Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Lankyline]

Its not just about direct to Scotland connections that run via Chorley, yes changing trains at Preston isn't a hardship to most people, but you still have Blackpool - Manchester, Transpenine Leeds / York (or will that permanently go via Wigan ?) Man Airport, plus all those beloved commuters / students who travel to Manchester every day and the trains are overcrowded in both rush hours.

Going via Wigan isn't solving the problems that already exist for Chorley / Bolton passengers, the only hope is for the timetable to reinstate the "lost" services when electrification is done.

 

[WatcherZero]

While the headline services to Scotland are good for Bolton and will be missed, the truth is that far more Boltonians would like additional capacity to Blackburn and more capacity to Manchester on a daily basis to reducing crowding. Replacement capacity for the lost TPE services will come with electrification. The most crowded service through Bolton is currently the Southport services and if TPE can attract people going to Wigan off the Southport services its more capacity for Manchester and Bolton passengers that want to use them.

Its not just the linespeed improvements, at the end of day despite the longer route the journey times will remain broadly similar to each other, removing the intercity service from the Bolton line will however also increase service resillience for the TPE service and for all Bolton line services and reduce incidences of services getting stuck behind each other when attempting to run express, semi-fast and stopper services on the same line. The Bolton line is pretty full and the path is now available for improvements to local services with Blackburn the favoured choice for a future replacement service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The timetable is anticipated to be far greater upon completion of electrification.

 

[Francis]

Yes, but completion of electrification is three years off. Is everyone travelling between Bolton and Manchester expected to stand for the next three years?

Caught the 09.21 from Chorley (ex-Blackpool) to M/C Airport. 6 late at Chorley, about 15 late by Man Oxford Rd. People standing from Horwich onwards. No seats at all for the crush who wanted to get on at Bolton. Obviously this is a route which needs LESS trains!!

The 10.16 TPE ex Piccadilly for Edinburgh was well loaded too, three coaches, probably 75% full with no Wigan stop. Arrived Preston 4 mins late after slow trundling past Kenyon and through Parkside Jc to Lowton and Golborne. The sharp junction there is reminiscent of Carstairs Edinburgh line.

Meanwhile go on the old southern region and you find off-peak trains with 8 coaches, maybe 10% passenger loadings, trundling around the Hants, Berks, Sussex and Surrey branches.

 

[Eagle]

Yes, but completion of electrification is three years off. Is everyone travelling between Bolton and Manchester expected to stand for the next three years?

Only the next year. By December 2014 Northern should have enough stock to run extra services on the Bolton corridor (as a result of them receiving some 319s to work Liverpool–Manchester and Liverpool–Wigan services).

 

[snail]

Caught the 09.21 from Chorley (ex-Blackpool) to M/C Airport. 6 late at Chorley, about 15 late by Man Oxford Rd. People standing from Horwich onwards. No seats at all for the crush who wanted to get on at Bolton.

That's the first off peak service of the day, £3.80 return instead of £6.10. I would expect it to be crushed this week with shoppers.

I've changed trains at Bolton around that time and later before now and never had a problem getting a seat on a Northern service. I really don't see it being an issue off peak once people get used to what's available (and people from Wigan switch to the faster TPE service, freeing up seats through Bolton).

 

[WatcherZero]

Got a point on it being the first offpeak service, I can attest that the first offpeak on the Bolton line has always been packed, usually pretty full up until around 11am.

 

[Francis]

The 0844 dep from Blackpool-Manchester Airport is not an off-peak departure from Blackpool, Poulton-le-Fylde, Preston, Buckshaw, Chorley or Horwich, where CDRs start at 09.30. So the argument that it is the first off-peak departure doesn't apply except at Bolton. It was already standing room only when it left Horwich, i.e. before arrival in Bolton.

 

[WatcherZero]

Pretty irrelevent it being peak outside GM, Blackpool to Man Airport peak is £21.30 while offpeak is £19.70 and Its the first direct train of the morning from Horwich to Manchester Airport. While in GM that service is a 1/3rd cheaper than the preceding service (£4 vs £6).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Only the next year. By December 2014 Northern should have enough stock to run extra services on the Bolton corridor (as a result of them receiving some 319s to work Liverpool–Manchester and Liverpool–Wigan services).

Apologies if this has already been covered, but what about the 185's that are presumably going to be released from the Manchester-Scotland route over the next month or two as the new electric trains take over? Wouldn't it have made sense for a couple of those to be used to provide congestion relief for Chorley-Bolton-Manchester in the meantime?

 

[Eagle]

A couple of them will be for a short while at least, but they'll all be needed elsewhere for the improved North TP timetable in May.

 

[mwmbwls]

Got a point on it being the first offpeak service, I can attest that the first offpeak on the Bolton line has always been packed, usually pretty full up until around 11am.

IIRC the ability of Greater Manchester pensioners to use their bus passes to travel on local area trains also skews the figures.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

IIRC the ability of Greater Manchester pensioners to use their bus passes to travel on local area trains also skews the figures.

On Monday to Friday, the validity of the ENCTS pass issued by TfGM does not start until 0930, which is surely outside the morning peak travel period.

 

[WatcherZero]

Thats the point, they board the first elligible train causing a spike in the first few offpeak services thats effectively a prolonging of peak loads.

 

[Moonshot]

IIRC the ability of Greater Manchester pensioners to use their bus passes to travel on local area trains also skews the figures.

What is IIRC?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What is IIRC?

If I remember correctly (IIRC).

 

[Moonshot]

If I remember correctly (IIRC).

Lol !! i m still stuck in the 19th century !!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's the point, they board the first eligible train causing a spike in the first few offpeak services thats effectively a prolonging of peak loads.

But at least those travelling by rail with a NORMAL work starting time will not find themselves to be inconvenienced, as the 0930 eligibility time for the TfGM-issued ENCTS pass was supposed to have been set with that particular point in mind.

TfGM-issued ENCTS passes are also allowed for rail travel usage (subject to the previously stated time Monday to Friday embargo) within an agreed TfGM boundary area in addition to bus and tram services. Do all the large PTE offer free rail travel in that same stipulated time period within the confines of their own defined area ?

 

[Philip]

Is it true the linespeed is being upgraded between Manchester and Preston? It said so on the BBC article a couple of months ago but I haven't seen anything elsewhere.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Is it true the linespeed is being upgraded between Manchester and Preston? It said so on the BBC article a couple of months ago but I haven't seen anything elsewhere.

Sort of. Probably. Details are yet to be completely finalised; however your question is quite hard to answer because now that all speed changes are signed on the ground, there isn't really a "linespeed" any more. However, I take the question to be "will passenger trains be able to travel at a speed greater than the current maximum of 75mph on some part of the route" then definitely yes.

 

[thealexweb]

A couple of them will be for a short while at least, but they'll all be needed elsewhere for the improved North TP timetable in May.

That is something that bugs me. By May TPX will have 8 spare 185s so rather than lengthen Bolton's remaining services to six coaches they are starting up new routes. Why are experimenting with new routes when they cant handle demand for their current services

 

[Eagle]

That is something that bugs me. By May TPX will have 8 spare 185s so rather than lengthen Bolton's remaining services to six coaches they are starting up new routes. Why are experimenting with new routes when they cant handle demand for their current services

It's not a new route at all, it's strengthening an existing route. The overcrowding on Manchester to Leeds is much worse than Manchester to Preston, so I'd say it's the best use of their stock.

 

[thealexweb]

It's not a new route at all, it's strengthening an existing route. The overcrowding on Manchester to Leeds is much worse than Manchester to Preston, so I'd say it's the best use of their stock.

Well its sort of a new route or merging two existing routes together and changing the stations called at e.g. Manchester Victoria.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well its sort of a new route or merging two existing routes together and changing the stations called at e.g. Manchester Victoria.

Its relieving the Liverpool-York corridor with an extra service. That is its point, it is also the start of preparing for the almost complete transfer of TPE to Victoria.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Its relieving the Liverpool-York corridor with an extra service. That is its point, it is also the start of preparing for the almost complete transfer of TPE to Victoria.

But First TPE services starting from Manchester Airport will still pass through Manchester Piccadilly. I am aware that the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service will become a Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle service, but I am unaware of further First TPE services that will give up using Manchester Airport, much as certain forum members wish were that case.

 

[HowardGWR]

But First TPE services starting from Manchester Airport will still pass through Manchester Piccadilly. I am aware that the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service will become a Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle service, but I am unaware of further First TPE services that will give up using Manchester Airport, much as certain forum members wish were that case.

Paul, you make a point there which I will deal with by opening a new thread called 'Airport stations that are not through stations'.

 

[edwin_m]

But First TPE services starting from Manchester Airport will still pass through Manchester Piccadilly. I am aware that the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service will become a Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle service, but I am unaware of further First TPE services that will give up using Manchester Airport, much as certain forum members wish were that case.

The Manchester Airport TPE services will use Piccadilly platforms 13/14 then round the Ordsall Chord and through Victoria. I believe the number of Airport trains will remain as today.

 

[snail]

The Manchester Airport TPE services will use Piccadilly platforms 13/14 then round the Ordsall Chord and through Victoria. I believe the number of Airport trains will remain as today.

They are adding a 4th platform at Manchester Airport so I would expect some increase in the number of services.

 

[calc7]

That is something that bugs me. By May TPX will have 8 spare 185s so rather than lengthen Bolton's remaining services to six coaches they are starting up new routes. Why are experimenting with new routes when they cant handle demand for their current services

Also a commercial decision I imagine - far more lucrative to put on the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds corridor than pander to short hop commuters paying artificially low PTE fares.

 

[Eagle]

The Manchester Airport TPE services will use Piccadilly platforms 13/14 then round the Ordsall Chord and through Victoria.

Or platforms 15/16 when those get built, of course.