Northern possibly close to taking on extra EMUs

[LNW-GW Joint]

2 (?) will be required for when the wires are extended to Bromsgrove (is that happening still?)

Yes it's in the CP5 plans.
As is a new loop on the Redditch branch, to allow more services there too.
All these need to be 323 (well, 3/6x23m).

 

[swt_passenger]

Latest update is that the Redditch aspects are supposed to start in November this year, if consent is granted, for completion by August 2014.

Of course both associated projects should have originally been done within CP4...

 

[Starmill]

I highly dowbt it...

LOL! In the sense that the 323s are just that good or in the sense that the 319s are crap at the moment and even completely new motors can't change that?

 

[158722]

Yes it's in the CP5 plans.
As is a new loop on the Redditch branch, to allow more services there too.
All these need to be 323 (well, 3/6x23m).

Cheers, confirms what I thought then.

Presumably the current four Longbridge terminators per hour will be extended to Redditch (2?) & Bromsgrove (2?), implying an extra 3 or 4 diagrams will be required to cover the longer journey times.

In my other post, the Barnt Green 'extras' are in fact Hereford stoppers (doah!), so there appear to 25 Birmingham EMU diagrams, of which 24 are currently 323s and 1 350.

If extra capacity is created on the Redditch branch, it doesn't look like there will be any trains to run extra services unless the 350/3s are delivered in time - 3 of the 10 on order are supposedly for Cross-city services (or Walsall-Wolves with the 323s moved to Redditch services).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In what of the other large European countries are elderly refurbished units thought acceptable for proposed "new" stock replacement between the MAJOR cities of those countries rather than the provision of new units.

 

[Nym]

LOL! In the sense that the 323s are just that good or in the sense that the 319s are crap at the moment and even completely new motors can't change that?

319s have DC Traction on four axles with chopper control, chopper control is nearly the most modern DC traction control available, but DC motors are not ideal, especially in the mid end.

323s have Single Source Excitation GTO Thyristor Controlled 3 Phase AC Motors on 8 axles, not only is this motoring on more axles, it incorporates (if I'm thinking right from what I know of Hunslet's control equipment) variable winding controls and by the very virtue of AC traction, very good wheel slip protection and traction control.

Even if the 319s are refurbished with IGBT invertors on the currently motored axles with AC motors, they won't be as powerful, nor will you have as much tractive effort at the low end because you simply have many less points of contact with the track.

 

[swt_passenger]

Presumably the current four Longbridge terminators per hour will be extended to Redditch (2?) & Bromsgrove (2?), implying an extra 3 or 4 diagrams will be required to cover the longer journey times.

Isn't the published proposal to run 3 tph each to Redditch and Bromsgrove?

 

[Class172]

Isn't the published proposal to run 3 tph each to Redditch and Bromsgrove?

Yes, Redditch currently receive 2tph and the new passing loop will allow that to increase to 3tph: when the Bromsgrove project is complete the remaining Longbridge terminators (3tph) will be extended to Bromsgove.

 

[158722]

Isn't the published proposal to run 3 tph each to Redditch and Bromsgrove?

Yeap, just found reports saying the same and Class172 has confirmed too. Absorbs the 3 350/3s on order.

 

[jonnyfan]

I've been having a read of this for a while and thought I'd share my thoughts

It would make sense for Northern to take on the spare 317/7 for this Decembers timetable change.
The extra units would allow Northern to free up as many DMUs as possible that are used under wires. DMUs which they badly need to try and beef up services through Bolton after TPE divert their Scotland services via Wigan.

 

[northwichcat]

In what of the other large European countries are elderly refurbished units thought acceptable for proposed "new" stock replacement between the MAJOR cities of those countries rather than the provision of new units.

Or even do other countries generally cascade rolling stock around the country?

While it's a type of tram not train the Czech designed Tatra KT4 tram started being produced in the 1970s for East Germany, Soviet Union and Yugoslavia and is still in use today. The ones that are still in use had accessibility improvements made in the 1990s. Germany doesn't keep these away from the capital - they are used in Berlin and nearby Potsdam, in fact Tatra KT4 trams used in Leipzig were cascaded towards the capital when they got replaced by brand new stock, not away from it. Now compare that to our country where 1980s Pacers haven't really had accessibility improvements and Manchester Metrolink are scrapping 1990s trams and we're cascading older stock (like 150s and 31xs) away from the capital not towards it.

Going back to trains between cities, quite often in Europe you have the choice of paying a premium fare and being able to travel on an Intercity train or paying a standard fare and only being allowed to use the regional and local services. In our country Manchester to Liverpool, Manchester to Leeds and Manchester to Sheffield (among others) only give you the standard regional/local option.

 

[IrishDave]

Indeed, but a quick scan of current LM services and diagrams suggests that they need 26 units to cover the Cross city line (14 all day diagrams, 5 peak time turns to create 6-car sets plus 2 odd-ball extras) and 5 for Walsall-Wolves turns). LM only have 26 323s at present, hence the use of a 350 on a Walsall-Wolves turn and I suspect there may be at least one another non-323 turn, meaning they require 24 of the 26 323s in service.

From looking at the current diagrams, there are 23 diagrams for the 26 LM 323s, with three spare units. There are indeed 14 all-day diagrams on the Cross-City, of which three are 6-car all day, so that's 17 units.

Two of the Cross-City diagrams are 6-car in the morning peak, but each have one unit split off to form Walsall-Wolverhampton diagrams (one from about 9am, one goes back to Soho at 11am and comes out again at 3pm). There are two units on Walsall-Wolverhampton all day, and another which comes out in both peaks (the last covers the oddball Wolves-Four Oaks in the morning). The final unit shuttles between New Street and International, and that's all 23.

That means that at least some of three of the five Walsall-Wolverhampton diagrams must be formed of 350s - one until 3pm, one in the morning peak and one most of the day from 8am to about 5pm.

As I understand it, the 10 new 350/3s are logically split as 7 for improved fast services to Northampton in the peaks, and 3 for the West Midlands, which I believe means replacing *all* the 323s that currently do Wolves-Walsall with 350s. With a little rejigging of the diagrams, I suspect that leaves you five 323s spare - and five 323s is exactly how many you need, I believe, to run the 3tph to Bromsgrove / 3tph to Redditch which is planned.

 

[Buttsy]

In what of the other large European countries are elderly refurbished units thought acceptable for proposed "new" stock replacement between the MAJOR cities of those countries rather than the provision of new units.

I think your point is valid, but did not the Airedale service start off with second-hand units? I know Cross-City did. Perhaps once the sparks effect has tripled ridership, new units will be ordered for the North.

 

[D365]

I think your point is valid, but did not the Airedale service start off with second-hand units? I know Cross-City did. Perhaps once the sparks effect has tripled ridership, new units will be ordered for the North.

As will likely happen with Cardiff Valley, 315s released by Crossrail having been proposed in the 5-10 year interim with the possibility of new stock once justified, perhaps alongside replacement of the GN 313s. The case for electrification was made on there being this second-hand stock available in order to improve the CBA, as with those other mentioned schemes.

 

[158722]

From looking at the current diagrams, there are 23 diagrams for the 26 LM 323s, with three spare units. There are indeed 14 all-day diagrams on the Cross-City, of which three are 6-car all day, so that's 17 units.

Two of the Cross-City diagrams are 6-car in the morning peak, but each have one unit split off to form Walsall-Wolverhampton diagrams (one from about 9am, one goes back to Soho at 11am and comes out again at 3pm). There are two units on Walsall-Wolverhampton all day, and another which comes out in both peaks (the last covers the oddball Wolves-Four Oaks in the morning). The final unit shuttles between New Street and International, and that's all 23.

That means that at least some of three of the five Walsall-Wolverhampton diagrams must be formed of 350s - one until 3pm, one in the morning peak and one most of the day from 8am to about 5pm.

As I understand it, the 10 new 350/3s are logically split as 7 for improved fast services to Northampton in the peaks, and 3 for the West Midlands, which I believe means replacing *all* the 323s that currently do Wolves-Walsall with 350s. With a little rejigging of the diagrams, I suspect that leaves you five 323s spare - and five 323s is exactly how many you need, I believe, to run the 3tph to Bromsgrove / 3tph to Redditch which is planned.

Excellent info and thanks for improving my analysis no end! What you say makes sense and I'd hadn't tried to work out if there was any sort of balancing between morning/evening peaks.

So, the result is that LM don't need any more units for the WM until Rugeley gets wired in 2017 (?) for which they will need an extra 4 units (assuming the same service pattern continues), then another 2 for Coventry-Nuneaton in 2018 (?). Replacing the 5x 350s on Walsall-Wolves (to displace 5 of the residual 321s on Northamptons with some diagram tightening to allow a 350 vice 321 on the St Albans flyer) around the same time would then account for 11 of the potential 17 ex-Northern 323s. The balance will no doubt be welcomed to make services up to 6-car sets.

I nominate that the plan is a phased cascade of the 17 323s from Northern to LM in 2017, replaced by a similar number of 319s from FCC, freed up by on-going 700 deliveries. More or less - 12x 319s to Northern in 2013/14 (freed up by the 377/6 & 7 deliveries), another 28 or so in 2015/16 (having been displaced by the 377/8s) with another 18 or so in 2016/17 (displaced by 700s) and used to send the 323s to LM.

Do I get any sort of fee from the DfT for this?!

 

[Starmill]

319s have DC Traction on four axles with chopper control, chopper control is nearly the most modern DC traction control available, but DC motors are not ideal, especially in the mid end.

323s have Single Source Excitation GTO Thyristor Controlled 3 Phase AC Motors on 8 axles, not only is this motoring on more axles, it incorporates (if I'm thinking right from what I know of Hunslet's control equipment) variable winding controls and by the very virtue of AC traction, very good wheel slip protection and traction control.

Even if the 319s are refurbished with IGBT invertors on the currently motored axles with AC motors, they won't be as powerful, nor will you have as much tractive effort at the low end because you simply have many less points of contact with the track.

Show off

 

[tbtc]

I think your point is valid, but did not the Airedale service start off with second-hand units? I know Cross-City did. Perhaps once the sparks effect has tripled ridership, new units will be ordered for the North.

Correct.

THe Airedale and Wharfdale lines got cascaded 308s before three coach 333s came along (later extended to four coaches).

Manchester Airport got cascaded 305s before the new 323s came along. The 305s then moved onto the newly electrified North Berwick line (before 322s were cascaded away from Stansted, and later new 380s arrived).

The point missed by some is that the business case for a lot of electrification is based on getting "cheap" EMUs in the short term - once passenger numbers are proven there's a case to be made for some new/ longer stock.

In ten years time we'll have new EMUs on a number of lines, but there's need for some cascaded 315s/ 317s/ 319s etc in the short term.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The point missed by some is that the business case for a lot of electrification is based on getting "cheap" EMUs in the short term - once passenger numbers are proven there's a case to be made for some new/ longer stock.

Is the business case scenario you mention only applicable to anywhere outside the "London-based" projects at the current point in time ?

 

[Buttsy]

Is the business case scenario you mention only applicable to anywhere outside the "London-based" projects at the current point in time ?

Which was the last major electrification project in London? ECML?

Remember those calculating the BCAs are all based in London and misjudge the benefits as they believe everyone to be on the 'rock n roll' ooop north.

Also, Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells is from the south...

 

[34D]

Which was the last major electrification project in London? ECML?

Remember those calculating the BCAs are all based in London and misjudge the benefits as they believe everyone to be on the 'rock n roll' ooop north.

Also, Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells is from the south...

Paddington to Heathrow? Various DLR extensions? Emirates air line?

 

[Class377/5]

Paddington to Heathrow? Various DLR extensions? Emirates air line?

How are the DLR and the cable cars electrification works as the question was asked?

 

[northwichcat]

Correct.

THe Airedale and Wharfdale lines got cascaded 308s before three coach 333s came along (later extended to four coaches).

I think we should have one major electrification thread as exactly the same thing came up in the Valley Lines electrification thread.

The Airedale and Wharfedale lines initially looked set to get new 323s but the government of the time decided against a new unit order so they got cascaded 308s instead. The lack of a new class 323 order resulted in Hunslet having no new work and ceasing to exist.

Manchester Airport got cascaded 305s before the new 323s came along. The 305s then moved onto the newly electrified North Berwick line (before 322s were cascaded away from Stansted, and later new 380s arrived).

Had the similar 304s off the Altrincham line been saved for that then the cascaded EMUs wouldn't have been new to the area.

The Manchester Airport bit was a new spur off a line that was electrified in the 1950s so it's a bit different to lines with a diesel service that got electrified. Building a new spur without overhead wires wouldn't have made economic sense.

Four of the five 322s also spent a period with North Western Trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Which was the last major electrification project in London? ECML?

West London Line (Eurostar/North Pole/freight, mixed AC/DC)
Paddington-Heathrow (AC)
North London Line (AC conversion and extension to WLL for Eurostar).
ELR extensions (DC).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Had the similar 304s off the Altrincham line been saved for that then the cascaded EMUs wouldn't have been new to the area.

As one who, in somewhat younger days, had the unfortunance to use the Class 304 slam-door stock from Timperley, I was found to be forever longing for their withdrawal for years in the same way that I hold the vision of the final withdrawal of the Class 142 Pacer units so very close to my heart, as those who know of me on this forum will so attest.

Perhaps the Class 304 units towards the end of their long working life were the precursor of what we in "Northernland" were expected to become inured to by the nightmare that is the never-ending saga of "Newton Heaths finest".

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps the Class 304 units towards the end of their long working life were the precursor of what we in "Northernland" were expected to become inured to by the nightmare that is the never-ending saga of "Newton Heaths finest".

But was there any real difference between the 304s and 305s? To me it sounds like it's the same as 507s compared to 508s - one built for one area and another built for another area a couple of years later with very minor differences that would be hard for a passenger to spot.

 

[158722]

I think we should have one major electrification thread as exactly the same thing came up in the Valley Lines electrification thread.

Funnily enough, I'm trying to put together some notes on all of the electrification projects announced and their potential impacts in services and lfeet changes. Becoming a bit of a mammoth task, given everything that has been announced!

Worth posting it once I get it to a sufficient level?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Funnily enough, I'm trying to put together some notes on all of the electrification projects announced and their potential impacts in services and lfeet changes. Becoming a bit of a mammoth task, given everything that has been announced!

Worth posting it once I get it to a sufficient level?

Did a uni project on it last year.... mammoth task doesn't quite cover it.

 

[northwichcat]

Did a uni project on it last year.... mammoth task doesn't quite cover it.

If you were 10 years younger you may not have even been able to write enough to fit the word count for the assignment.

 

[tbtc]

Is the business case scenario you mention only applicable to anywhere outside the "London-based" projects at the current point in time ?

There's no guarantee of brand new stock on "London based" electrification projects:

The Thames Valley lines were going to get the same Class 319s that "Lancashire" was going to get some of (rumours abound about 110mph stock, but still just rumours).

The "GOBLIN" may get cascaded stock from elsewhere (certainly no guarantee of 378s).

Meanwhile one forthcoming electrification guaranteed to get brand new EMUs is the Manchester - Preston - Glasgow/ Edinburgh TPE service.

I don't know why there's the assumption that electrification always means brand new trains - it rarely has.

 

[northwichcat]

There's no guarantee of brand new stock on "London based" electrification projects:

The Thames Valley lines were going to get the same Class 319s that "Lancashire" was going to get some of (rumours abound about 110mph stock, but still just rumours).

There are plans for Thames Valley to get 319s but Network Rail's rolling stock strategy looked at options to replace the 319s with 5 car 110mph stock in CP6. Now some people are suggesting the interim 319s will get skipped.

The "GOBLIN" may get cascaded stock from elsewhere (certainly no guarantee of 378s).

I would think additional 378s would be likely in that case to ensure a consistent fleet with cheaper maintenance costs.