Manchester Victoria Refurbishment

[61653 HTAFC]

With the various changes to services in the North West (the wires, the Ordsall Chord, etc.) does anyone know (or indeed have access to such information) about what changes are underway to the heavy rail provision at Manchester Victoria station? Obviously the Metrolink area is being remodelled and the leaky roof is being repaired, but is that it? With all the unused space to the South side of the former trainshed it's a shame this can't be used to increase capacity by putting in a few bays for services to and from the East.

 

[dggar]

With the various changes to services in the North West (the wires, the Ordsall Chord, etc.) does anyone know (or indeed have access to such information) about what changes are underway to the heavy rail provision at Manchester Victoria station? Obviously the Metrolink area is being remodelled and the leaky roof is being repaired, but is that it? With all the unused space to the South side of the former trainshed it's a shame this can't be used to increase capacity by putting in a few bays for services to and from the East.

If Heavy rail tracks were put in there where would you suggest they cross the Metrolink tracks

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If Heavy rail tracks were put in there where would you suggest they cross the Metrolink tracks

Well, I'd re-route the Metrolink so that rather than crossing through the middle of the old trainshed with all the space that wastes, it skirted around the edge before rejoining the alignment towards Central Park/Bury/Rochdale. Even better (but subsequently more expensive) would be to drop the Metrolink into a 'cut&cover' tunnel (or elevate it onto a flyover) to completely grade-separate the two systems as is the case at Piccadilly.

Of course, the total area of the 'old' station area is far bigger than would be needed- but if 2-3 extra bay platforms suitable for 8x20m stock (possibly realigning the existing bays too) could be provided this would allow for future growth. I fear that if usage continues to grow at current rates (possibly faster with all the investment) that Victoria station will once again become a bottleneck. I always thought the current situation with the way Metrolink is arranged looks like it was rushed, ill-planned, and never intended to be permanent!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Manchester Metrolink system at Manchester Victoria railway station will be remodelled once (and if) approval is given for the 2CC system expansion.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Manchester Metrolink system at Manchester Victoria railway station will be remodelled once (and if) approval is given for the 2CC system expansion.

I had assumed as much. Presumably the works which are to start soon on the Metrolink station will provide passive provision for 2CC?

It just saddens me every time I'm there to look over at the 'abandoned' side of the trainshed- you'd never guess that this is a major transport interchange in a major European city (and indeed far more convenient than Piccadilly for shopping in the city centre if you live in a place where travel to either is an option!).

 

[WatcherZero]

Remodelling and additional Metrolink platform is already booked in for several months starting this January to coincide with the new roof.

On the heavy rail side they are also expanding the concourse through a mezzanine level and rerouting the access to the arena. Extra bays was considered and for a long time the plan under Northern Hub but they decided to add the terminal capacity through extra platforms at Rochdale and Stalybridge instead.

 

[Silv1983]

No provisions for expansion at the eastern end: no room for anything - but by 2019 you could see a couple of bay platforms at the western end to keep terminating services out of the through platforms once the Ordsall Chord is in place.

 

[Ships]

So initially there was talk about extra platforms but apparently this isn't happening. However as part of the northern hub work (ordsall chord) there's going to be a huge amount of track work being altered. Their of the reasons for the extensive use of portal structures on the new OLE is to accommodate later remodelling which will happen

 

[Dunc108]

I think an additional through platform would be of far more value than terminating Bays (alongside platform 6?) in the long term & perhaps give Victoria a much needed extra through line that would benefit capacity both East & West. I can't understand why the layout wasn't designed also with a platform avoiding through line for freight, the diamond crossovers unquestionably make the respective platforms more flexible, even if they seem like an afterthought. I've heard the Victoria layout maybe altered in some fashion with electrification, but I need to hear more details, as I'm not sure what they have in mind..

Its a shame they can't shift the main entrance to the Arena elsewhere & then be able to remove the 'concrete roof' which would enable the new roof to be extended perhaps over the through platforms so we'd have a through section looking more like Leeds & less like Birmingham New Street!

Also, I appreciate Red Bank sidings may never exist again, but there's certainly room for some potential EMU/DMU stabling sidings at the site of Newtown Carriage Sidings, if needed, plus you've got crossovers to each line already in place before this is reached without the need for additional trackage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, I'd re-route the Metrolink so that rather than crossing through the middle of the old trainshed with all the space that wastes, it skirted around the edge before rejoining the alignment towards Central Park/Bury/Rochdale. Even better (but subsequently more expensive) would be to drop the Metrolink into a 'cut&cover' tunnel (or elevate it onto a flyover) to completely grade-separate the two systems as is the case at Piccadilly.

Of course, the total area of the 'old' station area is far bigger than would be needed- but if 2-3 extra bay platforms suitable for 8x20m stock (possibly realigning the existing bays too) could be provided this would allow for future growth. I fear that if usage continues to grow at current rates (possibly faster with all the investment) that Victoria station will once again become a bottleneck. I always thought the current situation with the way Metrolink is arranged looks like it was rushed, ill-planned, and never intended to be permanent!

It will become a bottleneck & probably is already, when I go through, Wigan - Rochdale 'stoppers' are regularly held at lights at Deal Street waiting for the Blackpool to clear platform 6! It was clearly redesigned when the huge growth in rail travel was not forseen & when freight became less, many local suburban trains were almost doubled in frequency to take the paths.

 

[snowball]

the leaky roof is being repaired.

Replaced, not repaired.

The Manchester Metrolink system at Manchester Victoria railway station will be remodelled once (and if) approval is given for the 2CC system expansion.

Hopefully 2CC will have been approved by the time it starts, but the remodelling starts in January regardless.

With the growth in rail patronage in recent years I imagine Network Rail are regretting some of the space that was given up to the arena.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Replaced, not repaired.

Hopefully this will be sympathetic to the original design and will restore (some of) the station's former glory!

 

[snowball]

The new roof is transparent ETFE and totally unlike the original, but the zigzag marks on the wall where the original roof met it will remain. For discussion and pictures you can see the relevant thread on the Skyscrapercity forums. Here's a link to its current page:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=498239&page=93

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The new roof is transparent ETFE and totally unlike the original, but the zigzag marks on the wall where the original roof met it will remain. For discussion and pictures you can see the relevant thread on the Skyscrapercity forums. Here's a link to its current page:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=498239&page=93

Thanks for that. Is that the same stuff used at Newport?

 

[Ships]

Same as used in Manchester Piccadilly. The butchering of Victoria in the early 90s was absolutely criminal IMO. I know it wasn't in a great state but loosing so many through platforms was a bad idea.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Same as used in Manchester Piccadilly. The butchering of Victoria in the early 90s was absolutely criminal IMO. I know it wasn't in a great state but loosing so many through platforms was a bad idea.

Were there more than four originally? I was under the impression that most of the platforms lost were termini pointing towards Oldham/Rochdale/Stalybridge/Bury. Then again, I only remember being there once before the rebuild and I'd guess that was around 1990/91 when I was 8 or 9!

I remember going on to look at the trains with my dad and big brother, and us two lads being really excited about the lone, brand-new Mk3 DVT in one of the terminating platforms!

 

[RochdalePioneers]

There used to be 17 platforms! 1-10 were bays, of which only 9 and 10 are left now numbered 1 and 2. These bays were islands, with a siding in between the higher numbered ones that always seemed to have locos stabled on them in my memory. There also used to be loco stabling outside both East Junction and West Junction signal boxes plus also sometimes on the Wall Side loop (and I'm talking late 80s here....)

Through platforms were 11-16. 11 was slightly closer to the concourse than 3 is, and was divided in 2 with crossovers from the through lines. 11 also joined directly onto P1 at Manchester Exchange with yet another set of crossovers, so 3 separate sections of continuous platform. Between 11 and 12 were a pair of through lines plus the Wall Side loop used for stabling banking engines up Miles Platting bank. 12/13 and 14/15 were wide curvy islands. 16 sat behind 15, with 17 an east facing bay.



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[yorksrob]

There were six through platforms at the time of rebuilding. Yes, Victoria had lost a lot of traffic to the Windsor link, but in hindsight, they's have been better off giving the place a lick of paint in 1992 rather than rebuilding.

 

[edwin_m]

According ot the rather fascinating link below, Victoria had bay platforms 1 to 10 and through platforms 11 to 17 so there were at one time three more through platforms than there are now, plus two (I think) non-platform tracks for the trains that called at Exchange instead. Some of these may have been closed before the rebuilding. That lines up with my memories of the place as a child in the 70s and with the amount of trackbed going over Great Ducie Street and disappearing into the wall of the Arena building. I agree it was very short sighted not to design the Arena with spaceproofing for at least two more through platforms, which would match the six that are possible through Salford Crescent and provided decent facilities for terminating from the west. The Arena could have been built a bit further to the north and gone over Trinity Way instead.

http://www.signalbox.org/branches/bw/manvic.htm

A reopened Red Bank would be accessible only via the two northernmost through platforms at Victoria so rather restricted operationally.

The idea of westward-facing platforms on the Exchange site seems to have gone quiet. If built, they would be quite a long walk from the rest of the station!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Perhaps all that space that's currently wasted on the city side of the current tram platforms (according to posts above the site of platforms 1-7) could have a new arena built on it- with the MEN/NYNEX being demolished to free up space to reopen the third pair of through lines?

 

[table38]

...Victoria had bay platforms 1 to 10 and through platforms 11 to 17 so there were at one time three more through platforms than there are now, plus two (I think) non-platform tracks for the trains that called at Exchange instead. Some of these may have been closed before the rebuilding.

See also attached map

 

[Welshman]

The idea of westward-facing platforms on the Exchange site seems to have gone quiet. If built, they would be quite a long walk from the rest of the station!

Perhaps they could extend platform 3 to reach these proposed westbound bays, thus making a long platform between the two sites.

That would be a novel idea - oh, hang on................

 

[edwin_m]

See also attached map

Thanks for that wonderful map! Looks like there were only six through platforms and what I thought was the seventh was another east-facing bay.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks for that wonderful map! Looks like there were only six through platforms and what I thought was the seventh was another east-facing bay.

Yeah, that map is really interesting. Looks like the two 'lost' through platforms would be far too curvy for modern standards though, even if they could be relaid.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, that map is really interesting. Looks like the two 'lost' through platforms would be far too curvy for modern standards though, even if they could be relaid.

Ah, but the existing through platforms are further South than the ones they replaced (on the site of the through lines) so perhaps, if some of the MEN Arena car park could be commandeered, the extra platforms would be less curvey than the originals.

(I'd still rather they'd kept the original ones though !)

 

[Darren R]

Platform 17 - the northern-most, east-facing bay - was very, very rarely used for passenger trains though. Originally it was for parcels use and latterly also used for stabling sometimes. Platform 16, although a through platform, was rarely used as such. It was more or less exclusively used as an arrivals platform for trains terminating from the Bolton lines.

Not particularly relevant to the thread I know, but it's always worth indulging in a bit of nostalgia for Victoria in happier times!

 

[dggar]

There used to be 17 platforms! 1-10 were bays, of which only 9 and 10 are left now numbered 1 and 2. These bays were islands, with a siding in between the higher numbered ones that always seemed to have locos stabled on them in my memory. There also used to be loco stabling outside both East Junction and West Junction signal boxes plus also sometimes on the Wall Side loop (and I'm talking late 80s here....)

Through platforms were 11-16. 11 was slightly closer to the concourse than 3 is, and was divided in 2 with crossovers from the through lines. 11 also joined directly onto P1 at Manchester Exchange with yet another set of crossovers, so 3 separate sections of continuous platform. Between 11 and 12 were a pair of through lines plus the Wall Side loop used for stabling banking engines up Miles Platting bank. 12/13 and 14/15 were wide curvy islands. 16 sat behind 15, with 17 an east facing bay.



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I think you will find it was P3 at Exchange.
If I remember correctly P1 & P2 at Exchange were West facing bays.

Just looked at the image of the track layout in #20 It was P3.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If I remember correctly P1 & P2 at Exchange were West facing bays.

I remember making a journey from platform 1 bay platform at Manchester Exchange station to Holyhead in the 1960's period.

Incidentally, on the very long Victoria platform 11 to Exchange platform 3, you would find newspaper van trains in inordinate length near to midnight, ready to take Manchester-printed newspapers to many places. The carriage sidings at Red Bank was a storage place for these vans between services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Platform 16, although a through platform, was rarely used as such. It was more or less exclusively used as an arrivals platform for trains terminating from the Bolton lines. Not particularly relevant to the thread I know, but it's always worth indulging in a bit of nostalgia for Victoria in happier times!

Indeed so. Many are the times I have disembarked there at platform 16 and walked down the ramp to the tiled passageway that went under the running lines, which then came up on the main concourse area of Victoria station. That passageway also offered connections to platforms 12/13 and 14/15.

The eastern-facing bay platform 17 in its later years had a brick wall partition with about three openings to seperate it from platform 16, which allowed access to and from the platform for parcels on mechanised carriers.

 

[Dunc108]

Platform 17 - the northern-most, east-facing bay - was very, very rarely used for passenger trains though. Originally it was for parcels use and latterly also used for stabling sometimes. Platform 16, although a through platform, was rarely used as such. It was more or less exclusively used as an arrivals platform for trains terminating from the Bolton lines.

Not particularly relevant to the thread I know, but it's always worth indulging in a bit of nostalgia for Victoria in happier times!

There were alot of terminators in platform 16 but all parcels trains aswell as Intercity workings from Glasgow/Edinburgh then went forth to Red Bank Carriage sidings for stabling/light servicing before their respective return journeys. Always remember the Mk2 air cons on Scottish services with their 70s panelled interiors & Mk1 buffet car!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

According ot the rather fascinating link below, Victoria had bay platforms 1 to 10 and through platforms 11 to 17 so there were at one time three more through platforms than there are now, plus two (I think) non-platform tracks for the trains that called at Exchange instead. Some of these may have been closed before the rebuilding. That lines up with my memories of the place as a child in the 70s and with the amount of trackbed going over Great Ducie Street and disappearing into the wall of the Arena building. I agree it was very short sighted not to design the Arena with spaceproofing for at least two more through platforms, which would match the six that are possible through Salford Crescent and provided decent facilities for terminating from the west. The Arena could have been built a bit further to the north and gone over Trinity Way instead.

http://www.signalbox.org/branches/bw/manvic.htm

A reopened Red Bank would be accessible only via the two northernmost through platforms at Victoria so rather restricted operationally.

The idea of westward-facing platforms on the Exchange site seems to have gone quiet. If built, they would be quite a long walk from the rest of the station!

Im not well up on the Arenas construction, but its a shame it cant be modified to accomodate an extra through platform or two for Victoria. I agree re Redbank, but I personally think Newtown would be more accessible & slightly closer. The turnback next to the Exchange site looks well used but it only benefits platforms 3 & 4.

 

[edwin_m]

Im not well up on the Arenas construction, but its a shame it cant be modified to accomodate an extra through platform or two for Victoria. I agree re Redbank, but I personally think Newtown would be more accessible & slightly closer. The turnback next to the Exchange site looks well used but it only benefits platforms 3 & 4.

I've never been in the Arena but I suspect the higher tiers of the seating are above the northernmost platforms but they probably slope down close to track level north of this. If this is so it would be not far off total demolition and rebuild to add any more through tracks.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe the area immediately to the North of platform six may be a car park. Certainly, having rocked out at the arena previously, I can‘t remember going down into the seating area from the mezzanine.

I suspect the ability to install extra platforms without knocking down the MEN will depend on whether provision was provided for this in the Arena design in terms of column spacing etc. It‘s not difficult to imagine that the structure of the Arena to the north of platform six might be similar to the design south of it.