

I can think of a few companies that would love to get their hands on some of SWTs 158/159 units but they have got no chance.

 

[Eagle]

I do know Northern were in talks with the Dft about recieving extra stock next year.

I would assume that's for EMUs to run Liverpool–Manchester and Liverpool–Wigan services, which lines will be electrified by December 2014.

 

[Class377/5]

I would assume that's for EMUs to run Liverpool–Manchester and Liverpool–Wigan services, which lines will be electrified by December 2014.

They need 13x EMU's for then, interesting to see where they come from. (319 & 317's are both needed for that figure.)

 

[A0]

You mean having the gangwayed cabs autocoupled? a'la LUL?

Such as:

(Cab) LO 172 - SPC - LM 172 (Cab) - BSI - (Cab) LM 172 - SPC - LO 172 (Cab)?

Provided you had an equal amount in each direction and they can come back as such of an evening, I can see it as a good way of having a higher availability 4 car fleet, that you can even knock to 2 car off peak, provided you get the cabs the right way round...

Same basic idea that Scottish Region used with the class 126 DMUs - and I believe they experienced the same problem of sets becoming mixed ending up with either two gangwayed cabs on the outside or a gangwayed and non gangwayed cab coupled - thereby losing the ability to walk through the whole unit.

 

[starrymarkb]

And what does this person claim would replace the 159s? There are no spare DMUs, or new ones being built, and no electrification of the SW diesel lines will be forthcoming for at least ten years I reckon.

And I can't see SWT giving up the 159's without a fight. There are no real equivalents on the network to swap them with (given the need for portion working)

 

[Rhydgaled]

And I can't see SWT giving up the 159's without a fight. There are no real equivalents on the network to swap them with (given the need for portion working)

The nearest thing to equivelants to 158s/159s are probably 444s and 5-WESes, and you need electrification for those. 175s are also equivelant to 158s/159s in some respects but lack corridor connections for portion working.

 

[Eagle]

No, 442s and 444s would not be suitable for the Salisbury line. The whole thing is built around 3/6/9-car operations with portioning. 5-car units just wouldn't work.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Possible a couple of 158s may move when the 458 mods are done?

 

[A0]

No, 442s and 444s would not be suitable for the Salisbury line. The whole thing is built around 3/6/9-car operations with portioning. 5-car units just wouldn't work.

It *could* work on the grounds you'd re-work it so that it was a mix of 5 and 10 car workings rather than 3/6/9.

You'd lose a few seats going from 6 car to 5 car, but you'd gain going 9 to 10.

Either way, a slightly bigger problem is that currently any EMU heading to Salisbury would fail shortly after Basingstoke owing to lack of infrastructure......

 

[Eagle]

It *could* work on the grounds you'd re-work it so that it was a mix of 5 and 10 car workings rather than 3/6/9.

You'd lose a few seats going from 6 car to 5 car, but you'd gain going 9 to 10.

Either way, a slightly bigger problem is that currently any EMU heading to Salisbury would fail shortly after Basingstoke owing to lack of infrastructure......

It's not just lengths, though, it's the portion working that you'd lose. There are quite a lot of services that run 6-car to Salisbury then 3-car to Exeter (with the dropped portion going back to London or on to Bristol), or 9-car to Salisbury then 6-car to Exeter. These kinds of scenarios don't work if you change 6-car to 5-car and 9-car to 10-car.
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Mabe a couple of 158s may move when the 458 mods are done?

I don't see how lengthening of some EMUs on the Windsor lines frees up DMUs working the diesel lines round Salisbury.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

It's not just lengths, though, it's the portion working that you'd lose. There are quite a lot of services that run 6-car to Salisbury then 3-car to Exeter (with the dropped portion going back to London or on to Bristol), or 9-car to Salisbury then 6-car to Exeter. These kinds of scenarios don't work if you change 6-car to 5-car and 9-car to 10-car.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't see how lengthening of some EMUs on the Windsor lines frees up DMUs working the diesel lines round Salisbury.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86760

Lymington branch for one

 

[A0]

It's not just lengths, though, it's the portion working that you'd lose. There are quite a lot of services that run 6-car to Salisbury then 3-car to Exeter (with the dropped portion going back to London or on to Bristol), or 9-car to Salisbury then 6-car to Exeter. These kinds of scenarios don't work if you change 6-car to 5-car and 9-car to 10-car.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Like I say - it could work, but there would be other knock-on effects which would have to be considered.

If the line was being electrified and new stock procured, something like 444s would probably be suitable - but the whole timetable and rostering would need to be revisited - as you point out, currently some 159s head on to places like Bristol - that wouldn't be possible if that line isn't electrified, and I'm not sure the Salisbury - Bristol line is likely to justify that.

 

[Eagle]

Even if the Lymington branch shuttle gets something to replace the 158s, they're likely to stay with SWT for other strengthening purposes.

 

[A0]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86760

Lymington branch for one

I somehow think any available 450s are more than in demand in the London area at the moment and with respect taking a 450 away from somewhere it will add desperately needed capacity to simply free up one two car DMU is not a credible argument.

 

[Class377/5]

456 would solve that.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't see how lengthening of some EMUs on the Windsor lines frees up DMUs working the diesel lines round Salisbury.

The probable theory behind this hypothetical story, as I think I see it, is that as it isn't just train lengthening, there are also 6 additional 458/5 units generated, and therefore those 6 units will need a role. So someone somewhere has assumed (quite wrongly IMHO) that those 6 units will displace EMUs from certain routes, hence freeing up some DMUs currently used on third rail diagrams (a fairly regular topic in these forums).

However the fundamental flaw in that supposition is that there is evidence already available (on the SWT website news announcement section) that SWT intend to strengthen a number of existing DMU services on the Salisbury route, as a direct result of the 458/5 conversion, and the future arrival of the 456s.
They also intend to strengthen various 450 and 444 operated services to 12 or 10 car, so we must assume everything is spoken for...

So there's NO evidence that any 158s or 159s are becoming surplus, and some explicit evidence that SWT's main DMU route is to have a number of services strengthened, for example:

0515 from Yeovil Junction (6 car to 9 car)
0543 from Salisbury (6 car to 9 car)

1620 to Exeter (6 car to 8 car)
1720 to Exeter (6 car to 9 car)
1750 to Exeter (6 car to 8 car)

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/extra-capacity-on-south-west-trains.aspx

 

[A-driver]

So are the 365s going to be painted in a mix of Southern, First Capital Connect and (part) SouthEastern colours then? Once you merge those, you could call it all 'one railway'...

Nothing that exciting im afraid. They are just 'livering' them in the same colour scheme which the thameslink fleet will arrive in from Siemens-light grey undercoat with blue doors. The internal modifications will also follow the colour scheme. This is apparently just to align the fleet in the same livery-the DfT wouldn't allow continuation of the FCC livery this close to end of franchise anyway as its a waste of money.

The first 365 unit is back but all that has been really changed is the door mechanism. The first few units back will need to be sent back at the end, with all the delay deciding what to do with them the parts couldn't be ordered in time for the first unit so the rest will be done at the end.

 

[WatcherZero]

Just heard someone claiming without a source that 21 SWT 159's will be heading to Northern next year from SWT where they will be paired with 150's. I do know Northern were in talks with the Dft about recieving extra stock next year.

Complete fabrication?

Turned out to be a disgruntled SWT user as origin.

 

[swt_passenger]

Turned out to be a disgruntled SWT user as origin.

How odd. Wonder what sort of unhappiness about SWT would be fixed by getting rid of a huge chunk of their DMU fleet? hock:

 

[Class377/5]

Nothing that exciting im afraid. They are just 'livering' them in the same colour scheme which the thameslink fleet will arrive in from Siemens-light grey undercoat with blue doors. The internal modifications will also follow the colour scheme. This is apparently just to align the fleet in the same livery-the DfT wouldn't allow continuation of the FCC livery this close to end of franchise anyway as its a waste of money.

Thought we weren't supposed to talk about then yet? That's what I was told. It seems to be the new TSGN livery which the FCC fleet will be a part of in just over a year. Interesting to see the splitting of the branding however between the routes.

This is what all the fuss is about.


365 in TSGN livery. by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

 

[david_VI]

With Crossrail on the way and the announcement about Tfl taking over the West Anglia suburban routes, replacement of Class 315 by 2019 seems very likely.
(will be 40 years old by 2020).
61 units, can anyone tell me if the numbers crunch?
( I am making the assumption that Tfl will order new trains between 2014 - 2018).

Is there a thread on the forum about the TLF West Anglia thingmejig? I've searched to no avail.. Would have thought there would be a discussion on it

 

[A-driver]

Thought we weren't supposed to talk about then yet? That's what I was told. It seems to be the new TSGN livery which the FCC fleet will be a part of in just over a year. Interesting to see the splitting of the branding however between the routes.

This is what all the fuss is about.


365 in TSGN livery. by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

I read it on a staff brief (yes I'm sad enough to read that stuff!) and didn't see anything on it about not being public info etc.

It looks more like an undercoat similar to how the other Siemens stock was delivered to greater anglia and London midland/central. Then when the new franchise older takes over they can paint them into their own fancy colours.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there a thread on the forum about the TLF West Anglia thingmejig? I've searched to no avail.. Would have thought there would be a discussion on it

TfL takeover of certain West Anglian routes was discussed in this thread:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=85772&page=6
Not the most intuitive place to look...

 

[Class377/5]

I read it on a staff brief (yes I'm sad enough to read that stuff!) and didn't see anything on it about not being public info etc.

It looks more like an undercoat similar to how the other Siemens stock was delivered to greater anglia and London midland/central. Then when the new franchise older takes over they can paint them into their own fancy colours.

I didn't read it until someone from HH pointed out the livery, I was told its not yet for public but that was a month ago.

It's the basic livery that all new build or refurbished units are going into for the management contract. May not see them reliveried into a owning groups livery until early 2020's.

 

[CardiffKid]

With Crossrail on the way and the announcement about Tfl taking over the West Anglia suburban routes, replacement of Class 315 by 2019 seems very likely.
(will be 40 years old by 2020).
61 units, can anyone tell me if the numbers crunch?
( I am making the assumption that Tfl will order new trains between 2014 - 2018).

Sorry to sound ignorant and to back track, but why are the Class 315s being taken away from the West Anglia routes?

 

[joeykins82]

TfL are taking over the operation of the West Anglia Metro routes, so all of the Liverpool Street/Stratford to Chingford/Enfield Town/Hertford East/Bishops Stortford (ish) stoppers will be transferred. The details are being finalised but essentially the stopping services will be beefed up and run in the style of London Overground, and whoever succeeds Greater Anglia as the Liverpool Street franchisee will be free to focus on the interurban commuter, long distance and regional services.

It's a relatively safe assumption that, as with LO, TfL will order new stock designed for acceleration to help increase the perception, reliability and performance of the service and thus increase passenger numbers rather than continue with ageing ex-BR cast offs. It's possible that TfL could combine the WAM stock order with the extra cars needed to lengthen the 378s and (depending on the timing) more 378s to operate the electrified GOBLIN services

 

[D365]

Sorry to sound ignorant and to back track, but why are the Class 315s being taken away from the West Anglia routes?

At least it's back-tracking to the topic

They're not being taken away, at least not yet. Most of the Shenfield Metro service will be taken over by the 345 fleet through Crossrail, but what happens with the peak Liverpool Street terminators is undecided. Ditto the West Anglia services as TfL will be taking control of a number of these (refer to previous posts and the explanation by joeykins82 above) and Crossrail 2 is also planned to take over the Hertford East branch. In the meantime, the situation is rather unclear.

EDIT: Joeykins82 has beat me to it! I suppose 378s or any successor may be the case, but rolling stock replacement cannot realistically be confirmed until the Crossrail 2 situation and any mainline upgrade plans are decided.