New to rail industry Union help

[Flamingo]

Strange what you say went on at your branch Flamingo.

To clarify, it wasn't my depot.

 

[Casey Jones125]

Well firstly well done for answering your own question!

Secondly, it's not bullying, when the majority are paying into a union who I turn negotiate pay rises that all happily accept and also pay for things like messroom tv, sky box, DVD, coffee machine, comfy chairs etc then it's a little unfair for one or two to decide not to pay towards all that whilst still enjoying the benefits.

Sorry but there is no reason not to join a union. The very things pulling most drivers into the grade are things which the unions have negotiated for over the years. People opting out of the unions are dangerous as if enough people do it the unions will loose all power. Think what you will of unions but all it will lead to is more work for less pay. And then the very people who haven't joined the union will complain that the job had got so bad.



If you have political reasons not to join then you can politically opt out. Every member also has the opportunity to attend branch meeting every month and put their views across.

Not bullying.

People opting out of the unions are dangerous as if enough people do it the unions will loose all power

Good!

I would not want my fees going to internationalist agendas like helping workers in Venezuela, cuba, etc

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100052/135521/demand_justice_for_factory_workers/

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100052/135235/protest_at_awe_aldermaston/

Coffee machines and comfy chairs !
Employers have to provide facilities for rest by law i have just done a course covering employee responsibilities, i don't want to be cow towing to unions for something that is provided anyway!

I have never worked in an industry which allows unions and as an outsider i have always seen unions as labour /communist lite organisations.
It is ok opting out of the political levy but your monies will still go towards dodgy communist anti British campaigns as i have already pointed out.

Not for me comrade!

 

[notadriver]

I think this thread should probably be locked before it gets out of hand.

 

[A-driver]

People opting out of the unions are dangerous as if enough people do it the unions will loose all power

Good!

I would not want my fees going to internationalist agendas like helping workers in Venezuela, cuba, etc

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100052/135521/demand_justice_for_factory_workers/

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100052/135235/protest_at_awe_aldermaston/

Coffee machines and comfy chairs !
Employers have to provide facilities for rest by law i have just done a course covering employee responsibilities, i don't want to be cow towing to unions for something that is provided anyway!

I have never worked in an industry which allows unions and as an outsider i have always seen unions as labour /communist lite organisations.
It is ok opting out of the political levy but your monies will still go towards dodgy communist anti British campaigns as i have already pointed out.

Not for me comrade!

Well I suggest you stay in industries without unions then, seems you will be happier there than working on the railways.

And what's wrong with helping workers in other countries improve their conditions? You would prefer to know that Cubans and venuzaulens are working for next to nothing in poor conditions do you? You'd hate to think of them getting any help to improve their working environments?

And employers have to provide a certain amount for employees but some mess room furnishings are beyond what they are legally required to provide. TV, DVD, sky subscription, comfy chairs (ie lazy boys as opposed to normal table and chair), coffee machine rather than a kettle etc are all extras often provided by the unions social fund, not the toc (and quite rightly-I don't see why my employer needs to pay for out sky subscription or coffee machine etc).

 

[Flamingo]

Unions are necessary, not every employer is beneficient, and will operate within the law - and where did the motivation for laws protecting workers come from, anyway.

But some unions can't see that in a lot of circumstances wielding a stick is not the best solution - equally, I have worked in jobs where the unions were a joke, and staff were treated with contempt.

And before anyone asks, the jobs where staff were badly treated were public sector, the best treatment I have had was in private sector jobs.

edited to add; in FGW, the social fund has nothing to do with the union, at least in the depot's I'm familiar with.

 

[455driver]

You would prefer to know that Cubans and venuzaulens are working for next to nothing in poor conditions do you?

He couldnt give a stuff because he is a perfect example of the me me me society!

You'd hate to think of them getting any help to improve their working environments?

Oh he doesnt mind them getting help as long as someone else is paying for it!



Oops is that bullying? :roll:

 

[Casey Jones125]

He couldnt give a stuff because he is a perfect example of the me me me society!



Oh he doesnt mind them getting help as long as someone else is paying for it!



Oops is that bullying? :roll:

Actually fellas i do not agree with funding socialist/communist pet projects.

Sky subscription for the proles whilst the subscriptions go toward funding socialist idealism!

 

[A-driver]

Actually fellas i do not agree with funding socialist/communist pet projects.

Sky subscription for the proles whilst the subscriptions go toward funding socialist idealism!

Then stay out of a unionised workforce/industry. Simple as that.

 

[Casey Jones125]

Then stay out of a unionised workforce/industry. Simple as that.

I will apply to work where i please thank you very much pal.

 

[A-driver]

I will apply to work where i please thank you very much pal.

Fine, but if you enter a unionised workforce like train drivers who have unions to thank for their pay and conditions and you choose to stay out of the union then you may find yourself becoming rather unpopular-what you suggested would be bullying. To be honest having a union is part of the job.

 

[Shaggy]

Fine, but if you enter a unionised workforce like train drivers who have unions to thank for their pay and conditions and you choose to stay out of the union then you may find yourself becoming rather unpopular-what you suggested would be bullying. To be honest having a union is part of the job.

The tone of your reply is somewhat sinister and threatening. Exactly the reasons why I refuse to join any of the main unions.

Unless any other brothers are prepared to denounce this type of bullying talk?

 

[A-driver]

The tone of your reply is somewhat sinister and threatening. Exactly the reasons why I refuse to join any of the main unions.

Unless any other brothers are prepared to denounce this type of bullying talk?

I'm not bullying. I'm just pointing out that it's only fair for all benefitting workers to contribute a very small amount of their salary towards the union who are protecting their conditions of employment. If you choose to stay out of a union then you are shooting yourself in the foot.

If too many thought like you then the union would quickly loose any influence and you would end up on far less money doing far more work.

You honestly think that is a good thing?

 

[Shaggy]

I'm not bullying. I'm just pointing out that it's only fair for all benefitting workers to contribute a very small amount of their salary towards the union who are protecting their conditions of employment. If you choose to stay out of a union then you are shooting yourself in the foot.

If too many thought like you then the union would quickly loose any influence and you would end up on far less money doing far more work.

You honestly think that is a good thing?

I've never asked any union to do anything for me. I would be quite happy to negotiate my own situation with my employer (or with some like-minded others), however the main unions do not allow anyone but them to negotiate with the employer.

When I have the choice to opt-out of the unions' negotiations, I would be more than happy to lie in the bed I've made. Until that point I refuse to be bullied and intimidated into joining an organisation I disagree with on so many levels.

 

[Barn]

Actually fellas i do not agree with funding socialist/communist pet projects.

Sky subscription for the proles whilst the subscriptions go toward funding socialist idealism!

Then stay out of a unionised workforce/industry. Simple as that.

You're basically saying train driving should be a closed shop. Which is very much against the law, of course.

 

[Clip]

Well firstly well done for answering your own question!

Secondly, it's not bullying, when the majority are paying into a union who I turn negotiate pay rises that all happily accept and also pay for things like messroom tv, sky box, DVD, coffee machine, comfy chairs etc then it's a little unfair for one or two to decide not to pay towards all that whilst still enjoying the benefits.
.

To be fair though - and I have said this before - the unions want collective bargaining and negotiation FOR ALL, so that must include those who are not in the union. And you know fine well that if people not in the union negotiated themselves a pay rise which may be a little bit better and with a perk or two more then you and the rest of the union would be up in arms about it.

You either have the negotiations for all or you allow individuals to get their own and not kick up a fuss about it after.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think this thread should probably be locked before it gets out of hand.

This is a sensible idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fine, but if you enter a unionised workforce like train drivers who have unions to thank for their pay and conditions and you choose to stay out of the union then you may find yourself becoming rather unpopular-what you suggested would be bullying. To be honest having a union is part of the job.

I strongly disagree with this also and from what you have said is as much as bullying, i.e - you cant work here unless you are in a union! Last time I read employment conditions and employment law being part of any union is NOT a job requirement.

 

[the sniper]

If the likes of Casey Jones were to become a driver I don't think they'd face any 'bullying' or major problems if he just chose not to be in the union. If though they came into the mess room mouthing off like he has in this thread, ignoring or denouncing the work the union has done for its members at depot level, ranting on about political ideologies and generally winding people up, I can see why he or someone like him would have problems. It's got nothing to do with Unions endorsing bullying, it'd be due to them being rather annoying, boring and uneasy to get on with.

Anyway, if it weren't for the conditions and pretty amazing pay deals that ASLEF have managed to secure in many locations over the last 20 years, I doubt the likes of Casey Jones would have any interest in being a driver...

Unless of course, had there been no Union over the last 20 years, individual drivers would have worked out better deals with TOCs? Nope, it'd have been a race to the bottom, chasing the bus drivers pay and conditions down the drain... Divided folk stand, together they fall.

 

[A-driver]

I've never asked any union to do anything for me. I would be quite happy to negotiate my own situation with my employer (or with some like-minded others), however the main unions do not allow anyone but them to negotiate with the employer.

When I have the choice to opt-out of the unions' negotiations, I would be more than happy to lie in the bed I've made. Until that point I refuse to be bullied and intimidated into joining an organisation I disagree with on so many levels.

You honestly think for a second that you could negotiate your own conditions with your employer? The only reason annual pay deals are awarded is because the union can push for it. If you as an individual knocked on your MDs office and asked to discuss a pay rise you would be told where to go in no uncertain terms and probably marked down as a trouble maker. You certainly wouldn't get anywhere near the deals the union can get as they would be more than happy to just sack you and replace you-something harder to do when 99% of other drivers are standing together. Then once you are sacked you have no protection and will need to fund your own appeal etc. ...something the union will fund and sort on your behalf were you a member.

Then there are protection funds set up by the unions, we lost a driver a couple if years back who had an accident resulting in health issues which prevented him from ever being allowed on the footplate again. The company offered him a years wages to leave employment. The union funds made up his wages whilst he was off on sick pay and no pay to ensure he could continue to pay his mortgage and pushed the company to find other work in the company for him and as a result this driver was found a job within the company at a similar salary to a driver. A non union driver would have struggled financially when off work and probably sacked at the first opportunity.

You seem to live in a fantasy land if you honestly don't believe the unions have built the conditions of train drivers up and if you really believe you stand a chance at negotiating your own T&Cs with a toc from a frontline grade then it shows how little you understand about the industry!

 

[notadriver]

Yep look at bus drivers pay and conditions. That's what happens with no effective union. I was/am a bus driver.

 

[PeteH]

Does ASLEF, or RMT for that matter, make a contribution to labour party funds?

And if so is it possible to opt out?

Quite frankly I'd be happy to stay well away from the unions, especially looking at aslef's campaign section. I just think of it as a ~£27 per month subscription for a lawyer, in the unfortunate event that I might need one. Although, of course, I won't be joining until I qualify.

 

[A-driver]

Does ASLEF, or RMT for that matter, make a contribution to labour party funds?

And if so is it possible to opt out?

Quite frankly I'd be happy to stay well away from the unions, especially looking at aslef's campaign section. I just think of it as a ~£27 per month subscription for a lawyer, in the unfortunate event that I might need one. Although, of course, I won't be joining until I qualify.

They do fund the Labour Party at the moment but you can opt out if you wish.

It's not £27 for a lawyer if you need one, it's also to cover negotiations and improvements/protection of salary and employment conditions, protection from unfair dismissal by your employer and protection should you be involved in an incident (highly likely as a driver). One if the first things a TOC will do after an incident is pass as much blame onto the driver as possible. It takes the heat off them. The union will provide excellent support and deflect much of this blame off you.

Let's face it, £27 a month is a moderate night out, a take away curry for 2 or a cinema trip for 2 including a snack. If you compare that to the excellent employment protection it's definitely worth it.

 

[A-driver]

I strongly disagree with this also and from what you have said is as much as bullying, i.e - you cant work here unless you are in a union! Last time I read employment conditions and employment law being part of any union is NOT a job requirement.

I stand by what I said and still say it isn't bullying.

Why do most people become train drivers? Well it's not the sex, drugs &rock 'n roll lifestyle. It's generally the 45k salary for working 4days a week, excellent pension, good job security, employee benefits, travel facilities etc

Why do we have those things? Well thanks to years and years of union negotiation. I think it's only fair that if you are enjoying those benefits you contribute a small amount to the organisation who fought for and won those things in the first place and, more importantly, continue to fight for those to be protected.

If the union didn't exist, and that will happen if too many opt out of it, then those conditions and salary will very quickly diminish. The race to the bottom begins and then people start complaining that the job isn't worth it anymore.

Sorry but in this industry and in this type of work people are certainly stronger together.

 

[PeteH]

Like I said, I will be joining; I used the phrase '...subscription for a lawyer...' as a catch-all phrase for the protection that you outline.

I would be happy, of course, if the sole focus of the union was to protect their members and secure fair deals on pay and conditions, that is my opinion of entirely what a union should be about. It might be even better value for money, or cost less to join, if this was its focus.

I do not share their politics, and object to the medling in matters that are none of their concern (gathering at Aldermaston, for example).

The bullying, for that is what it surely is, of non-union members, or those who join the 'wrong' union, cannot be tolerated - the union will do itself a great deal of damage if it does not attempt to 'police' that issue and deal with it in an open and honest way. Until it does it is behaving no better than the 'ogres' in management it seeks to vilify with monotous regularity.

 

[A-driver]

Like I said, I will be joining; I used the phrase '...subscription for a lawyer...' as a catch-all phrase for the protection that you outline.

I would be happy, of course, if the sole focus of the union was to protect their members and secure fair deals on pay and conditions, that is my opinion of entirely what a union should be about. It might be even better value for money, or cost less to join, if this was its focus.

I do not share their politics, and object to the medling in matters that are none of their concern (gathering at Aldermaston, for example).

The bullying, for that is what it surely is, of non-union members, or those who join the 'wrong' union, cannot be tolerated - the union will do itself a great deal of damage if it does not attempt to 'police' that issue and deal with it in an open and honest way. Until it does it is behaving no better than the 'ogres' in management it seeks to vilify with monotous regularity.

I'm interested in why you believe there is bullying of non members and why you think they regularly attempt to vilify management? You seem to be assuming that this occurs with no actual proof or experience of the reality. I know non union drivers and whilst I don't agree with the principles, I have never ever witnessed them being bullied or in any way singled out. Infact no one ever mentions it with him.

The story up thread about the guard seems very isolated and id suggest caution with its validity as I'm certain there is far more to it and it wasn't leaving the union which caused it but the reasons leading up to leaving the union.

There may have been union lead bullying in the 80s but things have moved on since then.

 

[notadriver]

It seems the main reason people are going for train driving jobs is for the high salary, T&CS - which is thanks to the ASLEF union. I don't hear of many people going for platform staff jobs or bus driving. It's always train driving. It's a shame there isn't a requirement to do another role on the railway before applying for main line driver.

 

[ainsworth74]

What would be the benefit?

Of course some TOCs already recruit drivers almost exclusively from within the railway fraternity, East Coast and Virgin for example, can't remember the last time they advertised for trainee drivers externally.

 

[notadriver]

What would be the benefit?

Of course some TOCs already recruit drivers almost exclusively from within the railway fraternity, East Coast and Virgin for example, can't remember the last time they advertised for trainee drivers externally.

It's just my opinion - but to get railway experience. And as a side note I'm noticing some new drivers often have a poor attitude towards other railway staff

Point taken about EC and Virgin but those jobs are rare and highly sought after.

 

[A-driver]

It's just my opinion - but to get railway experience. And as a side note I'm noticing some new drivers often have a poor attitude towards other railway staff

Point taken about EC and Virgin but those jobs are rare and highly sought after.

I agree that some off the street drivers can have a certain superior attitude to 'lesser' staff which older drivers or those who climbed the ranks.

Certainly not all though.

 

[Yew]

What would be the benefit?

Of course some TOCs already recruit drivers almost exclusively from within the railway fraternity, East Coast and Virgin for example, can't remember the last time they advertised for trainee drivers externally.

Yesterday actually EC driver based in newcastle

 

[DarloRich]

There are an awful lot of people who dont have any real understanding of what a union is or does - their only knowledge is based upon their political beliefs and Daily Mail/Evening Standard type articles.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm interested in why you believe there is bullying of non members and why you think they regularly attempt to vilify management? You seem to be assuming that this occurs with no actual proof or experience of the reality. I know non union drivers and whilst I don't agree with the principles, I have never ever witnessed them being bullied or in any way singled out. Infact no one ever mentions it with him.

There is a problem with it. Well run depots stay on top of it, but it exists. Obviously there is nothing to be done about the casual 'non-formal' arrangements or lack thereof, ie not helping out, but when there are physical attempts to segregate the messroom and even the printed roster, you have to ask is what these crew enforcing any better than what they are allegedly trying to defend?

I'm all for union representation; I am a trade union member. But just as important as the choice and freedom to join a trade union is the choice and freedom not to in a union-dominated industry. And that is something that is too often forgot. In my experience, its a generational thing, and that generation is passing into retirement. The railway will be better off without such militant unionists. Not to say that everyone in that such generation *is*, but *most* such unionists are from that generation.