Electrification time scales update (North West)

[ianhr]

Its accelerating the real reason for electrification to Selby in the first place - providing an electrified diversionary route from Doncaster via Hambleton Junction and Crossgates to Leeds. Its also possible that Temple Hirst Junction via Selby to Hambleton, and Hambleton via Gascoign Wood and Sherburn to Colton Junction is on the agenda to provide a diversionary route for the 2 track Selby diversion section of the ECML.

I think the Trans-Pennine electrification is being planned at York, that is everything east of Stalybridge. It cannot all be done in one go and the idea is that the electrification team, which will be new, will gain experience by starting on the 'easy' bit east of Leeds. They will really have to get moving and let some contracts soon to have any wiring in place by Dec 2014. It will give EC some flexibility for diversions and would free up a few DMUs. Northern has 24 EMUs in West Yorks and probably with some re-diagramming could cover Leeds-York and Leeds Selby locals with electric stock, perhaps through working from Bradford F.S./Skipton/Ilkley/Doncaster and terminating DMUs from the west at Leeds (just swapping around what happens at present).

 

[Whistler40145]

If Wigan NW to Bolton is being wired, then should other short bits be done?

I would wire the following:-

Stockport-Ashton Moss North Junction/Guide Bridge.

Rose Hill Marple

Phillips Park to Ashburys (quite useful if Piccadilly gets shut).

Ashburys to Sheffield including via Guide Bridge

Hazel Grove to New Mills South Jn/Buxton

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the Trans-Pennine electrification is being planned at York, that is everything east of Stalybridge. It cannot all be done in one go and the idea is that the electrification team, which will be new, will gain experience by starting on the 'easy' bit east of Leeds. They will really have to get moving and let some contracts soon to have any wiring in place by Dec 2014. It will give EC some flexibility for diversions and would free up a few DMUs. Northern has 24 EMUs in West Yorks and probably with some re-diagramming could cover Leeds-York and Leeds Selby locals with electric stock, perhaps through working from Bradford F.S./Skipton/Ilkley/Doncaster and terminating DMUs from the west at Leeds (just swapping around what happens at present).

It has taken 2 years to wire NW phase 1 (15 miles of double track), from the point where the first foundations went in.
Phase 2 is also going to take 2 years but is twice as far (30 miles).
TP wiring east of Leeds is also 30 miles (20 Neville Hill-Selby, 10 Micklefield-Colton Jn, plus the Hambleton spurs).
5 miles of it is quad track and might need to be 100mph+ and therefore a higher spec.
A new team also has to build up productivity.
I reckon it will take the best part of 3 years to do that lot.
The only quick win I can see is Hambleton-Selby (about 5 miles) which would allow the York-Selby service to go electric, but that is only a handful of trips.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I would have thought Hunt's Cross-Trafford via the CLC line might have had a good case too.

Perhaps this has not been included because Merseyrail has yet to announce it's plans for new stock given that it is investigating running it's service through to Warrington. More likely that when this the decision on new stock is announced, it will include a joint statement from the DFT that they will partially fund additional electrification schemes such as the CLC to Warrington and beyond, Kirkby to Skelmersdale and/or Wigan, Ormskirk to Preston and Bidston/Wrexham all as part of the NW Electrification Scheme. I suppose we can expect an announcement within the next 12 months, and certainly before May 2015.

 

[westv]

The time scales seem long to someone who knows nothing about what's involved but clearly it's more than a matter of sticking a few poles up and stringing some wires between them!

 

[northwichcat]

If Wigan NW to Bolton is being wired, then should other short bits be done?

I would wire the following:-

Stockport-Ashton Moss North Junction/Guide Bridge.

Rose Hill Marple

Phillips Park to Ashburys (quite useful if Piccadilly gets shut).

Ashburys to Sheffield including via Guide Bridge

Hazel Grove to New Mills South Jn/Buxton

Marple via Bredbury is being considered for electrification as part of a tram-train scheme.

Stockport to Guide Bridge needs a regular passenger service first.

The draft electrification RUS dismissed Hazel Grove to Buxton due to the cost being too high for the number of services that would benefit from conversion, so you probably need to prove a business case for 2tph from Buxton to Manchester all day before electrification can be considered.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think the Trans-Pennine electrification is being planned at York, that is everything east of Stalybridge. It cannot all be done in one go and the idea is that the electrification team, which will be new, will gain experience by starting on the 'easy' bit east of Leeds. They will really have to get moving and let some contracts soon to have any wiring in place by Dec 2014. It will give EC some flexibility for diversions and would free up a few DMUs. Northern has 24 EMUs in West Yorks and probably with some re-diagramming could cover Leeds-York and Leeds Selby locals with electric stock, perhaps through working from Bradford F.S./Skipton/Ilkley/Doncaster and terminating DMUs from the west at Leeds (just swapping around what happens at present).

That is an interesting idea, although would Northern have enough EMU capacity to be able to extend services east of Leeds? The current timetable has a journey time for the stoppers at 39 minutes (slightly longer for the additional stop at Ulleskelf) and even though that might be dropped down a bit with EMUs operating them might it cause problems?

If there were capacity though, the most obvious route would be Bradford FS to York, assuming that both services each hour be fitted in between the TPE / XC services. This would then replace the current Blackpool-York service which could be terminated at Leeds. Unless of course the idea of extending the Blackpool service to Scarborough sticks, then perhaps just one service could extend from Bradford FS to York? Or perhaps there is scope to still run the Blackpool - Scarborough service, but stop it only at Garforth and run the two Bradford services as all stoppers?

 

[Whistler40145]

Reason I mentioned Stockport to Ashton Moss North Junction is that it gives operators an electrified diversion route through Manchester Victoria if Manchester Piccadilly is unavailable.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[edwin_m]

A Liverpool to Sheffield (via Marple) service that was passing through Adwick would be making a most unusual diversion..hock:

Oops.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I assume the idea is to run via the Philip's Park line to Victoria and then via Chat Moss. NR plans show the Philip's Park line as scheduled for electrification and I have been wondering what was behind this apart from ecs, but if the Hope Valley line is to eventually be electrified if would enable a Sheffield-ManVic-LPL diagram this way with electric traction, or even Sheffield-Blackpool?

But then it couldn't run via Warrington, which I think is where we came into this discussion...

 

[westv]

I've read that electrification could shave 30 minutes of the journey from Hull to London? Is this rubbish or does it have any accuracy considering as the track would be unchanged?

 

[IanXC]

Thanks. When you said "a limited amount of electrification around Selby" I assumed you meant too limited to complete any one of those.

I suspect the NR have set out to look at Hambleton to Neville Hill, however once the team are up and running I suspect the logic of continuing will be inescapable and see the wider aspects done.

 

[evergreenadam]

Marple via Bredbury is being considered for electrification as part of a tram-train scheme.

Stockport to Guide Bridge needs a regular passenger service first.

The draft electrification RUS dismissed Hazel Grove to Buxton due to the cost being too high for the number of services that would benefit from conversion, so you probably need to prove a business case for 2tph from Buxton to Manchester all day before electrification can be considered.

The business case issue is an interesting one, there are quite a few sections of line where electrification would only benefit 1tph such as Warrington-Chester (if TPE service extended from Manchester), ECML-Middlesborough.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The business case issue is an interesting one, there are quite a few sections of line where electrification would only benefit 1tph such as Warrington-Chester (if TPE service extended from Manchester), ECML-Middlesborough.

There have been times when only one hourly electric train ran north of Weaver Jn on the WCML (the Euston-Glasgow train).
The second/third trains became a Voyager/185 until this week or were diesel worked via Manchester.

There was a stupid period when hardly any electric trains ran Wolverhampton-Stafford.
After using electric locos for decades the Birmingham-Liverpool services went diesel (CT 170s) until the 350s arrived, and XC went Voyager.
Over the WCML most freight converted from electric to diesel in the 1990s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do I remain in a minority of one who was disappointed not to see the Calder Valley line as one of the options that will be looked at..:cry:

 

[YorkshireBear]

Do I remain in a minority of one who was disappointed not to see the Calder Valley line as one of the options that will be looked at..:cry:

Am i dissappointed? Yes. Am i surprised? No.

Paul i can assure you having done a preliminary engineering study as aprt of my uni work the route is very very very complex and will be more expensive than the Main TPE route.

 

[edwin_m]

The business case issue is an interesting one, there are quite a few sections of line where electrification would only benefit 1tph such as Warrington-Chester (if TPE service extended from Manchester), ECML-Middlesborough.

A better measure of the benefit would be the train-mileage that could be converted from diesel to electric operation, incliuding elimination of diesel running under the wires. Thus, assuming the TPE extension goes ahead, Warrington-Chester would convert an hourly train from Manchester or beyond and ECML-Middlesbrough would convert an hourly train from York, Man Airport or even London (OK maybe that wouldn't be hourly) depending on future timetables.

 

[tbtc]

A better measure of the benefit would be the train-mileage that could be converted from diesel to electric operation, incliuding elimination of diesel running under the wires. Thus, assuming the TPE extension goes ahead, Warrington-Chester would convert an hourly train from Manchester or beyond and ECML-Middlesbrough would convert an hourly train from York, Man Airport or even London (OK maybe that wouldn't be hourly) depending on future timetables.

That's the yardstick that I've tried to use in previous threads.

Basically, there are dozens of lines that we *could* electrify - but only so many resources available. Annoyingly, it'd make more sense to focus electrification in certain areas rather than the usual political "fix" of doing a little in various different parts of the country - which is bound to cause arguments!

If there's going to be more (on top of the CP5 announcement and subsequent things like Windermere, Bolton to Wigan) then it'd make more sense to do little 'infills" like Warrington Central.

 

[Darren R]

Electrifying Bolton to Wigan is a logical infill scheme, and has little impact in terms of releasing DMUs. However, does it not improve the case for Salford Crescent - Atherton - Southport being wired? Trains to Southport and services on the Atherton line are very busy - surely there is a business case? In addition it would release a considerable number of DMUs - which seems to be one of the key drivers in the current Government's electrification plans. Is this a realistic notion or pie-in-the-sky? To me it would be a logical progression (and no - I do not use any of these services! )

 

[YorkshireBear]

Electrifying Bolton to Wigan is a logical infill scheme, and has little impact in terms of releasing DMUs. However, does it not improve the case for Salford Crescent - Atherton - Southport being wired? Trains to Southport and services on the Atherton line are very busy - surely there is a business case? In addition it would release a considerable number of DMUs - which seems to be one of the key drivers in the current Government's electrification plans. Is this a realistic notion or pie-in-the-sky? To me it would be a logical progression (and no - I do not use any of these services! )

I beg to differ. This scheme is probably being done as for 37 miles you convert two services wholly to electric and reduce diesel under the wires running.

 

[BantamMenace]

Is there any reason carnforth to barrow never gets a mention? Seems common sense to try and get all TPE routes under wires within say ten years. From what I've read only barrow and Scarborough routes aren't being considered and out of the two barrow seems the more logical

 

[snowball]

This scheme is probably being done as for 37 miles you convert two services wholly to electric and reduce diesel under the wires running.

What's 37 miles? Lostock Junction to Wigan looks like about 7.

 

[Darren R]

I beg to differ. This scheme is probably being done as for 37 miles you convert two services wholly to electric and reduce diesel under the wires running.

Barely even seven miles...

Two services per hour which are only short distance trains (one of which runs through to Rochdale which wouldn't be electric anyway.) That's my point - it might release the odd Pacer or two, nothing more. It makes total sense to electrify Bolton to Wigan as part of the current Lancashire scheme, but does little in terms of releasing DMUs. Unless there are bigger schemes to come!

 

[WatcherZero]

Reroute Kirkby and Southport via Atherton, have the electric services go to Stalybridge rather than Rochdale, youve then got 2-3 diagrams made up of two DMU's for 40-50 minute journeys, thats more than half a dozen diesels released.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anyone with knowledge of TfGM matters any news on how TfGM view the line from Salford Crescent, through Atherton, to Crow Nest Junction as a possibility for Tram-Train operation ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What's 37 miles? Lostock Junction to Wigan looks like about 7.

I wonder if that 37 mile distance referred to the distance between Lostock Junction and Southport ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

i mistyped i meant 7

 

[steevp]

i mistyped i meant 7

Good job you're not an engineer or anything like that......

 

[northwichcat]

A better measure of the benefit would be the train-mileage that could be converted from diesel to electric operation, incliuding elimination of diesel running under the wires. Thus, assuming the TPE extension goes ahead, Warrington-Chester would convert an hourly train from Manchester or beyond and ECML-Middlesbrough would convert an hourly train from York, Man Airport or even London (OK maybe that wouldn't be hourly) depending on future timetables.

I imagine both York-Middlesbrough and Chester-Warrington would get a standard pattern of 2tph off-peak if electrification goes ahead. 2tph on Chester-Warrington-Manchester is included as part of the Northern Hub.

 

[evergreenadam]

I imagine both York-Middlesbrough and Chester-Warrington would get a standard pattern of 2tph off-peak if electrification goes ahead. 2tph on Chester-Warrington-Manchester is included as part of the Northern Hub.

But one of those 2tph Chester-Manchester would originate from North Wales and so could not be operated by electric stock.

 

[northwichcat]

But one of those 2tph Chester-Manchester would originate from North Wales and so could not be operated by electric stock.

There are alternatives as I've suggested here: http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1650351&postcount=31

If DfT really want to avoid a new DMU order in the next few years then they will need to look at alternatives to maximise usage of electrics. The way I suggested would allow the Mid-Cheshire line to get extra services at the busiest stations and mean instead of around 40% of passenger services on the line being operated by Pacers, it would mean around 90% of services are not Pacers. Keep the diesels on Chester-Warrington-Manchester and you'd probably increase the number of Pacers on the Mid-Cheshire line as extra services would provided by Pacers released by electrification elsewhere.

 

[edwin_m]

Has anyone with knowledge of TfGM matters any news on how TfGM view the line from Salford Crescent, through Atherton, to Crow Nest Junction as a possibility for Tram-Train operation ?

It's a possibility but lower down the list than something like Marple. Since there are two other routes from Wigan to Manchester, tram-train could involve outright conversion of Salford Crescent to Crow Nest to Metrolink, with sharing only between Crow Nest and Wigan.